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AndrewFrench

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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MBrockway

Silver War Badge roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT, 3/RB.  A pre-war Regular, enlisted 27 Nov 1913.  Discharged due to Wounds on 19 Dec 1917.

781981394_ListM.833-top.JPG.c2425dc656a9fafed38238080eebfd4b.JPG

 

1634887956_ListM.833-bottom.JPG.19e12dfb0769c98aed6bc892733c2f0a.JPG

 

 

This man's MIC ...

30850_A000002-00343.jpg.e7af4368ad270a59b69bedcfbabdff11.jpg

 

Mark

 

 

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MBrockway
43 minutes ago, Aunty Tory said:

So, I have the birth certificate of my aunt which states William Abbott/ Hubbards regiment - attached.

fmm birth.pdf

 

Image (slightly cropped) of the above posted in-line to save Pals having to open the PDF ...

1764186261_NewPicture(2).jpg.7ed0fb369109f9fc58850bf48e4a16a4.jpg

 

 

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MBrockway

The Rifle Brigade British War Medal/Victory Medal roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT only mentions service in 3rd battalion, but it is listed twice, so it is likely he had two periods with 3/RB separated by time in the UK sick or wounded.

 

1914-15 Star roll confirms Overseas date as 22 Sep 1915, so he was sent out as a replenishment draft and did not go out with the battalion even though he appears to have been in the battalion since 27 Nov 1913.

 

None of his RB documentation gives a middle initial.  How sure are we that this is the same man as William George ABBOTT from Stepney/Holborn.  This man seems to be connected with Bristol rather than London.

 

Mark

 

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MBrockway

I have now replaced the original map in the post higher up with one showing 45 Leather Lane as well.  I have also added a 1906 photograph that shows the right hand third of 45 Leather Lane

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Susan Tall

Love the photo of Leather Lane.  However I still think Mr Hornblower was at No 42 - have a look at the address to the left of his signature. There is a definite '2'.

 

 

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Susan Tall
50 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

The Rifle Brigade British War Medal/Victory Medal roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT only mentions service in 3rd battalion, but it is listed twice, so it is likely he had two periods with 3/RB separated by time in the UK sick or wounded.

 

1914-15 Star roll confirms Overseas date as 22 Sep 1915, so he was sent out as a replenishment draft and did not go out with the battalion even though he appears to have been in the battalion since 27 Nov 1913.

 

None of his RB documentation gives a middle initial.  How sure are we that this is the same man as William George ABBOTT from Stepney/Holborn.  This man seems to be connected with Bristol rather than London.

 

Mark

 

You ask how sure we are that Rfn William Abbott is the same as William George Abbott from Stepney (really William George Hubbard)

 

I've just read the whole thread through again and Rfn William Abbott is definitely Aunty Tory's gt-grandfather from Bristol and the solicitors letter gives the link between Mrs Richley, (Matilda Alice) the daughter of Robert Samuel Hubbard, who said she had a brother William Henry Hubbard who had some trouble with the Army as a result of which he changed his name to Henry Abbott.  Further research has shown that this William Henry Hubbard was in fact William George Hubbard.  

 

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Madmeg
On 10/02/2019 at 01:48, Susan Tall said:

MadMeg,

When I search on Ancestry under British Army WW1 Service Records with a search of William George Hubbard b. 1893 Middlesex I come up with his papers which have 14 pages.  Are these the same ones you are looking at?

 

Page 1  His attestation into the Middlesex Regt, 1st May 1911, 18 years 4 months, occupation Grocer's assistant. 

Page 4  gives father's name as Arther Hubbard, 12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road.

Page 7  Attestation form to the Yorkshire Regt. 18 years 7 months, occupation Town Carman

Page 12 Mr Hornblower's statement. 

Page 13 Details of service with Yorkshire Regiment from 4/9/1911 to discharge 15/11/1912 as medically unfit for further service "Neurasthenia"

Page 14 Very damaged page at top - various questions. Q9 Concussion of brain "Serious", Court of Inquiry held at Blackdown 12/4/1912 Not on       duty.  Q10 Name and address of next of kin Father Robert Hubbard 40 Anthony St, Stepney.

 

I've just found on FindmyPast the same set of papers still very damaged but more readable. On Page 14 (as above) his address on discharge is given as 14 Brunswick Place, Stepney.

 

Also on FindmyPast there is a duplicate of his Attestation to the Yorkshire Regiment (in red print) which I'd found previously.

These two sets of papers are under British Army Service Records.

