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Remembered Today:

An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia


AndrewFrench

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Also agree with Susan's post#221 and info in #219 intriguing. My guess that the amnesia and speech loss were real but perhaps he had to play on it a bit. Bear in mind his false name is on marriage & birth certs and his wife knew him as Abbott until after his death. Was the marriage legal?

Still not 100% clear on pension but it does appear his was for a single man with no children. He married as Harry (I think?) But was William to the army. He would have had to attend medical boards periodically. Feigning a bit of amnesia sounds like a good ploy out of the hole he dug himself into which mainly came about by being wounded.

No idea when he took up residence in Bristol but I'm not convinced that he just took up a new life and the 'memories came back to him' part. Think he may have been more switched on. 

TEW

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From post 1 Both his parents died when he was young and he was raised by a sister Alice Maud.

The name is correct for his AUNT. Alice Maud Hubbard married Adam Douglas Waugh in 1893. In 1896-97 living 149 Oxford St Stepney, in 1898 at 132 Jubilee Street.

Her husband died in 1901 and at census time she is living with her father John Jealous Hubbard and her children at 23 Upton Pk Road Forest Gate. She remarries in 1913.

 

Also of interest in 1911 census for William George Hubbard (the uncle to our man, and brother to Robert) also a drover. Living Mile End New Town.

His son (also William born 1895) is working as an errand boy for a GROCER.  Insubstantial I know - but maybe the same grocer (Hornblower) that our man had worked for a few years earlier??? Also not the Leather Lane address.

 

Last thought: it is possible that the amnesia resulted from the severe concussion in 1912, and in the family memory over time, this has been combined with the shell shock he suffered in his later military service.

Edited by Neale1961
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Yes, I thought that bits of the 'story' may have been conflated eg concussion/amnesia 1912 with speech loss during the war. It also occurred to me that a lot of the story eg 'found almost dead, ID disc found near him, mistaken for Abbott' are explanations the family came up with after his death.

Anyone get anywhere with Fanny Hubbard and Maria Eversfield nee Hubbard at 40 Anthony St. in 1891?

TEW

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Can't see any link between Fanny Hubbard and Maria Eversfield with 'our' Hubbards.  Aged 63 and 56, both widows, born Cambridgeshire.

Where did the Maria Eversfield nee Hubbard come from?

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1891 census, Maria Eversfield sister to Fanny Hubbard both living at 40 Anthony St. Both born Cambridgeshire 1825 & 1823 respectively.

 

Just looking at present at previous censuses for these two and they're coming out as born Papworth Everard, Cambs and/or Papworth St Ives Cambs.

 

I think Fanny in 1841 is married to Henry Hubbard and living in Rotherhithe with son William aged 4. Henry was a police constable.

She was widowed by 1861. I think Fanny died early 1901.

 

Both ladies in St Georges In the East area 1871 onwards.

 

Not sure about the née part now, maybe neither born as Hubbard but living at 40 Anthony St. 1891- coincidence?

TEW

Edited by TEW
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15 hours ago, Neale1961 said:

From post 1 Both his parents died when he was young and he was raised by a sister Alice Maud.

The name is correct for his AUNT. Alice Maud Hubbard married Adam Douglas Waugh in 1893. In 1896-97 living 149 Oxford St Stepney, in 1898 at 132 Jubilee Street.

Her husband died in 1901 and at census time she is living with her father John Jealous Hubbard and her children at 23 Upton Pk Road Forest Gate. She remarries in 1913.

 

Also of interest in 1911 census for William George Hubbard (the uncle to our man, and brother to Robert) also a drover. Living Mile End New Town.

His son (also William born 1895) is working as an errand boy for a GROCER.  Insubstantial I know - but maybe the same grocer (Hornblower) that our man had worked for a few years earlier??? Also not the Leather Lane address.

 

Last thought: it is possible that the amnesia resulted from the severe concussion in 1912, and in the family memory over time, this has been combined with the shell shock he suffered in his later military service.

 

 

149 Oxford Street, Stepney - Oxford St is the modern Stepney Way.  No 149 was on the north side between Jubilee Street and Dempsey Street.  The whole area has been totally redeveloped.  The line of modern Jubilee Street is unchanged, but Dempsey Street has disappeared.  It left Oxford St/Stepney Way at approx 70yds east of Jubilee Road.

 

The approximate post code for 149 Oxford Street would be E1 3EE.  The modern house numbering is not far off the same as 149 Stepney Way is just around the corner.

