An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

[TEW]

Neale, thanks for the detail on his criminal side. I thought the 1st daughter born 1876 was registered as Abbott, baptised as Hubbard?

Robert had reverted to Hubbard on 1889 electoral roll but perhaps used both names for different purposes.

Depending on the level of detail Aunt Tory wants I think the birth cert for Elizabeth born 1876 could be informative.

TEW

[Susan Tall]

On 13/01/2019 at 18:34, dink999 said:

 

The confusion continues as when you search for for the birth registration of the 4 children and a mother's maiden name of Poole the 3 girls, Elizabeth, Mary and Matilda are registered with the surname Abbott, only William George with the surname Hubbard

 

Dave

 

Your right Tew, see dink999's post from way back in the thread.

I think all the children's birth certificates should be obtained just to see what they say.  It sees strange that William George wasn't given the name Abbott like his sisters.  

One thought occurred to me - could it have been his eldest sister Elizabeth who looked after him for a time after their parents died, although I think I found her in 1911 in the workhouse.  

[Aunty Tory]

On 22/02/2019 at 12:30, Neale1961 said:

I have come across some interesting information which slightly changes my thoughts on William’s life after the death of his parents and before enlisting in 1911.

William’s younger sister Mary Beatrice (born1889) was part of the scheme run by Barnardo’s Homes which sent children to Canada. She was sent on 29 April 1903 on board “Kensington” with a large group of girls to Peterborough, Ontario, Canada. In 1910 she was married and had a child in Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada.

 

Oh thanks @Neale1961 - this has jogged a memory!  My grandmother told me once that we have Hubbard relatives in Canada - apparently some came to visit (perhaps in the 50's or 60's and went to see my nan and grandad).  I would have thought it would have to be a male relative however to continue the name through marriage.

[Aunty Tory]

14 hours ago, Susan Tall said:

Thought you would like to see this court report for September 1875 when Robert Hubbard was found not guilty.  It didn't stop him committing more crimes though.  

Thanks @Susan Tall - this is fascinating!  I found the transcripts of Roberts trial at the Old Bailey:

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-531-18750920&div=t18750920-531#highlight

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-558-18790526&div=t18790526-558#highlight

 

In my aunts letter it states Robert died in an accident at work and I've been wondering what could kill a Drover?  Could it be an angry cow or a shady deal gone wrong perhaps?  It's clear that the family were always on hard times, is that what forced Robert to turn to crime, or was this the way of life at that time in that place?  His 2 year sentence at Royal Holloway Prison must have taken it's toll - it was hard labour for in-mates then, wasn't it?

[Aunty Tory]

PS @Susan Tall - Happy Birthday for Thursday - I hope your cold is better?

[TEW]

William also had 6 Uncles and Aunts from the Poole side. Born 1856-1874 including a Matilda 1867. All living in same area and presumably producing William's cousins from 1874 ish who could also be looking after him?

As to why only William was registered as Hubbard I could only come up with him being male and Robert wanted his son to continue the line and family name.

TEW

[Neale1961]

Having explored the Hubbard family as far as possible, I have not found any other explanation for the name Abbott, except that it was connected with Robert’s criminal life. The only other slightly odd thing about the Hubbard family is that out of John Jealous Hubbard’s 6 sons, 3 follow his profession of Optician and maker of nautical instruments, compasses & microscopes; and the other 3 sons become cattle drovers. I cannot think of 2 more dissimilar means of employment.

 

It does seem likely that Robert was using the alias “Abbott” from as early as the 1870s, as a way to hide from the law. I had forgotten that daughter Elizabeth’s birth was registered in 1878 as Abbott. Also in the 1875 trial, a policeman says he has been trying to find Hubbard for 6 months. Can you imagine the conversation; “No Constable, Sir. My name is Abbott. I don’t know anyone called Hubbard.” (Add cockney accent)   

I agree with TEW, that Robert kept the Hubbard name for William as he was the only child who could carry the family surname forward. Wouldn’t he be disappointed with the eventual outcome. I also agree with others that getting birth certificates could be useful.

