marina Posted 24 February , 2007 Share Posted 24 February , 2007 Thanks for that, Annie - good to put a face to a name. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 24 February , 2007 Share Posted 24 February , 2007 I doubt he would have felt young, with all that he would have heard and seen, by then. He would have been privelege, like it or not, to many things, in his duty as Father to the men. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 1 March , 2007 Share Posted 1 March , 2007 Where has Michel gone? Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 2 March , 2007 Share Posted 2 March , 2007 Kim, Do not warry, I am not far very friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 2 March , 2007 Share Posted 2 March , 2007 I've let Interpol know that you are safe and well, Michel - they#ve been scouring Europe for you and the plans... Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 3 March , 2007 Share Posted 3 March , 2007 Marina, I thank you for having reassured Interpol on my fate I was not disappeared but only preparing the continuation of our history friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 3 March , 2007 Share Posted 3 March , 2007 Marina, I was not disappeared but only preparing the continuation of our history friendly Michel That's a relief! We were all getting worried... We seek him here We seek him there We've sought him bloomin' everywhere. Is he is heaven? Or is he in hell? That lost elusive Pal Michel! (with apologies to Baroness Orczy) Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffsreg Posted 3 March , 2007 Share Posted 3 March , 2007 yes, I was becoming concerned too! what a relief!! Keep up the good work Michel. Best regards, Ivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 4 March , 2007 Share Posted 4 March , 2007 I was going through James' site and found this photo of Father Gleeson ! How weird it seems to put a face with all the information ......... and how YOUNG he looks !! http://royalmunsterfusiliers.net/q4gleson.htm Annie The photograph on Sullivan's site appears in Richard Holmes book 'Tommy' It is from the IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM's Photographic collection Reference Number Q11434; the caption is 'Burial in a trench, 1916'. I wonder if the owner of the website has the IWM's permission to use it? Professor Holmes has captioned the photograph in 'Tommy' as follows 'A Chaplain, probably Father Dominic Devas, wearing the Arm Badge of 16th (Irish) Division, conducting a burial in a trench.' Fr Gleeson's 1st Commission dated 18th November 1914 His second commission dated 15th May 1917 As Father Gleeson appears to have been at home in Ireland in 1916, it seems highly likely that it is not him. Also that 2/Munsters did not join 16th (Irish) Division, umtil later on. Fr P D Devas did serve with another of the Munster's battalions. I'm suprised no one else has picked this. And of course the chaplains cap badge used on the page was not introduced until 1930! A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 First of all I apologise to Sullivan for bringing the photo to everybody's attention ! Thank you for your information Audax ..... what else do you know about Father Gleeson ? ..... can you give us a true picture of him ? have you researched him at all ? it seems to be hard to find much background on him !! I'm sure everybody would be interested in anything else you can tell us about the Irish Chaplains !! Annie Edit ..... I did read this .... The Army Chaplains' Department (AChD) was formed by Royal Warrant of 23 September 1796. Previously chaplains had been part of individual regiments, but not on the central establishment. Only Anglican chaplains were recruited until 1827, when Presbyterians were recognised. Roman Catholic chaplains were recruited from 1836, Methodist chaplains from 1881, and Jewish chaplains from 1892. The Department received the "Royal" prefix in February 1919 for its services during World War I. I believe the cap badge was introduced at that time ! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...14/RAChD_QC.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 Marina, thank you for you little poem Ivan, thank you for your message for encouragement, I do my better very friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 Dear AUDAX, we had, a few time ago, the occasion to exchange, apart from the forum, some words about the“last absolution” and the location of the event. I am convinced that on your side, you know very interesting things on this subject, and it would have come very well that you share with us your knowledge in continuously of course to rectify the possible errors which we could involuntarily be made. friendly Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 5 March , 2007 Share Posted 5 March , 2007 The Cap badge illustrated on Sullivan's webpage was introduced in May 1930 by Army Order 91 'Royal prefix' Feb 1920 http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType= Father