 

132 Jubilee Street - Modern Jubilee Street keeps the same line, but the housing lining it has gone in place of modern blocks.  No 132 was on the east side between Oxford Street (modern Stepney Way) and Smith Street (unchanged) and seven houses and 30yds north of the corner of Oxford St (Stepney Way) and Jubilee Street.  It's about 75yds from 149 Oxford Street.

 

23 Upton Pk Road Forest Gate - this address appears to have survived unchanged.

 

HTH

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/02/2019 at 23:46, MBrockway said:

 

Haydon Street appears to be largely commercial/light industrial premises and warehousing with little residential and that probably multi-occupancy tenements.

 

I'm not confident on the street numbering - I found a good source, but No 34 seems to be in an illogical place and I'm puzzled as to why the south side is numbered 880 to 888.  Caveats therefore apply.

 

The large building on the corner of Haydon Street and Haydon Square is the wool warehouse of Browne & Eagle Ltd.

 

You may fare better with the Census data.

 

1896 ...

1249495673_MINORIES-HaydonSt(1896)A3.jpg.037d5af63cbbdba9eccec9f8a4cf9ae0.jpg

 

Some landmark pubs

  • A. Three Lords - 27 Minories, EC3N 1DD.                          [Rebuilt 1890 and still open]
  • B. The Peacock - 41 Minories, EC3N 1DT                          [Rebuilt 1937 and still open]
  • C. Crown & Anvil - 8 Swan Street, E1 (now Portsoken St)   [Closed 1899 and now demolished]

 

The property on the corner of Haydon Street and Minories opposite The Peacock is No 40 Minories.

 

 

.Here's a zoomed out shot to show you how Leather Lane, Haydon Street and Anthony Street relate to each other. 

 

1827794299_MINORIES-HaydonSt(1896)A4.jpg.9c04223d10b0f38d753a1bd36807c9c8.jpg

 

Mark

 

Sorry Mark, only just seen your two maps.  Am still trying to work out where the Hubbards/Abbotts are in 1891.  They could well have been missed by the census enumerator as the area around Haydon Street looks quite problematical.  I'll keep searching.  

 

Thanks for the map showing Leather Lane - it's certainly quite a way from Haydon St/Anthony St area.  Perhaps William George moved over that way and did indeed work as a grocer's assistant for Mr Hornblower.     

 

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BROMLEY WORKHOUSE, STEPNEY, TOWER HAMLETS

Admission 10 June 1910

Discharge 17 June 1910

WILLIAM HUBBARD 

Calling – CARMAN

Religion – C of E

When born -1887

Parish from which admitted - Ratcliff 

Observations – “Lunatic”

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On 31/01/2019 at 14:43, Susan Tall said:

I've found his Service Papers!!  Well not his WW1 papers but prewar.

On FindmyPast in the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913 are the Attestation Papers for William George Hubbard (remember he was baptised with this name) into the Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment, dated 4th September 1911.

 

His intended place of residence on discharge was 14 Brunswick Place, Stepney, London.  His conduct and character were good but he didn't get any qualifications and was not entitled to any medals or a pension. His discharge date was 15th November 1912, and he signed the discharge documents.

 

 

Sue

 

14 Brunswick Place is in Ratcliff Ward and in Ratcliff Civil Parish.

 

 

 

 

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This is the household at 14 Brunswick Place in the 1911 Census ....

 

Quote

  

image.png.c13628915328b8c58798a0394901252f.png

 

image.png.744e2fddd77697a3a936274d7ce3520b.png

(a) one further child died in infancy

(b) 7 children: 3 surviving, 4 died

 

 

Here is the census page on Ancestry (subscription required)

 

While there seems no obvious connection immediately, the birthplaces in Holborn and Minories may be clues:  Leather Lane and Beauchamp Street are in Holborn Civil Parish; Haydon Street is in Minories parish, which is itself tiny.

 

The PRIOR family seem to have moved from Holborn (~1859-1880) to Stepney via the Minories (~1892).

 

If a link can be established with the PRIOR family, then we may be on to something.

 

Edited by MBrockway
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April 1911 Census: Uncle Arthur Frederick Hubbard (Labourer-Drover) at 5 Lufton Place, Halley St, Limehouse Fields with his son Arthur employed as a “Carman”.

but by - Dec 1911 Uncle Arthur Frederick Hubbard (Drover) is “Destitute” and in Mile End Workhouse, Stepney.

If the family struggled to keep a roof over their head, there would be lots of different addresses.

