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AndrewFrench

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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Susan Tall

Aunty Tory,

I've got a feeling on his attestation form when he joined up to the Yorkshire Regiment there was something saying he had to agree to go to any regiment the Army chose.  Will go back and have a look.

Sue

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Susan Tall

Aunty Tory

On his attestation papers it says

Q15 For what Corps are you willing to be enlisted or are you willing to be enlisted for General Service?

He answered Yorkshire Regiment

 

Q16 Do you understand that although every endeavour will be made to post you to the regiment which you have selected you will be liable, if necessity arises to serve with any regiment of the Corps for which you enlist.   (The space next to this has been left blank)

He obviously chose the Yorkshire Regiment - he had been with the Middlesex Regiment on Special Reserve since May 1911 and this was now September.  Maybe the Yorkshire Regiment were recruiting in that area of London for the regular army.

 

Have had a quick look for William Hubbard son of uncle Arthur but haven't got beyond the 1911 census yet.

 

Sue

 

 

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Susan Tall

Sorry, last sentence wrong, should have said William Hubbard son of uncle William George!!!   Need my lunch, must leave it for now

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Aunty Tory
18 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

Sorry, last sentence wrong, should have said William Hubbard son of uncle William George!!!   Need my lunch, must leave it for now

Can get a bit addictive, can't it?

22 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

Aunty Tory

On his attestation papers it says

Q15 For what Corps are you willing to be enlisted or are you willing to be enlisted for General Service?

He answered Yorkshire Regiment

 

Q16 Do you understand that although every endeavour will be made to post you to the regiment which you have selected you will be liable, if necessity arises to serve with any regiment of the Corps for which you enlist.   (The space next to this has been left blank)

He obviously chose the Yorkshire Regiment - he had been with the Middlesex Regiment on Special Reserve since May 1911 and this was now September.  Maybe the Yorkshire Regiment were recruiting in that area of London for the regular army.

 

Have had a quick look for William Hubbard son of uncle Arthur but haven't got beyond the 1911 census yet.

 

Sue

 

 

That explains it - I didn't realise that was possible.  I wonder why he specifically asked to join the Yorkshire regiment?

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Susan Tall

Sounds like the Yorkshire Regiment were going round recruiting in the area where he was and he decided to join them.

I'm sure there are people on  here more familiar with recruiting than I am - perhaps someone can comment.

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Madmeg

How about uncle? Arthur Frederick Hubbard b 1865 stepney- son of John an Anna- found him in 1881 with parents. 1901 married an living in Stepney- occupation cattle drover.

 

oops- see you've a;ready found him, amd wife Mathilda- I'm fining my GWF is waiting until after I chase stuff up and post it to update itself with other people's replies !

I found William George the elder previously- he was also a cattle drover.

 

1871 William G 8 years old with parents in stepney

1881 William G 18 years old , Arthur Frdk 16 years old- both still with parents , King John St MEOT

 

Edited by Madmeg

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TEW

His record on FMP is from the WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913 set.

 

Ancestry version lacks his number but is in WO363 British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920. He gives his Father's (Arthur) Address as 12 Beauchamp St, Grey's Inn, Rd. This is now near Holborn Mosque. As this is 1911 it should be easy to verify the address via the census, but;

 

No. 11 Beauchamp St was a Boys' Home although the address has been changed on the form from 12 to 11. Can't find a 12 Beauchamp St for 1911 census.

 

There are Hubbards in the same area. Reg District Holborn, Reg Number 14 shows 25 Hubbards with some in same parish (St Andrew Holborn above the Bars and St George the Martyr).

 

Ancestry record might say says Concussion of Brain, serious, not 100% convinced about brain, looks more like braie to me but that makes no sense. Doubt if there's any Court of Inquiry records anywhere.

 

Quite why his 1911-1912 records are mixed with British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 is not clear but it's not uncommon to see pre and post war records mixed in for no reason. No reason to assume from this that he had WWI service.

 

I'm not convinced that neurasthenia led to amnesia which led him to forget his family. Although serious concussion to brain does sound plausible for amnesia and perhaps neurasthenia was a bad diagnosis by the army doctor.

 

1918 definition of Neurasthenia;

Neurasthenia is a functional disorder, resulting from exhaustion of the nervous system, and probably of certain endocrine glands, especially the suprarenal, which manifests itself by abnormal mental and physical fatigability and irritability of the nervous system.

 

Which doesn't really help much!

 

I still think with a 1912 discharge due to Neurasthenia he's unlikley to be accepted again during the war, unless he changed his name, perhaps to something other than Hubbard or Abbott. The Rifle Brigade connection has not come out out yet. There seems to be no Courts Martial records for him as Abbott of Hubbard (possibly he was never caught) but no evidence for desertion via The Police Gazette either so I'd veer away from the desertion theory.
 

