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AndrewFrench

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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MBrockway
3 hours ago, TEW said:

A few things gleaned from his WWI records;

His pension card gives disability as Functional Alphonia, Wiki says this is the inability to produce voiced sound. Typical type of condition Hurst was treating at Seale Hayne which was also known as a Shell-Shock hospital. Not surprising really if he was diagnosed Neurasthenic in 1912. He may not have been diagnosed Shell-Shock during WWI but it would have been a generic term to use for Functional Alphonia.

 

His card has correspondance dates up to the entry O/T 17/11/31, he died in Aug 31 so I think he was claiming a pension up to his death BUT as a single person or at least they had notification of his death. He succesfully appealed against a decision in 1922 and didn't mention his marriage or children.

 

He also pops up on FMP with a MH106 record for 4th Stationary Hospital. Discharged to duty 14/12/1915, condition = constipation. Age given as 22 (1893) with 2½ years of service and 3 months field service.

 

He also shows up on WO Official Casualty List in The TImes 3/10/1916 which may give rise to the home break he had at some point.

TEW

 

TEW - do these all link up to 3/RB?  Or possibly 5/ or 6/RB?  Men in UK hospitals or recuperating were often put on the strength of one of the Reserve battalions.

 

As you say - looks a good match for the Blighty spell suggested by the medal roll.

 

Does the MH106 record give his Company in 3/RB?  Some do and it will be of interest to Andy.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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TEW

Mark

I'd have to check the pension card again to be 100% sure it says 3/RB.

The MH106 only gives 3/RB.

The Casualty List only gives RB.

I could PM that list if you want to check names against medal rolls.

I'd suspect the Alphonia thing would be a separate issue to the Autumn 1916 injury. Unlikely I think to be struck dumb but later to return to unit and then to be discharged Dec 17 with Alphonia.

TEW

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ss002d6252

The pension ledger says RB.

image.png.4abb40135496e90947bd1c8d107ce04d.png

 

Craig

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johnboy

It show 3 RB under name Abbott

Edited by johnboy

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Functional Aphonia...not ALphonia !

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TEW

Dai,

At first glance I thought the card said Aphonia and have plenty of examples of Functional Aphonia. I double checked the card and saw 'Alphonia' written. I googled that and the result I quoted is indeed (after a second look) for Aphonia.

Thanks for clearing that up.

TEW

 

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MBrockway
12 hours ago, TEW said:

Mark

The Casualty List only gives RB.

I could PM that list if you want to check names against medal rolls.

TEW

 

Yes please TEW - the Oct 1916 casualty list may help Andy confirm an 3/RB action where the wounding occurred.  Unfortunately the RB and KRRC Regular battalions entered much sparser casualty info into their war diaries than the Service battalions, so this may not be possible.

 

Mark

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Madmeg
20 hours ago, TEW said:

Craig it's HERE.

 

Thought I'd do a new post for this rather than adding to previous.

 

Diary shows a draft of 144 arriving 26/9/1915 and 12 more on 29th.

 

Working backwards from 3/10/1916 for the WO Official Casualty List in The TImes entry shows the 3/RB had 31 Killed, 6 Missing and 167 Wounded in the re-taking of Delville Wood. If that isn't his Casualty List entry then the one 18th Aug when they attacked Guillemont must be, 136 wounded that day.

 

Battle of the Somme man!!

TEW

Can we just clarify something?

 

Is this pension card in the name of William Abbott or William George Hubbard?

 

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Susan Tall

William Abbott - see post 203 for top of the card.

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Madmeg
2 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

William Abbott - see post 203 for top of the card.

Thanks- really irritating- I get 2 notifications which show up when actually there are a whole heap of other posts there as well- which don't show show up until the NEXT time I look- leading to me cross posting for stuff that has already been answered-sorry!

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MBrockway

If you want to remove redundant posts that you have authored, click the down arrow next to the Options button and select Hide.  The post will then disappear from the topic.

 

Also you might consider responding via the Reply to this topic option rather than the Quote option.  That avoids the previous person's material being duplicated to no benefit.  For examples of what I mean see ...

Post #193

Post #141

Just a suggestion :thumbsup:

 

Mark

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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Aunty Tory

The loss of speech makes sense - I'll repost the letter from my aunt to this post which says that William was suffering from loss of speech and shell-shock - so that's a positive fit with our man.

 

If we have him on the pension record as William Abbott, do we have his enlistment under the name Abbott or Hubbard?  Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I've missed it.

 

Also fascinated by the maps and addresses - wondering if anyone knows how we can find out where WW1 bombs were dropped over London and when - one of the lines of the story mentions that William believed his sister to have been killed by a bomb?  Anyone know?

 

IMG_0129.jpeg

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ss002d6252
Quote

If we have him on the pension record as William Abbott, do we have his enlistment under the name Abbott or Hubbard?  Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I've missed it.

I can't see anything to suggest that William Abbott used any different names or enlisted under a different name for the period of service as #5284

Craig

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TEW

Which I think he had to do to enlist 11 months after he was discharged as Hubbard unfit for further military service. As he had ambitions to become a soldier and wasn't going to allow serious concussion to stand in his way so enlisted as Wm. Abbott. He then had to stick to that name as he became pensionable, possibly till 1931. It's possible that had he confessed he may have been discharged for making a false declaration and thereby forfeit the pension.

TEW.

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johnboy

What was the date of his marriage?

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TTracer44
7 minutes ago, johnboy said:

What was the date of his marriage?

