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AndrewFrench

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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Susan Tall

Glad we've worked out who Mrs Ratley was.

She is Matilda Hubbard, and on the 1901 census in Stepney together with brother William (as in my previous message).  

I'm convinced the baptism is right for 1887 even though the name is William George. Often people baptised a child with one name and then called him something else!

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ss002d6252

A possible from a 1905 newspaper

image.png.cd902e67d484e2388d1edb0b8d22decd.png

 

Craig

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Aunty Tory

Well if he was a deserter, that would explain a lot in the story, but would there be an army record of some sort?

I've ordered his marriage and death certificate, so we'll see if that sheds further light.   Does the part about believing his sister to be dead due to bombing ring true?  If they lived in the Poplar area during WW1 is there some record of the streets that were hit?

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ss002d6252
Just now, Aunty Tory said:

Well if he was a deserter, that would explain a lot in the story, but would there be an army record of some sort?

I've ordered his marriage and death certificate, so we'll see if that sheds further light.   Does the part about believing his sister to be dead due to bombing ring true?  If they lived in the Poplar area during WW1 is there some record of the streets that were hit?

A lot of records have been weeded, lost or destroyed over the years.

The bombing part could be true, from 1915 onwards parts of London was being bombed.

Craig

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dink999
48 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

Well I've found him on the 1901 census and his baptism, but it is even more confusing now!

 

In 1901 he is at 32 Sheridan St, Stepney with father Robert Hubbard, 44, a Cattle Drover, mother Elizabeth 43. 

William is down as 13 and born at City Minories.  Also in the family are Mary, 13, born Whitechapel, Matilda, 15 a cigar maker born Whitechapel and Elizabeth, 25, a domestic servant, born St Georges East.

 

I found his baptism in Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, on 9th October 1887, born 25th August 1887, son of Robert Samuel and Elizabeth Maria Hubbard, 38 Haydon St.  Robert Samuel is a drover, BUT he was christened as William George Hubbard.

 

His sister Mary was baptised Mary Beatrice Hubbard, same church on 5th May 1889.  (The ages on the census are wrong as it has both William and Mary as aged 13).

 

Robert Samuel died in 1901 and his wife shortly after according to the aunt's report.

 

I can't find him in the 1911 census, but then I was looking for William Henry and not William George.

His older sister Elizabeth appears to be in Tower Hamlets workhouse.  She is a Cook but the reason for her being there is "No Home".

 

Will now go and look for a William George Hubbard!!

 

 

The confusion continues as when you search for for the birth registration of the 4 children and a mother's maiden name of Poole the 3 girls, Elizabeth, Mary and Matilda are registered with the surname Abbott, only William George with the surname Hubbard

 

Dave

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Susan Tall

No, don't think that is him as initials are wrong and place of birth.

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Susan Tall

dink999  This is getting curioser and curiouser with those Abbott birth registrations.  They were all baptised as Hubbard

 

Elizabeth Maria Hubbard baptised 1st October 1876 at Christ Church, Watney St, Tower Hamlets, Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 12 Umberton St.

Matilda Alice Hubbard baptised 10 Jan 1886, Whitechapel St Jude. Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 3 New Castle Place, Whitechapel.

William George Hubbard, baptised 16 October 1887, born 25 August 1887, Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 36 Haydon St.

Mary Beatrice Hubbard, baptised 5 May 1889, Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, father Richard Samuel a cattle drover, living at 49 Church St.

 

These baptisms are from the original parish records on Ancestry.

Just where is the name Abbott coming from??

 

 

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johnboy

I think the bombing referred to was June 1917 when a school was hit resulting in many casualties,

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Madmeg

Robert Samuel drover is listed as being in prison in 1881, can;t find the family in 1891 census as yet- either as Hubbard or Abbott- still searching

 

Before anyone follows the solicitor's letter up too far I would add that it appears to be seriously lacking in detail and possibly inaccurate.

John and Annie Hubbard had far more children than the two shown here and none of them appears to be called Robert Samuel b 1856. There is a Robert b 1855 St pancras and a Robert b 1860 St Lukes.  Robert of St Pancras does have a sister called Mathilda (after her mother). Alice Maud is with John and Annie in several census. Caution advised!

 

 

Edited by Madmeg

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Madmeg

Going back to Harry Abbott-

and assuming that he was known as William Henry ABBOTT but used Harry for short- this would 'work" for the death registration- his wife knew his first name was William but always called him Harry.

This also gives a service record (I searched William H Abbott b Bristol) and some pension cards for William Abbots but NO medal card- which is odd and interesting. I only have the index entries so can;t check if that is any use.

 

Here is census entry for a possible- note regiment is same as for William Henry Hubbard deserter above- which could give some credence to the ID swap story- although this man could have been born in London, Wiltshire or Somerset going by other WH Abbotts born 1891 in the census of that year. Also as the deserter's address is given as Norwood Surrey it seems more likely that he was from one of the Hubbard families found in the Croyden area perhaps rather than from the city/tower hamlets area.