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.... and by April 1913 Uncle Arthur is dead.

There is a private tree on Ancestry which gives his date of death as 29th April 1913.

On Ancestry there is a burial on 3 May 1913 of Arthur F Hubbard, aged 46, London County Asylum, Ilford.  Buried in Chingford Mount Cemetery.

 

Like your Bromley Workhouse find for William Hubbard.  Wonder what the exact definition of "Lunatic" is.  And if he only stayed there for 7 days where did he go?

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On 13/02/2019 at 00:11, TEW said:

Also agree with Susan's post#221 and info in #219 intriguing. My guess that the amnesia and speech loss were real but perhaps he had to play on it a bit. Bear in mind his false name is on marriage & birth certs and his wife knew him as Abbott until after his death. Was the marriage legal?

Still not 100% clear on pension but it does appear his was for a single man with no children. He married as Harry (I think?) But was William to the army. He would have had to attend medical boards periodically. Feigning a bit of amnesia sounds like a good ploy out of the hole he dug himself into which mainly came about by being wounded.

No idea when he took up residence in Bristol but I'm not convinced that he just took up a new life and the 'memories came back to him' part. Think he may have been more switched on. 

TEW

I've been wondering about this, especially as he named his first born son Robert Henry, and on his marriage certificate, he remembers his fathers name as Robert Samuel.  I'm not clear on how patients are affected by amnesia, but I would have thought if he couldn't remember his identity, family or home that he'd have had difficulty remembering the name of his own father.

 

This is all getting more and more exciting! 

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On 13/02/2019 at 23:50, Susan Tall said:

Can't see any link between Fanny Hubbard and Maria Eversfield with 'our' Hubbards.  Aged 63 and 56, both widows, born Cambridgeshire.

Where did the Maria Eversfield nee Hubbard come from?

I posted this some time ago. 

 

Check out #136 for various addresses 

 For Fanny MALDEN and Maria MALDEN#143. Fanny's husband was Henry a policeman who died soon after the marriage- there does not appear to be a connection.

 Arthur Fred #189

 

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On 12/02/2019 at 22:03, MBrockway said:

If you want to remove redundant posts that you have authored, click the down arrow next to the Options button and select Hide.  The post will then disappear from the topic.

 

Also you might consider responding via the Reply to this topic option rather than the Quote option.  That avoids the previous person's material being duplicated to no benefit.  For examples of what I mean see ...

Post #193

Post #141

Just a suggestion :thumbsup:

 

Mark

 

 

That entirely fails to answer my problem which is about GWF NOT showing other people's postings, I am quite aware of the differences between the "reply" and "quote" optlons, thank you.

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Looking at the letter posted by the OP- it states that he visited an Uncle in 1928-9

 

I think John R may have died in 1930's, haven;t noted it down.

 

Edward John -b1850 Rotherhithe -d 1923 Barnet :1871- optician,1881 Bromley scientific instrument maker, = Mary 1850 Plymouth: Mary A- poplar 1874, Archibald -Bromley 1876 (1891 machine boy), Bertram T -1879 Bromley. 1891 Boleyn Rd W Ham, Surveying instrument maker, 1901 Boleyn Rd -Mary, William ,Alfred Cross visitor b nz 1876 theological student. 

 

John Richard b  d ?-= Sarah Evans – stepson Archibald Evans, 1860 stepney 1871 optician app. 

 

Robert Samuel- cattle drover- b 1857 stepney-d 1901- = Elizabeth Poole, Elizabeth 1876, Mathilda Alice, William George b 1887 Whitechapel d as William Harry Abbott 1931 Bristol, Mary Beatrice

 

Arthur Frederick-1865 stepney: cattle drover, admitted asylum 1911 died 1913- Arthur Frederick 1893, Edward Sidney 1896

 

William George b- d?d 57 1909 London City?- 1881  –Stepney, shoemakers shopman, with parents ,1891 cattle drover- King John St MEOT (with parents),  1901 Whitechapel Hanbury St, driver, = Priscilla m1895- d 1904, William 1896 whitechapel, Alfred 1899 Whitechapel.

Old Bailey 1904 William snr witness in wounding case – carman 163 Hanbury St Spitalfield

 

Alfred Henry-stepney b1860-d1918 (west Ham) 1881 nautical instrument maker, 1891 Electrical light engineer= Jane.  1901 braSS FINISHER= SARAH A 1875, Robert H 1890, William F 1892.