Quote

so the only reasons a soldier would have to be back would be an injury, home leave or desertion?  Would that be right?

 


IF he was (or had been) a WWI soldier he may have been discharged for a wide range of reasons. Perhaps joining under a false name was the 'trouble with army' thing rather than desertion.

 

But there's still the 'unpleasant thing' that Bessie was told after his death that was never spoken about again which seems to me to have nothing to do with Army problems.

TEW

 

 

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Susan Tall

Hi Tew,

 

Thanks for you insights.  Interesting about the address of his so-called father Arthur Hubbard, 12 Beauchamp St.

His uncle Arthur in 1911 is living at 5 Lufton Place, Stepney, with wife Matilda and sons Arthur and Edward, so unless they moved after the census it probably doesn't refer to him.

 

Did he invent his father's name?  It's strange that later on in the papers it says his father is Robert Samuel Hubbard.

 

It really is a mystery. 

 

Sue

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Madmeg
6 hours ago, Susan Tall said:

Hi Tew,

 

Thanks for you insights.  Interesting about the address of his so-called father Arthur Hubbard, 12 Beauchamp St.

His uncle Arthur in 1911 is living at 5 Lufton Place, Stepney, with wife Matilda and sons Arthur and Edward, so unless they moved after the census it probably doesn't refer to him.

 

Did he invent his father's name?  It's strange that later on in the papers it says his father is Robert Samuel Hubbard.

 

It really is a mystery. 

 

Sue

There is also a mismatch with him giving PoB as Anthony St on his attestation when his baptism record gives Haydon Street. I can't find any existence for his "referee" Mr Hornblower either

Edited by Madmeg

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TEW

There seems to be an attempt at 'covering up' something in 1911 and before he had the serious concussion incident. The concussion thing could no doubt assist in further covering up. Certainly intriguing!

TEW

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Susan Tall

I've been looking for William George Hubbard in the 1911 census but have failed to find him, then I just realised he attested for the Middlesex Regt on the 1st May 1911 and was said to be on Recruit Training until 31st August 1911.  The 1911 Census was taken in June that year, so could he have been away training and recorded in some military place.

 

Madmeg - he didn't give his place of birth as 40 Anthony Street, that was the address given for his father Robert Samuel Hubbard on that attestation papers, but remember his father died in 1901 so wasn't a current address in 1911 when he enlisted.  The last address for Robert Samuel is on the 1901 census with all the family and they are living at 32 Sheridan St, Stepney.

 

I wonder just what happened to William George after his parents died - father died 1901 and mother 1902.   

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Madmeg
5 hours ago, Susan Tall said:

I've been looking for William George Hubbard in the 1911 census but have failed to find him, then I just realised he attested for the Middlesex Regt on the 1st May 1911 and was said to be on Recruit Training until 31st August 1911.  The 1911 Census was taken in June that year, so could he have been away training and recorded in some military place.

 

Madmeg - he didn't give his place of birth as 40 Anthony Street, that was the address given for his father Robert Samuel Hubbard on that attestation papers, but remember his father died in 1901 so wasn't a current address in 1911 when he enlisted.  The last address for Robert Samuel is on the 1901 census with all the family and they are living at 32 Sheridan St, Stepney.

 

I wonder just what happened to William George after his parents died - father died 1901 and mother 1902.   

Wouls still expect to find him on the census- there is that one at Caterham Camp. 

Why on earth would he give an address for a deceased father??? seems very odd  - (buried in the garden :-) )- I'm assuming they lived there at some stage when he was young and he thought that was where he was born, otherwise why would he put that in there? Unless it is an address for a relative he was living with? Seems very strange. 

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Neale1961

1911 census for William Hubbard, age 18, has him an inmate at the Metropolitan Asylum in Caterham Surrey.

Listed as “imbecile”.

From age 5 to 13 William was at the Tower Hamlet Workhouse, Bethnal Green. He was discharged in Feb 1905 and transferred to Caterham.

I suspect the “brain injury” occurred before he attested for military service.

I also think that all the confusion with his name, dob, addresses, names of relatives on all the documents was a result of his mental health.

Edited by Neale1961

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Madmeg
39 minutes ago, Neale1961 said:

1911 census for William Hubbard, age 18, has him an inmate at the Metropolitan Asylum in Caterham Surrey.

Listed as “imbecile”.

From age 5 to 13 William was at the Tower Hamlet Workhouse, Bethnal Green. He was discharged in Feb 1905 and transferred to Caterham.

I suspect the “brain injury” occurred before he attested for military service.

I also think that all the confusion with his name, dob, addresses, names of relatives on all the documents was a result of his mental health.

That doesnt quite work with the find of him with his family in 1901 though :-( . How did you fin the records for him in Tower Hamlets workhouse?

