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An Intrguiging Mystery of Indentity due to Amnesia

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Susan Tall

You could also add

42 Leather Lane

which is the address of the Mr Hornblower, grocer, who gave him a reference.

 

Also  Arther Hubbard's address is given as

12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road

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Susan Tall

MadMeg,

When I search on Ancestry under British Army WW1 Service Records with a search of William George Hubbard b. 1893 Middlesex I come up with his papers which have 14 pages.  Are these the same ones you are looking at?

 

Page 1  His attestation into the Middlesex Regt, 1st May 1911, 18 years 4 months, occupation Grocer's assistant. 

Page 4  gives father's name as Arther Hubbard, 12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road.

Page 7  Attestation form to the Yorkshire Regt. 18 years 7 months, occupation Town Carman

Page 12 Mr Hornblower's statement. 

Page 13 Details of service with Yorkshire Regiment from 4/9/1911 to discharge 15/11/1912 as medically unfit for further service "Neurasthenia"

Page 14 Very damaged page at top - various questions. Q9 Concussion of brain "Serious", Court of Inquiry held at Blackdown 12/4/1912 Not on       duty.  Q10 Name and address of next of kin Father Robert Hubbard 40 Anthony St, Stepney.

 

I've just found on FindmyPast the same set of papers still very damaged but more readable. On Page 14 (as above) his address on discharge is given as 14 Brunswick Place, Stepney.

 

Also on FindmyPast there is a duplicate of his Attestation to the Yorkshire Regiment (in red print) which I'd found previously.

These two sets of papers are under British Army Service Records.

 

 

 

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Neale1961
MBrockway

Neale - be aware that your Ancestry Australia links don't work for UK-based Ancestry users :(

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Susan Tall

I came up with this suggestion in post 94.  See AuntyTory reply in post 95. Uncle Arthur had two sons Arthur (1893) and Edward (1897). 

It would seem reasonable that an uncle took him in after his parents died, although his daughter said he lived with his sister before eventually joining the Army.

William George himself had a son named Arthur which does strengthen the link with Uncle Arthur.  I suppose Uncle Arthur could have moved to 12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road, after the 1911 census.

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MBrockway
1 hour ago, Susan Tall said:

You could also add

42 Leather Lane

which is the address of the Mr Hornblower, grocer, who gave him a reference.

 

Also  Arther Hubbard's address is given as

12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road

 

Leather Lane was renumbered c.1900.  For when do you require 42 Leather Lane locating?

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Susan Tall

1911 please for Leather Lane.   This was when Mr Hornblower gave his statement.  

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TEW

Leather lane & Beachamp st can be found via Google maps. They are about quarter of a mile west of Farringdon stn. They were somehow connected earlier as some sources give 'Beachamp st, Leather Lane'. 

Brunswick Pl. Is about half mile N of Finsbury Sq. N side of Old St. E side of City Rd. By junction with East Rd. Running S-N; Cranwood St, Brunswick Pl, Corsham St, Styman & Chart St. 

Can't access Fold3 till Monday, if it is him that'll clinch the WW1 connection. I have searched by name previously and not seen a contender.

TEW

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Susan Tall

Thanks Tew for the information on those addresses:

 

I can't open the Fold3 either except for the Pension Records that the WFA have put on there. I've searched these and not found him, but then it doesn't seem as if he had a pension.  This Fold3 entry on Ancestry is for the UK Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records 1760-1920 and the preview gives

 

William George Hubbard

Enlistment age 18

birthplace Stepheny Middlesex

Enlistment year 1911

Yorkshire Regiment

Reg. No: 981  (should be 9817)

Attestation paper Yes

 

I suspect it is his attestation paper when he transferred from the Middlesex Regt to the Yorkshire Regiment, which is already on Ancestry and FindmyPast in the Service Records, but would really like to see just what it is. If it is filed amongst the Chelsea Pensioner records, would that mean that he did get a pension after all?

