'Cloth Insignia'

[Arthur]

I have a nice pair of 2nd Battalion Royal Berkshire flashes worn after Feb 1918, Red diagonal on green square in felt. Ive had them in my collection 12 years. JG

Hi John,

Thankyou for showing me your formation signs of 2nd Bn. R. Berkshire Regt. They look in great condition.

Regards

Arthur

[Guest Robbmillett]

Dear Arthur,

I read your item below regarding the insignia publication of John Waring. I would be very grateful if you could provide me with this Identification Pamphlet.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

With kind regards,

Robert van Dijk

The Netherlands

I have the following information regarding 'Cloth Formation Insignia':

Major John Waring's Identification Pamphlet for WWI. It is a Military

Heraldry Society publication which has now been long out of print.

Details of British, Australian and Canadian insignia are given. They are

shown, with a reference to the colour, size and material that they are made from.

If this would assist anyone? I would be willing to search it for any

queries they may have.

Arthur

[Arthur]

Dear Arthur,

I read your item below regarding the insignia publication of John Waring. I would be very grateful if you could provide me with this Identification Pamphlet.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

With kind regards,

Robert van Dijk

The Netherlands

Hello Robert,

I am sorry but I cannot provide you with the I-d Pamphlet. However, I am willing to check out anything that might be of help to you.

Regards

Arthur

[danny_81]

Hello Arthur

I'm new in the forum, I'm french: sorry if my english is bad

I hope that is the good topic, I was thinking that you could help me

I such information for this green patch

In the magazine, it's a soldier of the welsh regiment in the 38th division in 1918, it's write that the patch is for make a difference with the other batallion of the welsh regiment in the division

Have you got many information for the type of patch? A friend has find that it exist regimental colour but not information for batallion patch

Do you now a list with the different color insignia of english batallion? (I want to know if exist colour patch of this type for the royal fusiliers regiment and royal fusilier batallion)

thanks

[trooper23]

Arthur

Just come across this thread excellent stuff

Any info on the 9th (Service) Btn Scottish Rifles by any chance?

Thanks in advance

Jerry

[Arthur]

Arthur

Just come across this thread excellent stuff

Any info on the 9th (Service) Btn Scottish Rifles by any chance?

Thanks in advance

Jerry

Hello Jerry,

Sorry to disappoint you as I have nothing relating to the Bn.

Regards

Arthur

[Arthur]

Hello Arthur

I'm new in the forum, I'm french: sorry if my english is bad

I hope that is the good topic, I was thinking that you could help me

I such information for this green patch

In the magazine, it's a soldier of the welsh regiment in the 38th division in 1918, it's write that the patch is for make a difference with the other batallion of the welsh regiment in the division

Have you got many information for the type of patch? A friend has find that it exist regimental colour but not information for batallion patch

Do you now a list with the different color insignia of english batallion? (I want to know if exist colour patch of this type for the royal fusiliers regiment and royal fusilier batallion)

thanks

Danny

I'll be in touch, as your questions need some sorting out. Also, your English is better than my French!

Regards

Arthur

[Arthur]

Hello Danny

I such information for this green patch Welsh/Welch Regt 15th Bn Green 2” diam disc, Felt

In the magazine, it's a soldier of the welsh regiment in the 38th division in 1918, it's write that the patch is for make a difference with the other batallion of the welsh regiment in the division.

Welsh Battalions, 38th Inf Div:

113 Bde

Royal Welsh Fusiliers 13th Red triangle 2” sides Felt

Royal Welsh Fusiliers 14th Dark blue triangle 2” sides Felt

Royal Welsh Fusiliers 15th Yellow triangle 2” sides Felt

Royal Welsh Fusiliers 16th Green triangle 2” sides Felt

114 Bde

Welsh/Welch Regt 10th Red 2” diam disc, Felt

Welsh/Welch Regt 13th Blue 2” diam disc, Felt

Welsh/Welch Regt 14th Yellow 2” diam disc, Felt

Welsh/Welch Regt 15th Green 2” diam disc, Felt

115 Bde

Royal Welsh Fusiliers 17th Dull pink square 1½” sides Felt

S. Wales Borderers 10th Pink tower on green rectangle Embroided on felt

S. Wales Borderers 11th Light blue tower on dark blue rectangle Embroided on felt

Welsh/Welch Regt 16th Dark red square 1½” sides Felt

Do you now a list with the different color insignia of english batallion? (I want to know if exist colour patch of this type for the royal fusiliers regiment and royal fusilier batallion)

Royal Fusilier Battalions:

Royal Fusiliers 1st Red cross 3½” Felt

Royal Fusiliers a2nd Dark red [top] & ark blue diamond worn on back of shoulder, up to March 1916. Felt