William H Abbott

United Kingdom, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920

birth:
1891
 
residence:
 
Dover, ,
military service:
1914
 
    
  • William H Abbott
United Kingdom, World War I Service Records
Name William H Abbott
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1914
Residence Place Dover, ,
Age 23
Military Company/Regiment Royal Garrison Artillery
Military Regiment 1057
Military Battalion Kent
Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
 
Citing this Record

"United Kingdom, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBL-K5B4 : 16 March 2018), William H Abbott, 1914; citing Dover, ,, Royal Garrison Artillery, regiment #1057, publication WO 363, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey; FHL microfilm 7,284,813.

 

 

Edited by Madmeg

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Madmeg

Ok - with some more chasing up I can absolutely see why the solicitor has got this so mixed up and the whole thing is so confused.

Will work more on this family later this evening and get a better family tree out there. I think it is possible there is a whole generation missing from the info in the pdfs, or that the family story has become attached to the wrong generation entirely.

 

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Madmeg

I have a fair bit of info now on this family- it isn't Great War so I will PM the OP.

 

But quickly-

 

The solicitor has missed out a lot of the children of John J Hubbard. Robert does not show up on familysearch for 1861 - I think I have found him in the ancestry index

Robert is difficult to track- still working on the Abbott thing.

 

 

Edited by Madmeg

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Buffnut453

Re the Abbott thing, this may be a totally stupid suggestion but how literate were the soldier's parents?  Is it possible that the registrar misheard Hubbard as Abbott and the problem wasn't caught because the parents couldn't read?

 

My Great-Grandmother's surname of Gamble was mis-transcribed as Campbell on her marriage certificate, even though her brother, who was a witness, had his name spelled correctly as Gamble.

 

I realise this is something of a stretch but I've encountered stranger things in genealogy records.

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Susan Tall

Robert is on the 1861 census in Stepney, Mile End Old Town with parents John & Ann Hubbard, and siblings Edward 11, Amy 9, Ann 6 and Albert 2.  He is aged 4 a scholar and born in Stepney.

 

Can't find him on the 1871 census with his parents.

 

I know the solicitors letters leaves out a lot of the children of John Jealous Hubbard and Anna but I think basically it is right. What they are doing is providing the link from Richard John Waugh back to his mother Alice Maud Hubbard (later Waugh, later Lovell), then back to her father John Jealous Hubbard and then down through his son Robert Samuel Hubbard and then on to William Henry Hubbard/Abbott.  This is to prove inheritance of the money left by Richard John Waugh.  He and William Henry Hubbard/Abbott were first cousins.  

 

Interestingly John Jealous Hubbard is still alive in 1911 aged 84 and living with his daughter Alice Maud (now Waugh), her husband Richard Waugh and son Richard John and daughter Annie Mary.

 

I'm wondering if Richard Samuel being in prison in 1881 is the reason for the name Abbott appearing in the family.  Perhaps changed their name whilst he was inside.  There is a gap in the birth of the children from Elizabeth 1876 to Matilda Alice 1886, then William George 1887 and Mary Beatrice 1889.  As I said before their baptisms are under the name Hubbard, but strange about the birth registrations being Abbott.

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Aunty Tory
11 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Robert Samuel drover is listed as being in prison in 1881, can;t find the family in 1891 census as yet- either as Hubbard or Abbott- still searching

 

Before anyone follows the solicitor's letter up too far I would add that it appears to be seriously lacking in detail and possibly inaccurate.

John and Annie Hubbard had far more children than the two shown here and none of them appears to be called Robert Samuel b 1856. There is a Robert b 1855 St pancras and a Robert b 1860 St Lukes.  Robert of St Pancras does have a sister called Mathilda (after her mother). Alice Maud is with John and Annie in several census. Caution advised!

 

 

I did a bit of research into Robert Samuels incarceration - turns out he appeared twice at the Old Bailey, once accused of taking a cow to the wrong person which according to the transcript, his brother came and vouched for him as an innocent mistake, and he wasn't charged.  The second time there is no transcript of the court hearing, but he is found guilty of stealing a piece of beef and sentenced to 2 years in Royal Holloway prison.  

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Aunty Tory
10 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Ok - with some more chasing up I can absolutely see why the solicitor has got this so mixed up and the whole thing is so confused.

Will work more on this family later this evening and get a better family tree out there. I think it is possible there is a whole generation missing from the info in the pdfs, or that the family story has become attached to the wrong generation entirely.

 

It is very confusing isn't it?  And there are a lot of Hubbards seemingly of similar age and with similar names.  The one thing that makes me think the family line is the correct one is that the solicitors letter spoke of his sister, who by then was a Mrs Richley.  I found Matilda Alice Hubbard (then became Gadd) re-married to a Robert Richley in June of 1920.  My aunts account that she had been to London to see an Aunty Doll whose husband was Bob seems to tie in.  According to her note, this Bob (who I am assuming is Robert Richley) was blind and attended or worked at St Dunstans.  Tenuous I know, but thats as far as I've managed to get so far.