I wonder - did William have to change his name to enlist in 1913, or could he have signed up under his real name, despite the ‘unfit’ discharge?

 

Robert Hubbard’s trial from June 1877 (with 1 year prison time) is under the name “Hubbart”: https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18770625-537

 

If Robert died as a result of an accident at work, it may have been reported in the local papers, or you may get some more detail from his death certificate. It could have been falling from a horse, or crushed by cattle, or some other accident within an abattoir. 

 

Edited 25 February , 2019 by Neale1961

[johnboy]

Is it possible that when discharged he used the name Abbot to get out of marriage responsibilities?

[TEW]

Johnboy,

No, I don't think so. He was discharged in 1912 'Unfit' as William Hubbard, rejoined 1913 as William Abbot and discharged 19/12/1917 'Wounds'. Married Feb 1918 as Harry Abbott.

TEW

[Aunty Tory]

I've ordered Roberts death certificate so we can clear up cause of death, which other certificates would be most useful?

Elizabeth (1876) birth certificate - any others?

 

[Keith Brannen]

3 hours ago, TEW said:

Johnboy,

No, I don't think so. He was discharged in 1912 'Unfit' as William Hubbard, rejoined 1913 as William Abbot and discharged 19/12/1917 'Wounds'. Married Feb 1918 as Harry Abbott.

TEW

TEW,

I don't know whether Johnboy meant this or not, but a similar thought has been in my mind. After discharge as William Hubbard he rejoins using the name William Abbott (understandable, to avoid the unfit discharge). But when he marries in 1918 it is as Harry Abbott (yet he had been William throughout his army record) and just says he is a "soldier". Yet on the birth certificate the next year, he is back to William, and gives explicit details of his army service. Also, on the pension records he is listed (obviously incorrectly) as single.  It is almost as if he tried to make the marriage as obscure as possible (in case someone was trying to track him?) and makes one wonder whether there might be a chance there had been a previous marriage under Hubbard.

[johnboy]

Sorry if I am wrong, but this is now a long thread to trawl through, I thought I read that he was married before/the war. If notI find it strange that after discharge he moved about 100m from where he grew up. Not only that, within 2mnths he was married  

[Madmeg]

Tew #272 "1888 London Electoral Register ROBERT SAMUEL ABBOTT – 30 Haydon St, Whitechapel.

·     1901 Census – name reverts to HUBBARD - living Sheridan St Stepney"

 

He is registered as Hubbard at jane Court in 1889 and under that name at Lower Chapman St from 1893 to 1901

 

 

Neale

- 

"BROMLEY WORKHOUSE, STEPNEY, TOWER HAMLETS

Admission 10 June 1910

Discharge 17 June 1910

WILLIAM HUBBARD 

Calling – CARMAN

Religion – C of E

When born -1887

Parish from which admitted - Ratcliff 

Observations – “Lunatic”"

 

This would be William George's uncle William I think- I posted a link to the Old Bailey showing him as a witness in 1909 - he was a Carman at that time and I posted his address from that link which matches the census address. EDIT- it's been a long thread and a lomg working week too- I may have mixed up an uncle from the Poole side here...

 

On 25/02/2019 at 02:20, Aunty Tory said:

Thanks @Susan Tall - this is fascinating!  I found the transcripts of Roberts trial at the Old Bailey:

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-531-18750920&div=t18750920-531#highlight

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-558-18790526&div=t18790526-558#highlight

 

In my aunts letter it states Robert died in an accident at work and I've been wondering what could kill a Drover?  Could it be an angry cow or a shady deal gone wrong perhaps?  It's clear that the family were always on hard times, is that what forced Robert to turn to crime, or was this the way of life at that time in that place?  His 2 year sentence at Royal Holloway Prison must have taken it's toll - it was hard labour for in-mates then, wasn't it?