Royal Fusiliers b2nd Dark red [top] & dark blue square worn on back of collar, after March 1916. Felt

Royal Fusiliers 3rd Yellow horizontal rectangle 3”X½” Felt

Royal Fusiliers 4th Dark red [top] & dark blue square worn on shoulder straps Felt

Royal Fusiliers a7th Dark red [top] & dark blue rectangle divided by dark blue [top] yellow and dark red [bottom] lines Ribbon

Royal Fusiliers b7th Dark red [top] & Dark blue square with central divided yellow stripe

Royal Fusiliers 8th Red disc 2½” diam Felt

Royal Fusiliers 9th Slip on shoulder title, blue letters on grey “9.R.F.” Emb on felt

Royal Fusiliers 10th Dark blue 2” diam disc, with Coy bars below: A Coy red; B Coy blue; C Coy violet and D Coy green.

Royal Fusiliers a11th Red inverted triangle with black border worn by Officers and W.Os’ felt on felt

Royal Fusiliers b11th Red arc with navy blue border, worn by O/Rs’ Felt

Royal Fusiliers 12th Red triangle 2½” sides Felt

Royal Fusiliers 17th Red silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt

Royal Fusiliers 18th Red horizontal rectangle 3¼”X1¼” Cotton

Royal Fusiliers 19th Violet horizontal rectangle 3¼”X1¼” Cotton

Royal Fusiliers 20th Blue horizontal rectangle 3¼”X1¼” Cotton

Royal Fusiliers 21st Green horizontal rectangle 3¼”X1¼” Cotton

Royal Fusiliers a22nd Yellow horizontal rectangle 3¼”X1¼” Cotton

Royal Fusiliers b22nd Yellow silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt

Royal Fusiliers 23rd Blue-grey silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt

Royal Fusiliers 24th Green silhouette of grenade worn on back 1915-16 Felt

Royal Fusiliers 38th Purple Star of David on khaki background Emb on felt

Royal Fusiliers 39th Red Star of David on khaki background Emb on felt

Royal Fusiliers 40th Blue Star of David on khaki background Emb on felt

Hope this answers your query.

Regards

Arthur

[whiterose]

Hi Arthur,

Just wondered if all regiments had battalion patches?I am interested in the East Yorkshire Regiment and the 10th and 11th Battalions in particular.Perhaps you can clarify the matter?

George.

[certacito79]

Hi Arthur,

Amazing of you to do this.

Anything for the Suffolk Regiment?

John

[Arthur]

Hi Arthur,

Just wondered if all regiments had battalion patches?I am interested in the East Yorkshire Regiment and the 10th and 11th Battalions in particular.Perhaps you can clarify the matter?

George.

Hi George,,

Most regiments do have some battalion identification insignia like those that have been answered previously. Some regiments do have far more information than others, and there are quite large gaps where they have not been recorded, or, I just don't possess the information. However, someone else on the Forum might know!

As for the East Yorkshire Regiment! I do have information on the 10th and 11th Bns plus:

East Yorkshire Regt Slip on title. White letters "E. YORK" on khaki Emb on felt

East Yorkshire Regt 1st. Green square 1" sides Cotton

East Yorkshire Regt 4th. Yellow rectangle 2½"X2" Cotton

East Yorkshire Regt 6th. White letter P on light blue diamond Emb on cotton

East Yorkshire Regt 7th. Red horizontal rectangle with white central stripe with black central line 3"X 1¼" Ribbon

East Yorkshire Regt a8th. H.Q. Coy green five point star Felt

East Yorkshire Regt b8th. A. Coy green square I½" sides Felt

East Yorkshire Regt c8th. B. Coy green triangle I½" sides Felt

East Yorkshire Regt d8th. C. Coy green diamond I½" sides Felt

East Yorkshire Regt e8th. D. Coy green disc I½" diam Felt

East Yorkshire Regt 10th. Red vertical bar below a red [top] and white Bde sign Felt

East Yorkshire Regt 11th. Red two vertical bars below a red [top] and white Bde sign Felt

East Yorkshire Regt 12th. Red three vertical bars below a red [top] and white Bde sign Felt

East Yorkshire Regt 13th. Red "IV" on khaki rectangle below a red [top] and white Bde sign Felt

Hope this helps.

Regards

Arthur

[whiterose]

Arthur,

That information certainly helps.

Thanks,

George.

[Arthur]

Hi Arthur,

Amazing of you to do this.

Anything for the Suffolk Regiment?