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ss002d6252
22 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

Thanks Tew for the information on those addresses:

 

I can't open the Fold3 either except for the Pension Records that the WFA have put on there. I've searched these and not found him, but then it doesn't seem as if he had a pension.  This Fold3 entry on Ancestry is for the UK Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records 1760-1920 and the preview gives 

 

William George Hubbard

Enlistment age 18

birthplace Stepheny Middlesex

Enlistment year 1911

Yorkshire Regiment

Reg. No: 981  (should be 9817)

Attestation paper Yes

 

I suspect it is his attestation paper when he transferred from the Middlesex Regt to the Yorkshire Regiment, which is already on Ancestry and FindmyPast in the Service Records, but would really like to see just what it is. If it is filed amongst the Chelsea Pensioner records, would that mean that he did get a pension after all?

The record for #9817 Hubbard are his enlistment and discharge papers, the same as on FmP.


As a regular soldier on a medical discharge he should have been eligible for a Chelsea pension, his papers were sent there for consideration at the very least.
 

Craig

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Susan Tall

Thanks Craig, I guessed they were the same enlistment and discharge papers as on FmP.  Would like to think he got some sort of pension.

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MBrockway
On 09/02/2019 at 12:22, Susan Tall said:

You could also add

42 Leather Lane

which is the address of the Mr Hornblower, grocer, who gave him a reference.

 

Also  Arther Hubbard's address is given as

12 Beauchamp St, Gray's Inn Road

 

Here you go Susan ...

 

This base map is c.1896, but not all the individual shops/properties are outlined.  Key landmark pubs are in RED.

46296360_HOLBORN-LeatherLanemap1896wider-WKG.png.0f68280fa5ae18e8642be4bbd3d32c42.png

 

A. King of Prussia (renamed The King in 1915 ... I wonder why :P) - 50 Leather Lane.   [closed 1958]

B. White Lion - 48 Leather Lane.                                                                                       [closed 1911 & now demolished]

C. King's Head - 26 Leather Lane.                                                                                     [closed 1937 & now demolished]

D. Pewter Platter - 40 Charles Street.                                                                                 [closed 1937]

E. William IV - 10 Beauchamp Street.                                                                                 [closed 1937 & now demolished]

F. George aka George & Dragon - 29 Leather Lane.                                                         [closed 1937]

G. White Hart - 73 Leather Lane.                                                                                        [closed 1899]

 

12 Beauchamp Street is exactly as marked above and I am 100% certain of the location.  In the trade directories in 1882 there's a chandler's shop there, while in 1915 it is a gas fittings manufacturers.  That does not rule out other parts of the property being used as a residence of course.  This area is now underneath the rear of the old Prudential's head office complex now known as Holborn Bars

 

42 Leather Lane is much harder to pinpoint.

 

It lies on the east side in the block between Charles Street and St Cross Street.  We can further narrow this down as the King's Head [C] is 26 Leather Lane and the White Lion [ B ] is 48 Leather Lane.

 

The Refineries & Assay Offices shown are the gold works of Johnson Matthey & Co Ltd., whose main frontage was to the east onto Hatton Garden.  I suspect the map has simplified the properties here and the gold works did not front onto Leather Lane, except via archway entries.  Other period maps show this section of the east side of Leather Lane divided up into lots (they were less clear, which is why I used the above map).  Unfortunately there are 13 lots shown and only 7 street numbers in play - so there must be some doubling up. The 1882 directory has businesses at 28, 30, 32, 34 and 36 Leather Lane, then Johnson Matthey (unnumbered), then the White Lion at No 48.

 

The 1910 trade directory gives Johnson Matthey at 44 & 46 Leather Lane.  That means 42 Leather Lane must be south of and adjacent to those two properties, which must in turn be adjacent to the White Lion at No 48.

 

The green oval I have marked for 42 Leather Lane is as accurate as I can place it at the moment.  Apologies.