Wkat would kill a drover (or slaughterman?) a bull, a stroppy cow or evena ram. The death cert shoul be interesting

Edited 26 February , 2019 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

John Jealous Hubbard son of Jacob and Ann.

1841 is shown under the name of Mary Ann Jealous (as JJ Hubbard) . 

From looking at the 1841 entry I am reading this as Jacob is HoH, the younger children are listed below him and his wife.

Then Mary Ann is with the family- possibly in separate rooms in the house with her nephew JJ in her part of the house (otherwise the list order is odd,) Jealous appears to be wife Ann's maiden name.

 

1851- JJ has married and has son Edward - living with him are younger brothers George an William,

1851-unmarried  Mary Ann Jealous is living with neice Mary Hubbard and nephew Thomas - from the ages it seems likely that Thomas is probably the illegitemate son of young Mary (assumed to be JJ's sister)

I haven't traced Mary Ann J any further as yet.

 

 

It is possible that William and George die shortly after (death reg) haven;t been able to spot them in subsequent census records.

 

I also find it odd that three of the sons become respectable opticians while others become drovers

[TEW]

20 hours ago, Aunty Tory said:

I've ordered Roberts death certificate so we can clear up cause of death, which other certificates would be most useful?

Elizabeth (1876) birth certificate - any others?

 

 

I think the one for Elizabeth is this one, confirmation from someone else before you part with money would be good.

 

Seems that Robert chopped and changed his name at will and I can find no Abbott connection so it must be as others have said his 'Criminal Alias'. Quite how it helps to register some children under the alias I'm not sure.

 

Nor can I see a lot of value in William sometimes being William or Harry Abbott. Would Bessie have seen this as odd? What was the pension related problem that cropped up in 1931 after his death? Did she write in enquiring after Harry Abbott?

TEW

[Susan Tall]

Yes that is the certificate to order - it gives the mother's maiden name as Poole.

 

johnboy - you said you thought that he was married before the war.  For about 15 minutes so did I, having found a marriage of a William George Hubbard, but it turned out to be his uncles' second marriage.  I have looked through all the Hubbard marriages in that area between 1912-1917 but haven't found a previous marriage for William George.  Have also searched on Hubbart and Abbott without success.  So I think his first marriage was to Bessie but of course he was known as Abbott then.

[johnboy]

Have you edited that post to show that? This is a very long thread and even more confusing if posts are not updated

[Susan Tall]

Sorry Johnny, although the thread is long I've got it all in my head (as well as the flu for the last few days!)  I hadn't realised quite how confusing it is for people dropping in and out of the thread.

 

Back in post 91 I suggested a possible marriage in 1917, then in the next few posts it was confirmed by Tew that it was not our man.  It was in fact his uncle William George born 1862 son of John Jealous and Anna Hubbard. He was previously married to Priscilla Elizabeth Fricker (m 1895) and had children William Hubbard 1895 and Alfred Hubbard 1898.

 

 

[Neale1961]

13 hours ago, Madmeg said:

"BROMLEY WORKHOUSE, STEPNEY, TOWER HAMLETS

Admission 10 June 1910

Discharge 17 June 1910

WILLIAM HUBBARD 

Calling – CARMAN

Religion – C of E

When born -1887

Parish from which admitted - Ratcliff 

Observations – “Lunatic”"

 

This would be William George's uncle William I think- I posted a link to the Old Bailey showing him as a witness in 1909 - he was a Carman at that time and I posted his address from that link which matches the census address. EDIT- it's been a long thread and a lomg working week too- I may have mixed up an uncle from the Poole side here...

 Madmeg - you are incorrect. Uncle Wiliam George Hubbard was born in 1862. This Bromley workhouse record is for William born 1887.

 

You are also incorrect with the William Hubbard witness at the Old Bailey in 1909. He was from Spitalfields and the census shows him born there and living there for over 40 years - I believe a completely different family from the Hubbard family associated with this thread.