 

 

 

The only one I found that I could access were the RED printed duplicate papers for the attestation to Yorkshire- which only gives the information as I listed it- no info on the Middlesex Regt or details from pages 1,4,12,14 as you show them. Excepting that on one page his fathers name is given as Robert.

 

I think I got them off ancestry, I was working off both ancestry and FMP in a rush at the library- then there was a second set attributed to WG but they were only available through Fold and I couldn't see them- I'll try FMP for the non red set then. The library edition of Ancestry just will NOT let me specify a country set of records an wants to show me all the W G Hubbards from America and Australia in preference to the UK (there are lots of them!) .

 

14 Brunswick Place Stepney- doesn't show up anywhere- could it be one of those rows of houses along a main street- e.g. if you look at the Charles Booth map you will see along Commercial Road- northampton Place, Aveney? Place (hard to read) etc - these don;t show up in the search function as they are all just part of Commercial Roa (like the Leather Lane Buildings) . I've had a look along the Whitechapel Roa an Commercial Roa as they pass through Stepney but no Brunswick Place shows up. The only Brunswick place within cooee on Charles Booth is in Hackney- but the map is 1898 so Brunswick Place could be a later addition.

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Madmeg
On 10/02/2019 at 01:51, Neale1961 said:

Uncle and cousin Arthur have been mentioned several times previously- I have listed the addresses Uncle Arthur Frederick can be foun at up above (Emmott Street etc) from the 1890's on- there is no find of Beauchamp street for Arthur.

 

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Susan Tall
18 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

The only one I found that I could access were the RED printed duplicate papers for the attestation to Yorkshire- which only gives the information as I listed it- no info on the Middlesex Regt or details from pages 1,4,12,14 as you show them. Excepting that on one page his fathers name is given as Robert.

 

I think I got them off ancestry, I was working off both ancestry and FMP in a rush at the library- then there was a second set attributed to WG but they were only available through Fold and I couldn't see them- I'll try FMP for the non red set then. The library edition of Ancestry just will NOT let me specify a country set of records an wants to show me all the W G Hubbards from America and Australia in preference to the UK (there are lots of them!) .

 

14 Brunswick Place Stepney- doesn't show up anywhere- could it be one of those rows of houses along a main street- e.g. if you look at the Charles Booth map you will see along Commercial Road- northampton Place, Aveney? Place (hard to read) etc - these don;t show up in the search function as they are all just part of Commercial Roa (like the Leather Lane Buildings) . I've had a look along the Whitechapel Roa an Commercial Roa as they pass through Stepney but no Brunswick Place shows up. The only Brunswick place within cooee on Charles Booth is in Hackney- but the map is 1898 so Brunswick Place could be a later addition.

 

 

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Madmeg
1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

The Rifle Brigade British War Medal/Victory Medal roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT only mentions service in 3rd battalion, but it is listed twice, so it is likely he had two periods with 3/RB separated by time in the UK sick or wounded.

 

1914-15 Star roll confirms Overseas date as 22 Sep 1915, so he was sent out as a replenishment draft and did not go out with the battalion even though he appears to have been in the battalion since 27 Nov 1913.

 

None of his RB documentation gives a middle initial.  How sure are we that this is the same man as William George ABBOTT from Stepney/Holborn.  This man seems to be connected with Bristol rather than London.

 

Mark

 

 

There is still a big disconnect here isn;t there.

 

We (finally) have the records for William Abbott of Bristol confirming the RB connection, but there is still nothing to definitively show he was actually WG Hubbard (I'm not doubting that we have found the right William Abbott at last- he matches the man in Bristol).

 

There is still the problem with the Mdx, YRK papers for WG H with incorrect DoB, and the business with the father's name an addresses- neither Robert nor Arthur appear to have lived at the addresses shown. In fact they can be shown to have been living at different addresses entirely during the relevant periods.

 

There is still the issue of the DoB being six years out. Can we be back to the original possibilities that WG H acquired/swapped the ID disk of William Abbott during the War? I have previously given some possibilities around this.

 

OR that William George b 1887 died and another child was born and named William Henry- the difficulty with this is the age of WG in 1901 which is why finding them in 1891 would have been so very useful.BUT there is no death reg for WG prior to 1901 and no birth reg for a likely W (H) b 1893.

 

Sigh

Edited by Madmeg

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Susan Tall

Sorry MadMeg I reposted your post without a reply!  The duplicate service papers I found in RED were on FindmyPast.