 

I'll look at this further with a fresh head tomorrow and post again if I can pinpoint it better.

 

At 42 Leather Lane, the trade directories have a Mrs Margaret Herbert trading as a confectioner in 1910 and 1915 and unlisted in 1882.  No luck with Hornblower in the directories, but a search based on the OCR is unreliable.

 

[Edit]

Since originally writing this post, it now emerges that the Leather Lane address might also be 45 Leather Lane - see Post #169 below for the evidence for this.

 

Accordingly I have marked No 45 on the map as well.

 

In the trade directories this address has the following:

1882 - James Howell, Toy Warehouse

1910 - A.C. Taylor Ltd., Corn Merchants

1915 - A.C. Taylor Ltd., Corn Merchants

 

I have also managed to find a 1906 photo in the LMA that shows Nos 49 (butchers), 47 (fishmongers) and the edge of No 45 Leather Lane.  Little more than a third is visible of No 45, but the building will be virtually identical to those shown.

1952929259_HOLBORN-LeatherLane45-491905LMAA.jpg.8eabd7454ba503463b7f3117313cd582.jpg

[Source: London Metropolitan Archive,  © City of London Corporation]

 

A close up ...

1666645363_HOLBORN-LeatherLane45-491905LMAB.jpg.4071087c1b62369b6d0851c2711067de.jpg

[Source: London Metropolitan Archive,  © City of London Corporation]

 

The partly glimpsed sign on No 45 reads: "Spratt's Patent Dog Cakes Puppy Biscuits".  Spratt's were the original manufacturers of 'Bonio' dog biscuits.

 

Consistent certainly with a grocers and possibly a corn merchants.

 

Lots of examples of similar Spratt's signage are easily found via Google.

[Edit ends]

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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TEW

Susan, does sound like the Fold3 entry points to the WO97 record you found previously. I assumed a WWI pension card had been identified as a contender.

Sheet 6 (marked 1095) from the WO363 set does say pension rejected. This is the 1912 concussion event.

Does anyone recall which document had the reference to 3rd Rifle Brigade circa 1918, can we see this?

Does anyone know if being discharged 'unfit for further service' in 1912 would have a bearing on conscription.

TEW

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MBrockway
11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Does anyone recall which document had the reference to 3rd Rifle Brigade circa 1918, can we see this?

TEW

 

On 14/01/2019 at 18:38, Aunty Tory said:

Our man says he was an ex-rifleman in the 3rd Rifle Brigade, (he listed this as his occupation on his daughters birth certificate), so I'm wondering if/ how this fits with the marine references.

 

On 14/01/2019 at 18:47, MBrockway said:

 

Could we have a scan of this document please?

 

Failing that, could you transcribe it exactly?  We'll need the date and location of the document too please.

 

Andy and I are both watching this topic, but there's too much uncertainty on the Rifle Brigade elements for us to get involved as yet.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

On 15/01/2019 at 08:50, Aunty Tory said:

Hi Mark, I don't have it, I'm going on the account from his daughters letter, but I will order a copy now, thank you.

 

 

 

:thumbsup:

Edited by MBrockway

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ss002d6252
Quote

Does anyone know if being discharged 'unfit for further service' in 1912 would have a bearing on conscription.

Under MSA part 1 then para 5 of the scheduke exempted men who had been previously discharged from service (there appears to have been no time-limit on when that occurred). Under Part 2 of the MSA 1916 previously discharged men were no longer exempt from service so this is when you see men being medically examined and then a decision made as to whether or not they were to be regarded as exempt from service.

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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Susan Tall

So he could have been medically examined in 1916 and found to be fit enough for service.  When he married in February 1918 (as Harry Abbott)

he gave his occupation as soldier, but no regiment.

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ss002d6252
7 minutes ago, Susan Tall said:

So he could have been medically examined in 1916 and found to be fit enough for service.  When he married in February 1918 (as Harry Abbott)

he gave his occupation as soldier, but no regiment.