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1 hour ago, Madmeg said:

That entirely fails to answer my problem which is about GWF NOT showing other people's postings, I am quite aware of the differences between the "reply" and "quote" optlons, thank you.

 

What then is your justification for including in full my enormous post here in post #141 in your reply that immediately follows it?

 

To have done this deliberately seems very peculiar.

 

Are you saying that my content in your reply in #141 is not visible in your browser?  It certainly is in mine :(

 

Can other Pals check to see if this is a wider problem.  Could be an incorrect setting somewhere - there's an Expand/Contract button at the left end of the title bar of the quoted material.  For me this defaults to Expand.  Perhaps Madmeg has inadvertantly switched this over somewhere?

 

Mark

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26 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Can other Pals check to see if this is a wider problem. 

Doesn't seem to be. I can see all the comment and all the images in the quote as per the original post by yourself.

I agree. Quoting a whole post, in totality, seems rather a waste of time and space.

Just a selective quote is adequate.

 

More importantly, it is confusing for other casual readers (like myself) who basically "lose the thread", lose interest, and move away.

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I didn't intend to quote the whole thing- unfortunately there didn't seem to be a way to cut it down to the bits I wanted.  

 

My issue is that I get (eg) two posts showing on the notification, I check it out and reply, shut down the page an then come back later to find that there were, in fact, maybe five other posts not just the two I could see- some of which may have already provided and answer- which I have then uplicated because the other posts weren't showing.

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6 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

I didn't intend to quote the whole thing- unfortunately there didn't seem to be a way to cut it down to the bits I wanted. 

You just select the text you want to quote (Left click and drag),click on the "Quote Selection" bubble,  and that brings up the text in a quote box in the reply section.

 

9 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

I didn't intend to quote the whole thing

Easy!

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We've all been concentrating on the Hubbards.I've been having a look at the maternal sie and finding some other problems...

 

In 1871 Elizabeth Poole (wife of Rbt Sml Hubbard, mother of Wm G) is living with her mother (also Elzabeth) an several siblings. (Edward b 1860 - d1891, Isaac b 1870 found in 1891 with wife Julia - occ Carman- appears to have died 1921 but haven't found in 1901 or 1911, William John b 1864) The whole family from St Geo in East.

 

Then in 1881 We find mother Elizabeth but now she is with husband William! Plus a number of siblings of Elizabeth junior (who has by now married and moved away.

 

In 1891 Younger siblings Matilda, George (Thomas) and Rebecca (Eliza) are living with oldest sister Mary Ann.

1891 Matilda marries George Marling.

1901 brother George an sister Rebecca are living as boarders with George Marling (presumably widowed) and his children- in Agra St- ie just own the roa from Robert Samuel and family in Lower Chapman.

 

George and Rebecca then disappear as does Mary Ann.

 

The only possible marriage I can fin for William and Elizabeth is for a William John Poole to Elizabeth Maria Adams- Bethnal Green 1854- probably needs the marriage cert to get more details- it's a bit out of the area so it may not be them. Her father is possibly James (1851 census). I havent been able to track William through the earlier census or find him in 1871.

Neither William nor Elizabeth appear to be in 1891 census, but it's too late at night to do much more with them.

 

So far not seeing any Abbotts on the Poole side- and wondering where father William was lurking in 1871.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

You just select the text you want to quote (Left click and drag),click on the "Quote Selection" bubble,  and that brings up the text in a quote box in the reply section.

 

Easy!

ahah- thanks!

Edited by Madmeg
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On 17/02/2019 at 20:09, MBrockway said:

 

If a link can be established with the PRIOR family, then we may be on to something.

Brockway, I cannot find any connection between Hubbards and the Priors or names you list at 14 Brunswick Place in 1911. But then I tried to find the reference to 14 Brunswick Place in the 1911 service papers, and I cannot for the life of me find it – can you direct me to the correct page please?

 

Going on from my previous post in Dec 1911 Uncle Arthur Frederick Hubbard (Drover) is “Destitute” is in Mile End Workhouse, Stepney ……

from whence he was transferred in Jan 1912 to Claybury Asylum (Woodford Bridge) which is where he died on 29 Apr 1913.

So our William could not have returned to his Uncle Arthur after military discharge in Nov. 1912. What happened to Uncle Arthur’s wife and sons?

