Garron Posted 19 November , 2013 Share Posted 19 November , 2013 Afternoon ArthurDoes it mention when the 38th Welsh Divisions battalion patches were put into use and if it was both shoulders or just one?I know the Divisional Dragon patch comes about in 1917 but I don't know if it is just one shoulder or both for the Battalion patches before that.CheersGaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 20 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Good morning Gaz, From the information that I have it was worn on the left sleeve and the redundant battle patches were then worn on the helmet cover. Hope this help. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbremner Posted 6 December , 2013 Share Posted 6 December , 2013 Hello Arthur,Do you have any information on cloth insignia used by the 23rd or 24th (Sportsman's) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers? In one of F Mackain's "Sketches of Tommy's Life" postcards, the soldier appears to be wearing a cloth shoulder insignia ending in "F". Given that he served in the 23rd (Fisrt Sportsman's) regiment, wondering if this is "23 RF" or "First Sportsman's RF", or similar. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 6 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2013 Hi, The only information I have is as follows: 23rd Bn. Blue-grey silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt 24th Bn. Green silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt As for the cloth shoulder title I only have information on the 9th Bn's and it is given as a slip on shoulder title with blue letters “9.R.F.” embroidered on grey felt. Sorry I cannot be of more help. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbremner Posted 7 December , 2013 Share Posted 7 December , 2013 Thanks Arthur! Very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFL1888 Posted 26 January , 2014 Share Posted 26 January , 2014 Hi Arthur, I hope you could help me out with a couple of units related to Sheffield. Firstly the unit my great grandfather served in - the 1/4th (Hallamshire) York and Lancaster. I know from other research this was a simple red rectangle but I was wondering if your sources could confirm the size of the patch as I am looking to reproduce these for a replica uniform. Second unit is the 12th (Sheffield City) York and Lancaster. These were in the 31st Div and I wonder if you could help me out with both div and battalion patch as I have no information on either. Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Kindest regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 27 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2014 Hi Arthur, I hope you could help me out with a couple of units related to Sheffield. Firstly the unit my great grandfather served in - the 1/4th (Hallamshire) York and Lancaster. I know from other research this was a simple red rectangle but I was wondering if your sources could confirm the size of the patch as I am looking to reproduce these for a replica uniform. Second unit is the 12th (Sheffield City) York and Lancaster. These were in the 31st Div and I wonder if you could help me out with both div and battalion patch as I have no information on either. Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Kindest regards, Martin Hello Martin, Before seeing your query about the 1st/4th Bn. (Hallamshire) York and Lancs Regt. I had no information for this unit. However, finding out that they wore the red horizontal rectangle on the collar which I later found out to be the Bde shape, I then checked out the other units in 148th Bde, 49th Div and found the following information: 1st/4th 3X2 [From your information] Sorry that I cannot be any help with this unit. 1st/5th York & Lancs Regt Light blue rectangle 2X1 Felt 1st /4th K.O.Y.L.I. Green rectangle 2½X1½ Felt. Worn on the collar. 1st/5th K.O.Y.L.I. Buff rectangle 2X1 Felt. 94th Bde 31st Div. 12th (Sheffield City) York and Lancs Regt. Green disc 1. Felt. It was worn below the Bde sign 1 square halved horizontally top half red bottom half white Felt. Worn on the back below the collar Formation signs plus information on 31st Inf. Div. Hope that the information is of help. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFL1888 Posted 27 January , 2014 Share Posted 27 January , 2014 Good evening Arthur, My sincere thanks for taking the time to post and providing me with the information, regarding the size of the Hallamshire patches I am wondering if the 3 x2 size as recorded by Grant (who wrote a history of the unit post war) is correct, I cut a paper mock patch to these dimensions and the 2 inch height was way bigger than the height of the collar on my SD jacket and simply would never have fit. My thoughts on this were that Grant was writing this from recollection and estimated the sizes, and was hoping your source may have had the official size recorded. The sizes on the other units in the brigade is extremely useful as it shows none of the heights over 1 1/2 inches which accords with what would fit the collar and I thank you for posting this. As the 1/5 were quite literally the sister Bn I would think that size as most likely - on the flip side of the coin of course the bigger size may have been the influence on Grant thinking these were larger! I may be flipping a coin of my own!! Thank you also for the Sheffield City Bn information. I hadn't seen the players cards "in the flesh" before so this is most interesting. I have a jacket I am trying to make up as an accurate Hallamshire or City Battalion display so many thanks for your time and assistance. Kindest regards Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 28 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2014 Good evening Arthur, My sincere thanks for taking the time to post and providing me with the information, regarding the size of the Hallamshire patches I am wondering if the 3 x2 size as recorded by Grant (who wrote a history of the unit post war) is correct, I cut a paper mock patch to these dimensions and the 2 inch height was way bigger than the height of the collar on my SD jacket and simply would never have fit. My thoughts on this were that Grant was writing this from recollection and estimated the sizes, and was hoping your source may have had the official size recorded. The sizes on the other units in the brigade is extremely useful as it shows none of the heights over 1 1/2 inches which accords with what would fit the collar and I thank you for posting this. As the 1/5 were quite literally the sister Bn I would think that size as most likely - on the flip side of the coin of course the bigger size may have been the influence on Grant thinking these were larger! I may be flipping a coin of my own!! Thank you also for the Sheffield City Bn information. I hadn't seen the players cards "in the flesh" before so this is most interesting. I have a jacket I am trying to make up as an accurate Hallamshire or City Battalion display so many thanks for your time and assistance. Kindest regards Martin Hello Martin, I dont really know whether, or not if the information that I have given below is going to be of help to you, or a hindrance! Apart from the information I have add my thoughts to it. 187th Bde, 62nd Div 2nd/4th Bn, York & Lancs Regt Amber diamond 3X2 Felt 2nd/5th Bn, York & Lancs Green diamond 3X2 Felt 2nd/4th Bn, K.O.Y.L.I. Dark blue diamond 3X2 Felt 2nd/5th Bn, K.O.Y.L.I. I dont have any information on this unit. However, I would presume that it was also a diamond 3X2 Felt beings as the diamond was the brigades shape. When I looked to see what colours systems had been used by 185th and 186th Bdes. I found the following information: 185th Bde 2nd/5th Bn, West Yorkshire Regt Blue disc 1½ diameter Felt 2nd/6th Bn, West Yorkshire Regt Red disc 2 diameter Felt 2nd/7th Bn, West Yorkshire Regt Yellow disc 2 diameter Felt 2nd/8th Bn, West Yorkshire Regt Green disc 2 diameter Felt 186th Bde 2nd/4th Bn, Duke of Wellington's Regt Blue rectangle 2X1 Felt 2nd/5th Bn, Duke of Wellington's Regt Red rectangle 2½X1½ Felt 2nd/6th Bn, Duke of Wellington's Regt Yellow rectangle 2½X1½ Felt 2nd /7th Bn, Duke of Wellington's Regt Green rectangle 2½X1½ Felt Returning back to the 2nd/5th Bn, K.O.Y.L.I. I would therefore think that it is fair to presume that the diamond was a red one! So you might well ask why I have gone through all this when you havent asked for it! The answer to that question would be. The 2nd/4th Bn, York & Lancs Regt had been given two references of what they wore, you have the first one an amber diamond. The second reference states that they also wore a Red Rectangle 1½X½ Felt! Could it belong the 1st/4th Bn, York & Lancs Regt and not the 2nd/4th Bn? I'm afraid to say that I dont have an answer to it, but, by going and checking out the rest of the units that served in the 185th, 186th and 187th Bdes I found that none wore a rectangle. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFL1888 Posted 28 January , 2014 Share Posted 28 January , 2014 Hi Arthur, Indeed this is useful and my thanks once again for taking the time and trouble over this. I am fast learning that much can be gleaned by deducing or from reading into what isn't said and as you note the rectangle references for the 2/4 Hallamshire doesn't make sense when the wider view across the whole division is looked at, it really doesn't fit the pattern. Added to this the presence of a fairly comprehensive answer to the 1917 survey (less the sizes in the part of the document I have!!) the absence of the 1/4 seems a strange omission to the sources. To my knowledge the 2/4 didn't transfer in or out of the 62nd Div or switch Bde so a double entry doesn't seem to make sense as this would infer some change of formation at some point. Feels like problem solved to me! My sincerest thanks for taking the time to both ponder over this one and for looking so thoroughly to help me out. Kindest regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saffron Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 I have the following information regarding 'Cloth Formation Insignia': Major John Waring's Identification Pamphlet for WWI. It is a Military Heraldry Society publication which has now been long out of print. Details of British, Australian and Canadian insignia are given. They are shown, with a reference to the colour, size and material that they are made from. If this would assist anyone? I would be willing to search it for any queries they may have. Arthur I would very much like to know what material the blue circle worn by the 1st South Staffordshire reg. 1916 high wood, was made from? and if indeed they wore any other Patches along side this? I would very much like to know what material the blue circle worn by the 1st South Staffordshire reg. 1916 high wood, was made from? and if indeed they wore any other Patches along side this? Many thanks Saffron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saffron Posted 22 May , 2014 Share Posted 22 May , 2014 I have the following information regarding 'Cloth Formation Insignia': Major John Waring's Identification Pamphlet for WWI. It is a Military Heraldry Society publication which has now been long out of print. Details of British, Australian and Canadian insignia are given. They are shown, with a reference to the colour, size and material that they are made from. If this would assist anyone? I would be willing to search it for any queries they may have. Arthur Hello Arthur, apologies I've already posted (Im new to this forum so am only just figuring out how it works). I would also be interested in the size of the Blue circle worn By the !st Souths staffordshire 1916 Best Saffron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 2 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2014 Hello Arthur, apologies I've already posted (Im new to this forum so am only just figuring out how it works). I would also be interested in the size of the Blue circle worn By the !st Souths staffordshire 1916 Best Saffron Hello Saffron, Your query re: 1st Bn South Staffordshire Regt. In the source that my information comes from there are two battalion flashes shown. [1] Blue Disc 2" diameter Felt. [Andrew Thornton gave this flash as being worn during July 1916 whilst attached to the 7th Inf Div.] [2] Pink Disc 1½" diameter Cotton. I trust that this information will be of help. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbremner Posted 12 January , 2015 Share Posted 12 January , 2015 Arthur, the chap in this illustration by Fergus Mackain is wearing the blue-green grenade of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers on his back. He also has a red square on his backpack, which I think is his brigade indicator (99th, part of 2nd Division) and a blue flash on his epaulette, which I assume is his company. Can you provide any further clarification? Many thanks, William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 17 January , 2015 Share Posted 17 January , 2015 Arthur, the chap in this illustration by Fergus Mackain is wearing the blue-green grenade of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers on his back. He also has a red square on his backpack, which I think is his brigade indicator (99th, part of 2nd Division) and a blue flash on his epaulette, which I assume is his company. Can you provide any further clarification? Many thanks, William Further to the earlier post about the 23rd RF grenade, this was worn right up to 1918. I used to own a tunic (posted by another member in a related thread) to a named officer in this battalion which had blue service chevrons, indicating a date not earlier than 1918. Waring's pamphlets are a hugely useful resource, but they are not always completely accurate and this should always be borne in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbremner Posted 18 January , 2015 Share Posted 18 January , 2015 Further to the earlier post about the 23rd RF grenade, this was worn right up to 1918. I used to own a tunic (posted by another member in a related thread) to a named officer in this battalion which had blue service chevrons, indicating a date not earlier than 1918. Waring's pamphlets are a hugely useful resource, but they are not always completely accurate and this should always be borne in mind. Good to know, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 