6th Feb 1918

Den

Edited by TTracer44
Post 41 on page4

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johnboy

Seems strange to me that a man loses his memory, He was discharged14/12/17 and gives his address as being in Bristol and then within 2 months gets married, 

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TTracer44

 

10 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Seems strange to me that a man loses his memory, He was discharged14/12/17 and gives his address as being in Bristol and then within 2 months gets married, 

Would you be suggesting it was all geared to getting a pension, if he did get away with it, he did a lot better than a lot of other old soldiers.

Den

 

 

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Susan Tall

I've just had another Eureka moment!!

 

In trying to work out why William George Hubbard changed his name to William Abbott I decided to do a search on Ancestry for his father Robert Samuel Hubbard, but under the name Robert Samuel Abbott ----- Bingo.

 

There is an 1888 Whitechapel Electoral Register which has

Abbott  Robert Samuel  30 Haydon Street

 

I'm sure this is William's father as William George was baptised on 9th October 1887 and the address then was 38 Haydon Street.

He was baptised as William George Hubbard son of Richard Samuel Hubbard and Elizabeth Maria.   So looks as if his father used the name Abbott as well - which may explain why his daughters were registered in the name Abbott (although baptised Hubbard).  

 

Now we need to work out why Robert Samuel changed his name!  He did have a couple of occasions in prison so perhaps this is why. 

We still haven't found the family on the 1891 census so perhaps they are down under Abbott although I'm sure I've checked that.

 

Edited by Susan Tall
typed wrong year of baptism

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johnboy

I am struggling to understand memory loss.He aalledgedly lost all memory about things about himself but a very short time after can take on another persons identity. and it seems be good at it,

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Susan Tall

I think he changed his name sometime between being discharged from the Army on 15 November 1912 and re-enlisting on 27 November 1913. Maybe moved to Bristol during that year and might have met his wife to be, Bessie Price, then.  She was a housemaid at a school in Clifton in 1911.  The identity disc in the name of Abbott found near him when he was blown up in France was his own disc, so he did not have to take on a new identity - he was William Abbott by then.  

 

I've now had a good look at the 1891 census to try and find the family in Haydon Street, Whitechapel, under the name of either Hubbard or Abbott.  They are not there but it is a very strange census.  The enumerator said he did both sides of Haydon Street, but the only numbers are 30 then 39 although there are 5 families living at 39.  

Mark - have you got a map for this area in 1891 please?

 

 

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johnboy

Sorry if it has been given but can you post a link to his service records?

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Susan Tall

See my post no 91  and TEW gives a link to his papers on FindmyPast in post 107

These are the records of William George Hubbard - no records found for William Abbott

 

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Neale1961

I agree with Susan: “ I think he changed his name sometime between being discharged from the Army on 15 November 1912 and re-enlisting on 27 November 1913.”

 

He changed his names so he could re-enlist after being deemed “unfit”. I believe his “ambition as a soldier” was encouraged by his cousins*. 

 

I have been gradually working through the genealogy for the whole family starting in early 1800s, looking at all family connections in census /or with same addresses or with Abbotts. Not found too much yet, except --

Our man William Hubbard, aka Abbott had 2 first cousins* in the Kings Royal Rifle Corp. Both were the sons of Albert Henry Hubbard born 1859 – the closest brother in age to Samuel Robert Hubbard.

 

*Robert Arthur Hubbard born 1890. He enlisted 17.2.1910 - was first with Labour Corp – number 485438; and then Sgt with Rifle Corp – number 9601. SWB 428192

 

*William Frederick Hubbard born 1892 Stepney was a driver with Army Service Corp enlisted July 1910, and transferred to the Rifle Corp on 13.7.1912. His number - 10762. He died of wounds 17.9.1914.

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MBrockway
3 hours ago, Susan Tall said:

I've now had a good look at the 1891 census to try and find the family in Haydon Street, Whitechapel, under the name of either Hubbard or Abbott.  They are not there but it is a very strange census.  The enumerator said he did both sides of Haydon Street, but the only numbers are 30 then 39 although there are 5 families living at 39.  

Mark - have you got a map for this area in 1891 please?

 

 

 

Haydon Street appears to be largely commercial/light industrial premises and warehousing with little residential and that probably multi-occupancy tenements.

 

I'm not confident on the street numbering - I found a good source, but No 34 seems to be in an illogical place and I'm puzzled as to why the south side is numbered 880 to 888.  Caveats therefore apply.

 

The large building on the corner of Haydon Street and Haydon Square is the wool warehouse of Browne & Eagle Ltd.

 

You may fare better with the Census data.

 

1896 ...

1249495673_MINORIES-HaydonSt(1896)A3.jpg.037d5af63cbbdba9eccec9f8a4cf9ae0.jpg

 

Some landmark pubs

  • A. Three Lords - 27 Minories, EC3N 1DD.                          [Rebuilt 1890 and still open]
  • B. The Peacock - 41 Minories, EC3N 1DT                          [Rebuilt 1937 and still open]
  • C. Crown & Anvil - 8 Swan Street, E1 (now Portsoken St)   [Closed 1899 and now demolished]

 

The property on the corner of Haydon Street and Minories opposite The Peacock is No 40 Minories.

 

 

.Here's a zoomed out shot to show you how Leather Lane, Haydon Street and Anthony Street relate to each other. 

 

1827794299_MINORIES-HaydonSt(1896)A4.jpg.9c04223d10b0f38d753a1bd36807c9c8.jpg

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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