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Aunty Tory
19 hours ago, Keith Brannen said:

Aunty Tory, just a quick read of the information shows that the 1931 death certificate of Henry J. is not the one to order. IMG_0132.pdf states that he died 2nd August 1931 and "in this record is described as William Abbott". If so, then the death certificate you want is for William Abbott, aged 36, death registered in the September quarter 1931.

Thank you Keith, I've (hopefully) ordered the correct one!

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TEW
On 13 January 2019 at 19:00, Susan Tall said:

dink999  This is getting curioser and curiouser with those Abbott birth registrations.  They were all baptised as Hubbard

 

Elizabeth Maria Hubbard baptised 1st October 1876 at Christ Church, Watney St, Tower Hamlets, Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 12 Umberton St.

Matilda Alice Hubbard baptised 10 Jan 1886, Whitechapel St Jude. Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 3 New Castle Place, Whitechapel.

William George Hubbard, baptised 16 October 1887, born 25 August 1887, Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, Father Richard Samuel a drover, living at 36 Haydon St.

Mary Beatrice Hubbard, baptised 5 May 1889, Holy Trinity Minories, Tower Hamlets, father Richard Samuel a cattle drover, living at 49 Church St.

 

These baptisms are from the original parish records on Ancestry.

Just where is the name Abbott coming from??

 

 

 

Just looked at originals on Ancestry and W G Hubbard's birth is given as 12th Sept 1887.

 

Police Gazette - Tuesday 18 September 1917 via British Newspaper Archive has a William J Hubbard born circa 1886 as a 'Mariner' & deserter. Last address given as 'Schooner Almiza', Whitstable. Deserted from Herne Bay 9/12/1916.

 

Discovery has a William George Hubbard in ADM188, born Poplar 5/8/1891.

Both possibly more red-herrings

 

TEW

 

Edited by TEW
Source Correction

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Susan Tall

Thanks for pointing out my mistake for William George Hubbard's date of birth - my eyes moved up to the entry above his!

This date ties up with the civil registration that Dink999 found (above) - 1887 D quarter Whitechapel.

 

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Aunty Tory
2 hours ago, TEW said:

 

Just looked at originals on Ancestry and W G Hubbard's birth is given as 12th Sept 1887.

 

Police Gazette - Tuesday 18 September 1917 via FMP has a William J Hubbard born circa 1886 as a 'Mariner' & deserter. Last address given as 'Schooner Almiza', Whitstable. Deserted from Herne Bay 9/12/1917.

 

Discovery has a William George Hubbard in ADM188, born Poplar 5/8/1891.

Both possibly more red-herrings

 

TEW

 

Well, we know he was in Bristol in February of 1918 because that's when he got married, so it's a possible lead.  What's Schooner Almiza do you think - a boat?  Does that mean this chap deserted from the navy or the army?  Our man says he was an ex-rifleman in the 3rd Rifle Brigade, (he listed this as his occupation on his daughters birth certificate), so I'm wondering if/ how this fits with the marine references.

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MBrockway
5 minutes ago, Aunty Tory said:

Our man says he was an ex-rifleman in the 3rd Rifle Brigade, (he listed this as his occupation on his daughters birth certificate), so I'm wondering if/ how this fits with the marine references.

 

Could we have a scan of this document please?

 

Failing that, could you transcribe it exactly?  We'll need the date and location of the document too please.

 

Andy and I are both watching this topic, but there's too much uncertainty on the Rifle Brigade elements for us to get involved as yet.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

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ss002d6252
14 minutes ago, Aunty Tory said:

Well, we know he was in Bristol in February of 1918 because that's when he got married, so it's a possible lead.  What's Schooner Almiza do you think - a boat?  Does that mean this chap deserted from the navy or the army?  Our man says he was an ex-rifleman in the 3rd Rifle Brigade, (he listed this as his occupation on his daughters birth certificate), so I'm wondering if/ how this fits with the marine references. 

A schooner is a sailing ship.

 

Craig

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Madmeg

Robert was in prison twice-note the comment saying he was a previous felon- there is an earlier conviction- 1877 Robert Hubbart aged twenty stealing 1 1/2 cwt fat - they got 12 months-plus there was a previous conviction at Clerkenwell in 1874.

 

Then 1879 that two years- I haven;t found a later conviction that would cover the births of those children- who I can't find in 1881 while he was inside- can anyone fin the family then? I've tried under Abbott - but no luck- I did wonder if perhaps Elizabeth decided that Robert was not worth it and met someone else while he was inside? (Sorry Aunty Tory!). I'm still working on them and putting them together to PM you.

Edited by Madmeg

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