27 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2015 Arthur, the chap in this illustration by Fergus Mackain is wearing the blue-green grenade of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers on his back. He also has a red square on his backpack, which I think is his brigade indicator (99th, part of 2nd Division) and a blue flash on his epaulette, which I assume is his company. Can you provide any further clarification? Many thanks, William Good morning William, Thank you for your enquiry and I sincerely apologise for the delay in answering it. However, now that I am answering it I am sorry to say that I cannot add anything further to the information that you already have. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juanage Posted 20 March , 2015 Share Posted 20 March , 2015 I have the following information regarding 'Cloth Formation Insignia':Major John Waring's Identification Pamphlet for WWI. It is a MilitaryHeraldry Society publication which has now been long out of print. Details of British, Australian and Canadian insignia are given. They areshown, with a reference to the colour, size and material that they are made from. If this would assist anyone? I would be willing to search it for anyqueries they may have. Arthur Arthur, Would you possibly have any info on 37th Bn MGC and any patches relating to any MGC unit in the 3rd army. Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 23 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2015 Arthur, Would you possibly have any info on 37th Bn MGC and any patches relating to any MGC unit in the 3rd army. Many Thanks Good day Juanage, I am sorry to inform you that the 37th MGC isn't amongst the items that are mentioned in the pamphlet. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Juanage Posted 13 April , 2015 Share Posted 13 April , 2015 Arthur, Thanks for looking. I am clutching at straws at the moment. All I can really say is that my grandfather was probably with the 3rd Army and possibly with the 6th Division, judging by some of the place names he used to recall. I have a single photograph which shows a divisional patch on the arm of a comrade. It is difficult to see. Anyway, thanks again for looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 15 March , 2016 Share Posted 15 March , 2016 Arthur or anyone else who might be able to help. this is from a query to the RWF museum regarding the following Bn's of the RWF. 1 Battalion serving with 22 Brigade, 7 Division. 2 Battalion serving with 19 Brigade, 33 Division. 1/4 Battalion serving with 47 (London) Division as pioneer battalion. 1/7 Battalion serving with 158 Brigade, 53 (Welsh) Division. Any information on the coloured signs/flashes worn by these four battalions will be greatly appreciated and I can pass the answers on to the museum to share with the person asking them. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 15 March , 2016 Share Posted 15 March , 2016 (edited) On 19/05/2008 at 18:39, Ian Robertson said: Hello, I have this cloth insignia badge which was in a box of memorabilia, most of which had belonged to 19333, 2nd Lt Alexander Kilpatrick Collins of the 12/13 Northumberland Fusiliers KiA on the 29th May 1918. Canyou identify it? It is approx 45mm x 60mm Thanks in advance regards Ian Insignia.jpg ALFSEA Allied Land Forces South East Asia. WW2. Edited 20 August , 2016 by high wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 17 March , 2016 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2016 As stated by High Wood Allied Land Forces South East Asia Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 17 March , 2016 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2016 Arthur or anyone else who might be able to help. this is from a query to the RWF museum regarding the following Bn's of the RWF. 1 Battalion serving with 22 Brigade, 7 Division. 2 Battalion serving with 19 Brigade, 33 Division. 1/4 Battalion serving with 47 (London) Division as pioneer battalion. 1/7 Battalion serving with 158 Brigade, 53 (Welsh) Division. Any information on the coloured signs/flashes worn by these four battalions will be greatly appreciated and I can pass the answers on to the museum to share with the person asking them. Jerry Jerry Sorry my man I don't have information on those Bns. a1st/5th b1st/5th 1st/6th 8th 9th 13th 14th 15th 16th 17th 19th a24th b24th 25th Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 19 March , 2016 Share Posted 19 March , 2016 Arthur,can you help with the attached insignia - possibly a unit within 39 Division (the blue/white stripes are 39 Div, the 2 red triangles are a puzzle......brigade, RE, MGC?) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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