 

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Neale1961

I found it all on Ancestry. The 1911 census led me to the Caterham Asylum admission, and that took me back to Tower Hamlet Workhouse records.

I believe it was possible to be an inmate at a Workhouse and still have contact with one’s family. 

Edited by Neale1961

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TEW

1911 census was on 2nd April not in June. He joined Middx Regt. in May 1911. The man found by neale1961 sounds likely and explains a lot. The brain injury occurred while he was serving with Yorks regt. hence the court of inquiry in 1912? That's not going to help someone with his previous condition.

TEW

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Madmeg

But I'm talking about the 1901 census where he is clearly shown living with his family at the age of 13 when the workhouse records have him as an inmate- someone with access to the 1911 images could check if the WG with father Robert an mother Elizabeth is noted as an "imbecile" on that form? An imbecile was someone with a very low IQ- not a mild mental condition. That 1901 census to me doesn;t square with the information that THIS WG seems to have been institutionalised for most of his childhood.

 

I found this one when searching for WG in the military 1911- unfortunately familysearch classifies it as a military record and I forgot that it shows him as being in an asylum when I mentioned it. This one doesn;t seem to be to be a likely recruit for the army, or the later marriage. There are several William G's from that area (William George b 1888 whitechapel for a start, plus the ones in surrounding districts)

 

I have found his father Robert on various electoral rolls which may help find the family in 1891-

1890- 1 Jane Court , Jane Street

1893- 79 Lower Chapman Street Robert was here until 1902 (electoral rolls were always a year out of date)

1902- 32 Sherian Street (as per the 1901 census )

 

I have found Jane Court in the FMP address search for 1891 but can;t get any further with it  (ie occupants) with no subscription until I go to the library.

 

I have also found uncle Arthur Frederick- 1890's at Emmott Street, 1902 Harford St (as per 1901 census) - both Stepney, and 1912 Lufton Place Halley Street Limehouse- not the address given on the attestation forms.

 

 

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TEW

Someone else said the 1911 census was in June therefore he was in Middx regt. for the census. As he joined up in May he won't be 'military' on the census. He could easily have been in and out of the asylum and at home for the 1901. Not sure why he's 13 in 1901 and 18 in 1911. 

TEW

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Madmeg

The difficulty I'm having in reconciling William Hubbard "imbecile" as found above with William George- This from the merriam Webster Dictionary- "


 

Idiot, imbecile, and moron were, not so long ago, used in a psychological classification system, and each one was assigned to a fairly specific range of abilities.

Idiots.—Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years. 
Imbeciles.—Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years. 
Morons.—Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
— Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children, 1912"

 

 

William George was born 1887 not 1893- we don;t know why he lied on his military record but it DOES seem reasonable to assume that William in the workhouse and asylum was actually born c1893- he was admitted aged five not aged 11.

William George is with his parents in 1901 aged 13- correct for the baptism which has been found.

William is admitted to the asylum c1898 and stays there until c 1901 when he is transferred to Caterham asylum according to the post above- not discharged to his family.

William George (with the right father, strange age and addresses which are all in the right area) joins up in  May  1911

William is registered as an 'imbecile" in the Caterham Asylum ( http://www.workhouses.org.uk/MAB-Caterham/) in April 1911- he would have had to have made a stunning improvement in condition to have been a) discharged b) accepted into the army given that he had been a virtually lifelong inhabitant of institutions with no sign that he was ever discharged for short periods. Imbecile is not equivalent to neurasthenia.

William George (as Harry Abbott) marries in 1917

A William Hubbard b 1892 died in Godstone (right reg district for the Asylum) in 1915 .Between 1840 and 1920 only two Hubbard children were born in Godstone (both died as infants) an none of the Hubbards who died in Godstone appear to have been born there- the asylum would appear to be a source for these deaths.

 

I really don;t think this is the same person- I made a mistake when I originally posted the reference to Caterham because I thought it was a military record rather than that  of a permament patient.

 

From the above website- by 1900 24,000 patients had passed through Caterham , Leaversden and Darenth- 6,000 had been discharged. Only 1400 of these were registered as having been "recovered" , 1500 were "relieved". From the death record above I don;t think that William Hubbard (rather than William George Hubbard) was one of those.

 

EDIT 1901 there is a William Hubbard in Darenth in kent - patient b 1892- this coul well be the William of Caterham above as Darenth was a home for children and was used as overspill for adults from Caterham for a while- I only have the index entry and there is no place of birth given.

 

I am now thinking along the lines that William George was far more keen on being in the army than the army was to have him and that he may have enlisted several times using slightly ifferent details to try to get in. 

Edited by Madmeg

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MBrockway
2 hours ago, Madmeg said:

The difficulty I'm having in reconciling William Hubbard "imbecile" as found above with William George- This from the merriam Webster Dictionary- "


 

Idiot, imbecile, and moron were, not so long ago, used in a psychological classification system, and each one was assigned to a fairly specific range of abilities.