 

Regarding Brunswick Place, Stepney, Tew found it by googling and came up with this:

 

"Brunswick Pl. Is about half mile N of Finsbury Sq. N side of Old St. E side of City Rd. By junction with East Rd. Running S-N; Cranwood St, Brunswick Pl, Corsham St, Styman & Chart St." 

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Madmeg
3 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

Sorry MadMeg I reposted your post without a reply!  The duplicate service papers I found in RED were on FindmyPast.

 

Regarding Brunswick Place, Stepney, Tew found it by googling and came up with this:

 

"Brunswick Pl. Is about half mile N of Finsbury Sq. N side of Old St. E side of City Rd. By junction with East Rd. Running S-N; Cranwood St, Brunswick Pl, Corsham St, Styman & Chart St." 

I found that one ages ago - its very much NOT in Stepney so I have ignored it. Of course it's not impossible that that was his adress but why would he put it as Stepney not as Finsbury?

 

To repeat I can;t find any Brunswick Place in any RELEVANT area of London. 

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MBrockway

14 Brunswick Place, Stepney is here ...

 

1541173960_STEPNEYBrunswickPlace(1896)B2.jpg.c4767ff9b6ef5566558950e365e19316.jpg

 

This is 1km east of Anthony Street in the Ratcliff/Limehouse area of Stepney MB.

 

Here's a zoom out with 40 Anthony Street and Brunswick Place marked by ringed dots to better locate it ...

1222664257_STEPNEYBrunswickPlace(1896)C.jpg.5655073333d116536497dd25f1fd4e17.jpg

 

It appears to have had 15 separate numbered dwellings.

 

It was renamed to Prittlewell Place in 1917.

 

It has long been swept away by later redevelopment.

 

Mark

 

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Madmeg

Now THAT looks more likely- nice find

 

While you are there... :-)

 

Electoral rolls

Arthur Frederick HubbErd, 

 

Stepney

1902-1905, 98 Harford St, (census shows this as Mile End Old Town)

Limehouse

1912, 5 Lufton Place (Halley Street)


 

 

Another Arthur Frederick (HubbArd) but as he is also listed in 1905 probably not our bloke?- that said there appear to be no other Arthur Freds out there- NB I can;t find this one in 1901 census and he is the only other Arthur Frederick on the electoral roll.

 

Stepney

Arthur Frederick Hubbard

1897 58 Emmott Street

1905 81 Emmott Street

(There may be other years I haven;t checked them all)

 

 

And some other (but not all ) Arthur's in Poplar an Stepney area- just put in to save anyone else checking them out- there are lots of Arthur's I have made NO attempt to check out the ones I consider to be obviously irrelevant

Hackney - MEOT

1899, 17 Cologne St

 

Poplar

28 Glengall Street 3 rooms upstairs unfurnished , owned by John Young same address 1897-8 (boliermaker mar to Louise 1901 census)

37 Galbraith St dwelling house -1905 -7

 

There was a William living 102 Commercial St Spitalfeils - thougth he could be Roberts brother but he was b 1848 (bit early?- haven;t chased further- he is on 1901 census with wfe Harriet an number of children)

The interweb is having a go slow on me there is an 1897 Poplar record it won;t let me see- but I suspect it is Galbraith Road Arthur ad therefore not our problem

 

 

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Susan Tall

When Arthur Frederick Hubbard married Matilda Jane Taylor on 25th December 1891 they both gave their addresses as 49 Emmott Street.

They are on the 1901 census at 98 Harford Lane, and 1911 census at 5 Lufton Place, Halley Street, Stepney.

 

 

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MBrockway
12 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Stepney

1902-1905, 98 Harford St, (census shows this as Mile End Old Town)

1897 58 Emmott Street

1905 81 Emmott Street

 

 

On 09/02/2019 at 12:06, MBrockway said:

Earlier I looked up Harford Street and Emmott Street, both approx a mile to the NE in the Mile End/Stepney Green area just west of the Regent's Canal.  If these two addresses are now out of play, then I don't need to post my results for them.  Let me know (briefly).

 

Struggled to build a clear base map for this one, but I hope this is good enough to identify the addresses.  Mile End Road crosses diagonally NE-wards across the top of the map.  The Regent's Canal parallels the right margin.  The canal bridge top right is Gunmakers Arms Bridge and canal lock just east of the gas works is Johnson's Lock.

 

I'm confident about 98 Harford St, 49 and 81 Emmott St, but I could not narrow down 58 Emmott St more than the block of houses on the NW edge of the corner.

 

The postcode of the modern replacement for the school in Emmott St is E1 4PZ.  That should make it easy to locate this area.