John

Hello John,

Here is the information on the Suffolks:

Suffolk Regiment 2nd Black square on yellow horizontal rectangle, Coy colours worn on shoulders straps information not given Felt

Suffolk Regiment 1st/5th Red left and yellow triangle Felt

Suffolk Regiment 8th Red top and yellow inverted triangle Felt

Suffolk Regiment 9th Blue triangle 3” base 2½” sides Felt

Suffolk Regiment a11th Yellow rectangle 2½”X¾” worn on shoulders Braid

Suffolk Regiment b11th Dark blue triangle 1½” sides Felt

Suffolk Regiment 12th Dark blue diamond with vertical central blue stripe Felt

Hope it helps.

Regards

Arthur

[trooper23]

Arthur

Re 9th (Service) Btn Scottish Rifles

Thanks for looking much appreciated

Jerry

[certacito79]

Arthur,

You are a star, many thanks

John

[Roger Thompson]

Hi Arthur,

Have you anything on the York and Lancaster Regiment, the main one bieng the 7th Battalion(Pioneers), there Division where the 17th(Northern) which bore the Red Dot and Dash, but under the shoulder epilette of a photo of my granddad there appears to a cross type of figure, any ideas.

There is a photo of a group of serjeants on the Soldiers section of the forum and there are wearing Diamond patches, the only help I can give is that one of the serjeants was in the 3rd Battalion Y&L's, they where a Reserve Battalion but he went abroad but we don't know with which Battalion or Regiment.

Cheers Roger.

[Arthur]

Hi Arthur,

Have you anything on the York and Lancaster Regiment, the main one bieng the 7th Battalion(Pioneers), there Division where the 17th(Northern) which bore the Red Dot and Dash, but under the shoulder epilette of a photo of my granddad there appears to a cross type of figure, any ideas.

There is a photo of a group of serjeants on the Soldiers section of the forum and there are wearing Diamond patches, the only help I can give is that one of the serjeants was in the 3rd Battalion Y&L's, they where a Reserve Battalion but he went abroad but we don't know with which Battalion or Regiment.

Cheers Roger.

Hi Roger,

My information gives the following:

7th. Bn. Black felt strip over a red felt strip. X worn in 1916.

Sorry to say I have nothing recorded for the 3rd. Bn.

2nd/4th. Bn. Amber diamond 3"X 2" Felt.

2nd/5th. Bn. Green diamond 3"X 2" Felt.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Arthur

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Arthur, you are a star, answered my questions in full, my mind is at rest now as the 7th's as bugged my for about 3years.

Next time your in Skindles I'll get you a drink or two.

Cheers Roger.

[yellow]

Hi Arthur,

Do you know who wore three red feathers of the Prince of wales on a green circular backing?

Thank you.

[Arthur]

Hi Arthur,

Do you know who wore three red feathers of the Prince of wales on a green circular backing?

Thank you.

Hi,

As far as I know the formation sign that you describe is for North Wales and Mid-West District. [Western Command] The formation sign is not amongst any that I have recorded for WWl.

Lt Col Howard N. Cole 'Heraldry in War Formation Badges 1939 - 1945': "The Prince of Wales feathers, in red on a dark green circle, was the badge of North Wales District. The district was redesignated Midland West District in 1944 when part of the former West Lancashire District was absorbed into its boundaries."

To help with what units might have worn the flash I have taken this excerpt from Frederick's Lineage:

1905 Grouped Regimental District: Welsh Border, HQ Shrewsbury. In 1907 District 4 HQ Shrewsbury.

Regt's allocated to District: Cheshire, R.W Fus, S.W.B, S. Lancs [1907+] Welch and K.S.L.I.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Arthur

[yellow]

Thank you for your time Arthur. I found this badge with some others which I knew to be WW1. I was looking at books from the incorrect period. Thank you again.

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Arthur,

The info from your booklet on the Suffolks is not very accurate. I hope this will help:

(Surviving examples seen are mostly made of melton cloth unless otherwise stated)

1st Battalion:

1/Suffolk wore no Battalion patches, just the 28 Div red tape at the end of the shoulder straps.

In Salonika they wore a red 3 turret castle on the turned-up sides of the slouch hats and later had a castle painted on their Brodie helmets.

2nd Battalion:

Company Colours -

W Company - Blue

X Company - Green

Y Company - Red

Z Company - Yellow

HQ Company - no colour

These colours were worn on both shoulder straps from 1915 until after the Somme battle after which they were only worn on the right shoulder (see Arras 90th Commemoration photo below).

The Battalion wore Yellow Rectangles stitched to their pack flaps but the Black Square you mention was only worn for the attack at The Bluff.

1/4th Battalion:

No insignia worn by this battalion.