Idiots.—Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years. 
Imbeciles.—Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years. 
Morons.—Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children, 1912"

 

 

 

Both these sources are from the United States.  Classification systems and even definition of terms are likely to be different in the United Kingdom.

Edited by MBrockway

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Madmeg
3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

Both these sources are from the United States.  Classification systems and even definition of terms are likely to be different in the United Kingdom.

There's only one source there but if you prefer some British ones...

 

https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/11807-Idiot-or-Imbecile-What-was-the-difference

"As a coincidence, I have just received the April edition of the Family Tree magazine which has part 2 of an article about hospitals for the mentally ill. It gives the following definitions in use until the beginning of the 20thC:
imbecile - 'mental age of an infant'
idiot - 'natural fool from birth'
lunatic - 'sometimes of good and sound memory and understanding, and sometimes not'

It goes on to say that the Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 introduced revised definitions:
idiot - 'unable to guard themselves against physical danger'
imbecile - 'incapable of managing themselves or their affairs'
feeble minded - 'needing care or control for the protection of themselves or others'
moral defective - those possessed of 'vicious or criminal propensities' 

It them goes on to say that giving birth out of wedlock was considered a form of moral insanity and hence unmarried mothers were classed as 'moral defectives'.
lunatic - retained its old definitions until 1930, when it was redefined to mean 'a person of unsound mind'

It mentions several interesting looking links.

Elaine
(off to have a look round it!)"

 

And for legal definitions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Deficiency_Act_1913

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiots_Act_1886

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=b5ADAAAAQAAJ&dq=lunatic+and+idiot&pg=PA1&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Not Great War sorry- but I think a fairly good rebuttal of why someone described by asylum staff as an "imbecile" is really extremely unlikely to  be the man we are all looking for. Bear in mind that at this time Imbecile was a MEDICAL term not just as general word bandied about as a casual insult. William has the mental capacity of a child and is considered incapable of looking after himself. William George obviously was neither even though he did have issues.

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MBrockway
8 hours ago, Madmeg said:

There's only one source there but if you prefer some British ones...

 

Two sources - Miriam-Webster's dictionary and Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children, 1912?.  Both USA.

 

Your British sources are much more appropriate and make your case well.  Thanks for taking the extra time to unearth them  :thumbsup:

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Madmeg
15 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Two sources - Miriam-Webster's dictionary and Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children, 1912?.  Both USA.

 

Your British sources are much more appropriate and make your case well.  Thanks for taking the extra time to unearth them  :thumbsup:

no one source- all taken fro m Merriam Webster- they have quoted the edmund huey - I didn't chase him up ;-)

But basically they are working off the same page.

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TEW

I've been having a look at the various address & contacts he gives in the WO97 & WO363 sets.

 

Hornblower the grocer. Not 100% sure if it's 42 or 45 Leather Lane which would make sense for a grocer's market plus it's a stone's throw from 12 Beauchamp Street. However, I can't find a grocer called Hornblower in that area for 1901 or 1911. 1901 Census has a Thomas Charles Powell, grocer at 45 Leather Lane. The address itself is a bit odd as there is a 45 Leather Lane and a 45 Leather Lane Buildings with different occupiers. Ditto for 42.

1911 census has Frederick Herbert etc & Sheen family at 42 Leather Lane.

There is a Richard Hornblower a grocer in Shropshire 1901.

There is also a Charles Hornblower, Shoeblack born circa 1893 Limehouse. He was at the Shoeblack Society, Saffron Hill. Not far from Leather Lane & Beauchamp St.

Could this be a false reference? It says WGH has been employed as Grocer's Asst for 4-5 years but WGH gives his occupation as Town Carman.

 

12 Beauchamp St. Address given for father Arthur Hubbard, date either 1/5/1911 or Sept 1911. No such address on 1901 or 1911 census. It did exist earlier as there are 1895 adverts for workshops at '12 Beachamp Street, Leather Lane' (interesting!)

 

40 Anthony St. Can't see any family connections 1901 or 1911.

 

14 Brunswick Place. Occupied I think by the Little family etc 1911. There is a 14 Brunswick Pl. Stepney and another in Shoreditch.

TEW

 

 

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Susan Tall

I agree that all these addresses are very strange, it looks likes he's made them up. 

I've also searched for a grocer called Hornblower and failed to find him.

However William did give his occupation as grocer's assistant on one form - first page on his service record on Ancestry - it's torn at the top and bottom.  Think it is dated 1st May 1911.

 

His father's address is strange as Robert Samuel Hubbard died in December 1901, buried 17th December 1901, aged 46.   Tower Hamlets Cemetery register gives his address as 32 Sheridan St, Stepney, which is where the family were living (including William George) in 1911. 

 

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