 

[Edit: I realised Lufton Place, Halley Street, is just visible at the south edge of this map, so I have annotated it.  The detail is much clearer in the next post though]

[Edit 2: I have added Cologne St and, as a landmark, the Prince of Prussia/King Albert pub (126 Harford St)]

 

1242396202_STEPNEY-HarfordEmmottstreets13(1896).jpg.fdfed92a55a843ebd8ef25c15161b0ca.jpg

 

 

Ooops!  That should be Emmott, not Emmot - apologies

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway
1 hour ago, Susan Tall said:

When Arthur Frederick Hubbard married Matilda Jane Taylor on 25th December 1891 they both gave their addresses as 49 Emmott Street.

They are on the 1901 census at 98 Harford Lane, and 1911 census at 5 Lufton Place, Halley Street, Stepney.

 

 

Lufton Place, Halley Street is at the bottom of the map above, but it merited a close up as it's so wee!

 

The south end of Harford Street, the Gas Works and the Regent's Canal should all help you fix this location relative to the Harford Street and Emmott Street addresses which are ~300 yds to the north.

 

2057426626_STEPNEY-HalleySt02(1896).jpg.1a7e5cd7094658468efb638cfd38a30e.jpg
 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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Madmeg
5 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

Lufton Place, Halley Street is at the bottom of the map above, but it merited a close up as it's so wee!

 

The south end of Harford Street, the Gas Works and the Regent's Canal should all help you fix this location relative to the Harford Street and Emmott Street addresses which are ~300 yds to the north.

 

2057426626_STEPNEY-HalleySt02(1896).jpg.1a7e5cd7094658468efb638cfd38a30e.jpg
 

Mark

 

The marriage address is interesting- it's a bit odd that he is shown on the electoral roll in two separate addresses for 1905.

 

I checked it again just to be sure  but it definitely has both arthur Frederick HubbErd AND Arthur HubbArd listed for 1905

 

1897 Arthur Frederick HubbErd -58 Emmott St

1899 Arthur Hubbard -17 Cologne St

1902,1903, 1904, 1905 Arthur Frederick HubbErd- 98 Harford St

1905, 1906, 1907 - Arthur HubbArd  81 Emmott

1912 Arthur Frederick Lufton Place

 

go figure!

I would say that Arthur Fred didn;t make the electoral rolls for 1898, 1900, 1901, 1906 -1911 and the Arthur shown at Emmott is an annoying coincidence? 

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Madmeg

could this be our man in 1911?

 

William Hubbard

Employee

England and Wales Census, 1911

birth:
1892
Stepney London, London
residence:
1911
St Giles In The Fields And St George Bloomsbury, W C, London, England
   
 

William Hubbard

England and Wales Census, 1911
Name William Hubbard
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
Event Place St Giles In The Fields And St George Bloomsbury, W C, London, England
County London
Parish St Giles In The Fields And St George Bloomsbury
Sub-District St Giles And Bloomsbury
Sub-District Number 1
District Number 12
Enumeration District 9
Registration District St Giles
Gender Male
Age 19
Marital Status SINGLE
Marital Status SINGLE
Occupation KITCHEN PORTER ALL AT DINING ROOMS
Number in Family 4
Birth Year (Estimated) 1892
Birthplace Stepney London, London
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Schedule Type 596
Page Number 1
Registration Number RG14
Piece/Folio 1233
Affiliate Record Identifier GBC/1911/RG14/01178/1233/4
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
William J Crathern Servant M 27 Hoxton London, London
James Gunning Servant M 31 St Pancras London, London
Albert Farrell Servant M 22 N Islington London, London
William Hubbard Servant M 19 Stepney London, London
Citing this Record

"England and Wales Census, 1911," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGX-CJT : 20 December 2018), William Hubbard in household of William J Crathern, St Giles In The Fields And St George Bloomsbury, W C, London, England; from "1911 England and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 14, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

The image is viewable at search.findmypast.co.uk. By clicking here you will be leaving FamilySearch.org. (fees and other terms may apply)
England and Wales Census, 1911

 

But it does require him to be using the wrong birth date. :-(

 

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MBrockway
4 hours ago, Madmeg said:

1897 Arthur Frederick HubbErd -58 Emmott St

1899 Arthur Hubbard -17 Cologne St

1902,1903, 1904, 1905 Arthur Frederick HubbErd- 98 Harford St

1905, 1906, 1907 - Arthur HubbArd  81 Emmott

1912 Arthur Frederick Lufton Place

 

 

If you went from 98 Harford Street south along Harford Street for 60yds, Cologne Street is the first side street on the right.