Edited 26 February , 2019 by Neale1961

[Aunty Tory]

So, Robert Hubbards (father of William) death certificate has come back, with no mention of an accident at work.  So, we can rule out that part of the story.  

COL389441_2019-1-ROBERT_SAMUEL_HUBBARD.pdf

Edited 1 March , 2019 by Aunty Tory

[Neale1961]

On Forces War Records, there are 3 items for William Abbott and W Abbott no 5284  (rifleman and private) with Rifle Brigade dates 1914, 1916, 1917.

I wonder if someone with access can look to see if there is any information about William's WW1 service that we do not already have?

[MBrockway]

Since the thread is now so large, I thought I re-post some of the key information about 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT, 3/RB.

 

It stretches the length even further, but that may be justified by the increased convenience of bringing it all together again.

 

Also I'd like to echo Neale's excellent suggestion for some kind Pal to post the info from the three FWR hits - could be very useful indeed.

Mark

 

 

On 10/02/2019 at 16:59, alf mcm said:

Fold 3 has a pension ledger index card for William Abbott, 5284.  https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/644728937?terms=WILLIAM ABBOTT 5284    He is living in 48 Churchill Road, Bristol, and is single. He was discharged on 19/12/1917, prior to marrying in 1918. Date of birth is given as 1893.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

 

On 10/02/2019 at 17:09, MBrockway said:

Silver War Badge roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT, 3/RB.  A pre-war Regular, enlisted 27 Nov 1913.  Discharged due to Wounds on 19 Dec 1917.

 

 

 

This man's MIC ...

 

Mark

 

 

 

On 10/02/2019 at 17:19, MBrockway said:

 

Image (slightly cropped) of the [daughter's birth certificate that mentions father as being former RB] posted in-line to save Pals having to open the PDF ...

 

 

 

On 10/02/2019 at 17:27, MBrockway said:

The Rifle Brigade British War Medal/Victory Medal roll page for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT only mentions service in 3rd battalion, but it is listed twice, so it is likely he had two periods with 3/RB separated by time in the UK sick or wounded.

 

1914-15 Star roll confirms Overseas date as 22 Sep 1915, so he was sent out as a replenishment draft and did not go out with the battalion even though he appears to have been in the battalion since 27 Nov 1913.

 

None of his RB documentation gives a middle initial.  How sure are we that this is the same man as William George ABBOTT from Stepney/Holborn.  This man seems to be connected with Bristol rather than London.

 

Mark

 

 

On 10/02/2019 at 18:26, Susan Tall said:

You ask how sure we are that Rfn William Abbott is the same as William George Abbott from Stepney (really William George Hubbard)

 

I've just read the whole thread through again and Rfn William Abbott is definitely Aunty Tory's gt-grandfather from Bristol and the solicitors letter gives the link between Mrs Richley, (Matilda Alice) the daughter of Robert Samuel Hubbard, who said she had a brother William Henry Hubbard who had some trouble with the Army as a result of which he changed his name to Henry Abbott.  Further research has shown that this William Henry Hubbard was in fact William George Hubbard.  

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2019 by MBrockway

[Neale1961]

Thanks Mark, I was in the process of doing something similar ( a summary), but was curious about the 1914 dated item on Forces War records, and wondered if there was some detail that had been missed.

[MBrockway]

No problem Neale.  Andy's already done an extensive trawl for 5284 Rfn William ABBOTT, 3/RB in his RB archives, but having found nothing that casts light on the mystery, decided not to add to an already very long topic!

[TEW]

The W Abbott 5284 record on FWR probably relates to the MH106 record I found via FMP. post #197

Quote

He also pops up on FMP with a MH106 record for 4th Stationary Hospital. Discharged to duty 14/12/1915, condition = constipation. Age given as 22 (1893) with 2½ years of service and 3 months field service.

 The other FWR records may just be his Medal Info & SWB but can't be certain.

 

More from post#197

Quote

He also shows up on WO Official Casualty List in The TImes 3/10/1916 which may give rise to the home break he had at some point.

TEW