 

Looking at the 1911 military service papers again, I see that the name of William’s next of kin and their address is NOT written in William’s hand. Could it be that the next of kin given was his cousin Arthur (also a Carman, & possibly working with William). Whoever wrote the name Arthur had assumed that it was the father? Would the address of 12 Beauchamp St be correct for cousin Arthur if it was a Boys Home (as Tew suggests in post 107). He was 17 years in 1911, and perhaps he (and younger brother Edward) were in a boys home for a while as father Arthur in the asylum could not provide for them. 

 

Then I looked at William’s sister, Matilda Alice who married James Henry Gadd in Aug 1905 (St George East), because the original post says that she looked after William.

At their marriage they are both living in “Sheridan St” or could be Shendon St” St George East. 

In 1906 they were living at what I read as “5 Exmouth St”. 

In 1911 – a peculiar thing is that Matilda and James Gadd are registered twice in the 1911 census ; they are at 9 Masons Flats at Watney St, and also 74 George Row Bermondsey. What a bizarre family!

In 1912 they are at 120 Clark St Stepney.

By 1916 when James Gadd (who was lighterman on the barges) attests for the RFA, they are living separately and James has a child born to a Mrs. Carney.

Yes it is possible William was with his sister Matilda but I don’t think any addresses confirm this. 

 

Are we making any progress? Not really?

Edited by Neale1961
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5 hours ago, Neale1961 said:

Brockway, I cannot find any connection between Hubbards and the Priors or names you list at 14 Brunswick Place in 1911. But then I tried to find the reference to 14 Brunswick Place in the 1911 service papers, and I cannot for the life of me find it – can you direct me to the correct page please?

 

 

Neale,

14 Brunswick was first spotted by Sue back in Post #91 from 31 Jan

 

Quote

On FindmyPast in the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913 are the Attestation Papers for William George Hubbard

<snip>

 ... by 15th November 1912 was discharged as medically unfit for further service (Para 393 (xvl) KT) "Neurasthenia."  Court of Inquiry held at Blackdown 12 April 1912. "Not on duty".

 

His intended place of residence on discharge was 14 Brunswick Place, Stepney, London.  His conduct and character were good but he didn't get any qualifications and was not entitled to any medals or a pension. His discharge date was 15th November 1912, and he signed the discharge documents.  

<snip>

 ... on his attestation papers to the Yorkshire Regiment he gives his father's name as Arthur Hubbard with an address in Holborn.  His own father Robert Samuel Hubbard had died in 1901 so I wonder if he was living with a relative.  His real father's name comes later in the papers.

 

Hubbard's discharge papers are also in the main Service Records section on Ancestry, but the image is so faint, it is extremely hard to make out the "14 Brunswick Place, Stepney" entry.

1646616567_STEPNEYBrunswickPlaceinSR-Copy.jpg.ce35c799745de1896e7e0b2b5710b834.jpg

478344226_STEPNEYBrunswickPlaceinSR-inverted-Copy.jpg.b6964535eb3a8407ae5c609ffa8a597a.jpg

 

Here's that page on Ancestry (subscription required)

 

I assume the FindMyPast version is much better quality or else Sue would not have been so confident in the address.  I have no access to FMP to check this though.

 

It is also possible to reach the Chelsea Pensioners records via Ancestry, but they are held by Ancestry's Fold3 subsidiary for which an additional subscription is required - go figure why ...  $$$$s! :angry:

 

I do not have access to Fold3.  These versions of Hubbard's records may also be clearer.

 

 

I did some digging on the PRIORs/PRYERs.  There are some geographical connections - they seem to track the Hubbard/Abbott movements to a degree - but so far I've found no firm family relationship.  I'll not clutter the topic with their info unless I do turn up something useful.

 

As you say, progress is not astonishing so far!  :huh:

 

Mark

 

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Hope this works - this is the page from FmP showing his intended place of residence on discharge as 14 Brunswick Place, Stepney.

 

Neale asks if we are making progress - maybe not so much just now, but I think we've found out an awful lot about this family.  And personally I've learnt so much about Stepney and that area of London.  Have just been reading about Dr Barnado starting off his homes in that area - life was really tough there back in the 19th century.  

 

I'm still intrigued by this entry that Neale found and wonder if we can take it any further:

 

BROMLEY WORKHOUSE, STEPNEY, TOWER HAMLETS

Admission 10 June 1910

Discharge 17 June 1910

WILLIAM HUBBARD 

Calling – CARMAN

Religion – C of E

When born -1887

Parish from which admitted - Ratcliff 

Observations – “Lunatic”

 

 

GBM_WO97_5172_099_005.jpg.pdf

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