 

A pub called the Prince of Prussia (renamed as King Albert 1899-1901) was on the S corner of the Harford St/Cologne St junction at 126 Harford Street.  It closed c.1944.

 

Modern Bale Road follows the same line, except where Cologne Street ended and the road turned south as Bohn Street, Bale Road continues straight through to Duckett Street.

 

If I get a chance, I'll add Cologne Street to the map above. [Edit: Done]

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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Susan Tall

Arthur F Hubbard and his bride Matilda Taylor both gave their addresses as 49 Emmott Street when they married in December 1891. If you look at the 1891 census you see that Arthur is a boarder with the Taylor family at 49 Emmott Street.   By 1897 they have moved to 58 Emmott St.

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TEW

A few things gleaned from his WWI records;

His pension card gives disability as Functional Alphonia, Wiki says this is the inability to produce voiced sound. Typical type of condition Hurst was treating at Seale Hayne which was also known as a Shell-Shock hospital. Not surprising really if he was diagnosed Neurasthenic in 1912. He may not have been diagnosed Shell-Shock during WWI but it would have been a generic term to use for Functional Alphonia.

 

His card has correspondance dates up to the entry O/T 17/11/31, he died in Aug 31 so I think he was claiming a pension up to his death BUT as a single person or at least they had notification of his death. He succesfully appealed against a decision in 1922 and didn't mention his marriage or children.

 

He also pops up on FMP with a MH106 record for 4th Stationary Hospital. Discharged to duty 14/12/1915, condition = constipation. Age given as 22 (1893) with 2½ years of service and 3 months field service.

 

He also shows up on WO Official Casualty List in The TImes 3/10/1916 which may give rise to the home break he had at some point.

TEW

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ss002d6252
33 minutes ago, TEW said:

A few things gleaned from his WWI records;

His pension card gives disability as Functional Alphonia, Wiki says this is the inability to produce voiced sound. Typical type of condition Hurst was treating at Seale Hayne which was also known as a Shell-Shock hospital. Not surprising really if he was diagnosed Neurasthenic in 1912. He may not have been diagnosed Shell-Shock during WWI but it would have been a generic term to use for Functional Alphonia. 

 

His card has correspondance dates up to the entry O/T 17/11/31, he died in Aug 31 so I think he was claiming a pension up to his death BUT as a single person or at least they had notification of his death. He succesfully appealed against a decision in 1922 and didn't mention his marriage or children.

 

He also pops up on FMP with a MH106 record for 4th Stationary Hospital. Discharged to duty 14/12/1915, condition = constipation. Age given as 22 (1893) with 2½ years of service and 3 months field service.

 

He also shows up on WO Official Casualty List in The TImes 3/10/1916 which may give rise to the home break he had at some point.

TEW

Can you link to the pension card, please.


Craig

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TEW

Craig it's HERE.

 

Thought I'd do a new post for this rather than adding to previous.

 

Diary shows a draft of 144 arriving 26/9/1915 and 12 more on 29th.

 

Working backwards from 3/10/1916 for the WO Official Casualty List in The TImes entry shows the 3/RB had 31 Killed, 6 Missing and 167 Wounded in the re-taking of Delville Wood. If that isn't his Casualty List entry then the one 18th Aug when they attacked Guillemont must be, 136 wounded that day.

 

Battle of the Somme man!!

TEW

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ss002d6252
15 minutes ago, TEW said:

Craig it's HERE.

 

Thought I'd do a new post for this rather than adding to previous.

 

Diary shows a draft of 144 arriving 26/9/1915 and 12 more on 29th.

 

Working backwards from 3/10/1916 for the WO Official Casualty List in The TImes entry shows the 3/RB had 31 Killed, 6 Missing and 167 Wounded in the re-taking of Delville Wood. If that isn't his Casualty List entry then the one 18th Aug when they attacked Guillemont must be, 136 wounded that day.

  

Battle of the Somme man!! 

TEW

Thanks

 

What doesn't help is that the pension cards weren't brought in to use until 1920ish and then they seem to have been phased out again, as far as showing the award details, within a few years. They were obviously however retained as a working card index for a far longer time period. An award seems to have been in place to at least 1926 and probably on to his death.

 

There's no notation on his card to indicate a pension prior to 1920 but it would seem likely that he was receiving one. A pension number issued for the time he was discharged would have been somewhere around 185XXX/H.

 

Craig

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