Gleeson's medal index card is Here Fr.Gleeson's service file, MAY be in the National Archives in London. It MAY be either of these: WO 339/89577 GLEESON F [1914-1922] or WO 339/115524 GLEESON F. These would go some way in establishing Fr Gleeson was in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 6 March , 2007 Share Posted 6 March , 2007 I don't really understand what you mean Audax ! or what you're trying to tell us .... ( or me ! ) but I'm really glad to see the medal card - thank you ! and I'd be more than happy to get it - if no-one else has it already ! Medal card of Gleeson, Rev Francis A Attached 3rd Royal Dublin Fusiliers Chaplain Date 1914-1920 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01bp/ And the same goes for his service record ! Fr.Gleeson's service file, MAY be in the National Archives in London. It MAY be either of these: WO 339/89577 GLEESON F [1914-1922] or WO 339/115524 GLEESON F. Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel knockaert Posted 6 March , 2007 Share Posted 6 March , 2007 Hi Annie, If we go back to the post number 70, we can see a photograph of Father GLEESON shared with us by jpc Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 7 March , 2007 Share Posted 7 March , 2007 Thank you Michel - for reminding me ! I remember now - looking at that picture and also Co Sgt Maj Leahy ! Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 9 March , 2007 Share Posted 9 March , 2007 Am I the only one having withdrawal symptoms ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 9 March , 2007 Share Posted 9 March , 2007 The photograph on Sullivan's site appears in Richard Holmes book 'Tommy' It is from the IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM's Photographic collection Reference Number Q11434; the caption is 'Burial in a trench, 1916'. I wonder if the owner of the website has the IWM's permission to use it? Professor Holmes has captioned the photograph in 'Tommy' as follows 'A Chaplain, probably Father Dominic Devas, wearing the Arm Badge of 16th (Irish) Division, conducting a burial in a trench.' A Audax, The photo on my web site was sent to me by another person who claimed it was Gleeson, the origins of the photo were not stated although I did ask. However I will look into this matter and determine the Provenance of the photo. When you compare the face to Matania's painting there is though a remarkable likeness. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 9 March , 2007 Share Posted 9 March , 2007 First of all I apologise to Sullivan for bringing the photo to everybody's attention ! Thank you for your information Audax ..... what else do you know about Father Gleeson ? ..... can you give us a true picture of him ? have you researched him at all ? it seems to be hard to find much background on him !! I'm sure everybody would be interested in anything else you can tell us about the Irish Chaplains !! Annie Edit ..... I did read this .... I believe the cap badge was introduced at that time ! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...14/RAChD_QC.gif Annie, There is no need to apologize on my behalf. As stated in my post to Audax I will try and trace the origins of the photo. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 10 March , 2007 Share Posted 10 March , 2007 Father Gleeson's medal index card is Here Fr.Gleeson's service file, MAY be in the National Archives in London. It MAY be either of these: WO 339/89577 GLEESON F [1914-1922] or WO 339/115524 GLEESON F. These would go some way in establishing Fr Gleeson was in France. The History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers by Capt. S. McCance states that the Rev Father Gleeson was with the 2nd battalion in France. There are several previous posts regarding Rev. F.C. Devas. This Chaplain was with the 1st battalion at Gallipoli. After after the Gallipoli evacuation the 1st battalion spent time at Suez. March 1916 - On the 14th the 1st Battalion embarked on the ship 'Alaunia', entered the Suez Canal at 6.30pm for Port Said where it left on the 16th for France. Marseilles was reached on the 22nd, Battalion entrained for the journey to Pont Remy, arriving at 4.30pm on the 23rd and settled into billets at Maison Roland. It is my understanding that towards the end of May 1916 the 1st battalion Munster Fusiliers was with the 16th Division at Mazingarbe. The 2nd battalion Munster Fusiliers was with the 1st Division at Les Brebis. My understanding also is that the 16th Division was reorganized in 1918. 