1/5th Battalion:

The 1/5th wore a Red over Yellow Rectangle, never a triangle (which I believe was worn by 1/4th or 1/5th Norfolk).

These rectangles were made of red silk and yellow cotton not felt.

I have an original and plenty of photographs of them being worn on khaki serge tunics (see attached pic) as well as on khaki drill showing the differing cloth.

2/6th (Cyclist) Battalion:

In 1917 the 2/6th Battalion noted that they wore printed slip-on, white-on-khaki, shoulder titles with a brass "T" punched through the slip-on just above the word "SUFFOLK".

7th (Service) Battalion:

7/Suffolk wore no Battalion insignia at all.

8th (Service) Battalion:

The Red and Yellow inverted triangle you mention was only worn by Officers at the top of the sleeves and on their helmet covers.

Despite information to the contrary in the Osprey book the Other Ranks wore no Battalion insignia on their sleeves although they did wear the same red and yellow triangle as the Officers on hessian helmet covers but the triangles were point upwards instead of point downwards for Officers..

8/Suffolk had their own distinctive red and gold trade badges which were unique to the Battalion.

9th (Service) Battalion:

When the Battalion first arrived in France they wore a small pale blue triangle (2½" x 2½" x 2½") on the back of the tunics, just below the collar.

This was discontinued in June 1916.

11th (Service) Battalion:

The 11th certainly wore Yellow woven tape at the base of the shoulder straps. The original brass shoulder titles were "CAMBS" over "SUFFOLK". The yellow was worn behind the Suffolk.

The dark blue triangle was worn point upwards at the top of the sleeve.

Examples of original tunics have been seen with this configuration, with just the yellow, just the blue, the yellow with 34 Div chequered patch and with none at all.

12th (Service) Battalion:

Both originals I have seen are black tall diamonds with, curiously, another black diamond, slightly smaller, on top of the first black diamond with a pale blue stripe down the centre.

See photographs below.

15th (Yeomanry) Battalion:

The 74th (Yeomanry) Divisional patch (the broken spur) in Red for 230 Brigade was worn on the right sleeve. On the left was worn a green square patch with a smaller red square sewn on top and a smaller green square sewn on top of the red. It was worn diamond style with the point at the top.

There are photographs showing one or the other, both, or sometimes neither - often on the same photograph.

The Imperial War Museum conducted an extensive survey in 1917. Every unit in the army was sent a questionnaire to complete and they are often filled in with a great deal of detail. In the case of 8/Suffolk there are very detailed notes by a Battalion Officer. He mentions the 18th Division ATN, dreamed up by Sir Ivor Maxse. He points out that the familiar ATN in the circle was, in fact, designed by Maxse's successor, R P Lee (it was never worn as a cloth battle patch). In many cases examples of the actual patches were sent back with the forms. The 11/Suffolk form still has the original piece of tunic sleeve and shoulder strap with it. The 8th has an Officers hessian helmet cover with the thin inverted red and yellow triangles on each side.

The survey was rescued a few years ago and is available for study by appointment.

Cheers,

Taff

<!--quoteo(post=1200901:date=Jun 10 2009, 04:25 PM:name=Arthur)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arthur @ Jun 10 2009, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1200901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello John,

Here is the information on the Suffolks:

Suffolk Regiment 2nd Black square on yellow horizontal rectangle, Coy colours worn on shoulders straps information not given Felt

Suffolk Regiment 1st/5th Red left and yellow triangle Felt

Suffolk Regiment 8th Red top and yellow inverted triangle Felt

Suffolk Regiment 9th Blue triangle 3” base 2½” sides Felt

Suffolk Regiment a11th Yellow rectangle 2½”X¾” worn on shoulders Braid

Suffolk Regiment b11th Dark blue triangle 1½” sides Felt

Suffolk Regiment 12th Dark blue diamond with vertical central blue stripe Felt

Hope it helps.

Regards

Arthur<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Chief_Chum]

2/Suffolk, Wellington Caves Arras, showing the blue and green shoulder straps of W and X Companies as they would have been on Easter Sunday 1917...

[Chief_Chum]

Original 1/5th Suffolk patch - very faded and the red silk is now starting to crumble...

.

[Arthur]

Hello Taff,

Thankyou for your detailed information relating to the Suffolk Regt's Bn and Coy patches, and bringing the information to my attention.

Taff, would you have any objections if I was put your information along side my references for future reference, naturally given you as the source of the information?

From time to time new information comes to light and I try to keep abreast of it, so any new information that is found is always welcome.

For those that I have given information to in the past, or, that I am likely to do so in the future. When I give the detailed information from my references it is to try and help, and not to miss lead you.

Regards

Arthur