1st battalion Munster's with the 47th Brigade and the 2nd battalion Munster's with the 48th Brigade. (ref. Orange Green & Khaki by Tom Johnstone, page 354). In light of the confusion over the photograph in question, I have temporarily removed the photo from my web site page until I check the provenance of the photo. I searched the IWM photographic collection for Q 11434, the answer to my request was 'No Records Found by Latest Query'. If any member can track this reference down it will be appreciated. I am happy to receive comment about material on my web site, I am not infallible. If there is no debate on subject matter of any desription, we will never get history corrected. The Great War Forum is a very good sounding board. I should point out that the shamrock (large in size) was used by the Royal Munster Fusiliers as far back as 1912 if not before, and may go back to the introduction of the 1881 Lord Cardwell Military reforms. The shamrock was used as a back drop to the badge of the Munster Fusiliers. I will post a photo to explain this later. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpool annie Posted 10 March , 2007 Share Posted 10 March , 2007 Hi Sullivan ! I checked the IWM also .... and got the same result as you ! ...... I even tried rearranging the numbers just in case and doing 5 numbers either side but with no luck !! Maybe the next time Audax comes on line - he/she can tell me what I'm doing wrong in my search !! Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullivan Posted 11 March , 2007 Share Posted 11 March , 2007 Hi Sullivan ! I checked the IWM also .... and got the same result as you ! ...... I even tried rearranging the numbers just in case and doing 5 numbers either side but with no luck !! Maybe the next time Audax comes on line - he/she can tell me what I'm doing wrong in my search !! Annie Hello Annie, I am not sure if Audax was inferring that Gleeson was never in France. But in light of all the research by Michel and his findings such as postcards on various posts from Michel, the Matania painting and other references I simply do not know why he makes the statement 'These would go some way in establishing Fr Gleeson was in France', this in reference to the medal index card. The photo in question has been around for some time. Unfortunately there is a lack of information about RMF Chaplains and one can only accept that information from various sources may be correct unless proven otherwise. Thanks for searching for the photo reference. I will post information as it comes to hand. I am in the process of checking my archives to see what I have collected over the past couple of years on Gleeson. Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted 11 March , 2007 Share Posted 11 March , 2007 James makes a good point about the likeness in the painting. It says a lot for Matania's skill that he has created such distinctive faces, when the heads of the figures are comparatively small in size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audax Posted 11 March , 2007 Share Posted 11 March , 2007 In an attempt to clarify : 1. The IWM on line catalogue is very much a work in progress - there will be many 1,000s of images still to be added. The Ref is Q11434. 2. In 'Tommy' Prof Holmes has captioned the picture 'Burial in a Trench, 1916. As far as I can establish Fr. Gleeson was not in France in 1916, as he had returned home to Ireland. 3. The same photograph apears in 'The Church of England in the First World War' by Alan Wilkinson. In this book it is captioned 'A chaplain conducting a burial service in the trenches 1918. Imperial War Museum Copyright. The photograph would seem to be taken on a date after 1916 when steel helmets were commonly in use. The chaplain in the photograph is wearing major's crowns so is a Chaplain to the Forces 3rd Class; can someone please check the Army List to see if Rev F. Gleeson is listed as 3rd Class. (Also Rev P D Devas) Rev P D Devas did serve as chaplain to the Munsters : he was interviewed by Miss Rose Coombes of the IWM in 1980. His memoirs were published in 1919. From cloister to camp / being reminiscences of a priest in France, 1915 to 1918 Also in the IWM Sound Recording Archives ID Number: 11195 [iWM interview] Production Date: 16/May/1980 Maker: Devas, Dominic Production Company: IWM British Roman Catholic chaplain to Warwickshire Regt, Munster Fusiliers and Gloucestershire Regt at Western Front 1914-1919; includes recording of speeches and marches at reunion 1980 : Military Operations, 1914-1919: Western Front Object Type: IWM interview Access Conditions: IWM copyright Number of Parts: 4 I would sugest that Sullivan contacts the IWM direct to establish the date of the photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 March , 2007 Share Posted 11 March , 2007 (edited) Rev. Francis Gleeson. Temporary Chaplain to the Forces, 4th Class - 18-11-1914 http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType= Reappointed Temporary Chaplain to the Forces, 4th Class - 15-5-1917 http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType= ------ Francis Devas has been discussed on the Forum before. Here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=68357&hl= He reached Temporary Chaplain to the Forces - 2nd Class. EDIT: Apologies - I posted about the wrong Devas brother. See post below Steve. Edited 11 March , 2007 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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