Yes. It appears that there was nothing in the MSA 1916 (part 2) which would have prevented him being medically examined for service.

 

Other exemptions in the MSA 1916 (part 1) specified periods of time in respect of exemptions from service (i.e attempted to enlist during the war and was rejected) whereas the clause regarding having been discharged previously from the army had no specified dates. These exemptions were removed under the MSA 1916 (part 2)


Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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Susan Tall

Mark

Thanks for that very clear map showing Leather Lane and Beauchamp St.  They are so close together that it seems feasible for WGH to have lived in Beauchamp Street with his next of kin/father Arthur Hubbard and worked for Mr Hornblower in Leather Lane.

 

Can anyone with better eyesight than mine have a look at Mr Hornblower's statement.  I'm trying to work out his signature in an effort to try and track him down.  

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MBrockway
4 hours ago, Susan Tall said:

Mark

Thanks for that very clear map showing Leather Lane and Beauchamp St.  They are so close together that it seems feasible for WGH to have lived in Beauchamp Street with his next of kin/father Arthur Hubbard and worked for Mr Hornblower in Leather Lane.

 

Can anyone with better eyesight than mine have a look at Mr Hornblower's statement.  I'm trying to work out his signature in an effort to try and track him down.  

 

Already on it Susan as I have spotted a discrepancy in the address - it could also be 45 Leather Lane :D

 

The address at the top of the reference page looks more like 45 Leather Lane to me.  Here it is zoomed in and in negative ....

1057519741_HOLBORN-LeatherLaneHornbloweraddressA1.jpg.012a7c31b4ba214d83a6870f45991437.jpg

1047214641_HOLBORN-LeatherLaneHornbloweraddressA2.jpg.df24a5a14bf381cee130fa6a393225c0.jpg

 

... but at the foot of the reference page where he has signed, the address looks like 42 Leather Lane.

1086240226_HOLBORN-LeatherLaneHornbloweraddressB2.jpg.c0a01feb9f5a097e80f14190cd1f896b.jpg

2091797472_HOLBORN-LeatherLaneHornbloweraddressB3.jpg.ce2ad6589e533a5d832eb467f3b61c43.jpg

 

 

I'm just expanding the map above to include No 45.  I even have a partial photograph of that address!  It is on the west side a little further away from Beauchamp Street, but very much in easy reach.

 

I should be posting in 1-2 hours, other commitments permitting.

[Edit: I have now replaced the original map in the post higher up with one showing 45 Leather Lane as well.  I have also added a 1906 photograph that shows the right hand third of 45 Leather Lane]

 

Mark

Edited by MBrockway

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TEW

Craig, using phone at present so diificult to search for but given his year of birth at (I think) 1893? and as a single man when would he have been enlisted?

I did make a start looking at baptisms for Hornblower in Holborn area circa 1911 where father was a grocer. Not an easy search! Only to see if reference is bona fide. Would help if his Initial was legible.

TEW

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Susan Tall

And I'm going through the 1911 census for Hornblowers to see if I can match the signature - no luck yet, but it is quite distinctive writing.

 

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ss002d6252
1 hour ago, TEW said:

Craig, using phone at present so diificult to search for but given his year of birth at (I think) 1893? and as a single man when would he have been enlisted?

I did make a start looking at baptisms for Hornblower in Holborn area circa 1911 where father was a grocer. Not an easy search! Only to see if reference is bona fide. Would help if his Initial was legible.

TEW

Not 100% on for the Classes it but the applicable Group men had been called up late Jan/early Feb 16. As the MSA 1916 (part 2) came in to force in May 1916 I'd expect that there was sweep up of men as soon as possible after that to catch those who fell under part 2.

 

Craig

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Aunty Tory

So, I have the birth certificate of my aunt which states William Abbott/ Hubbards regiment - attached.

fmm birth.pdf

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Susan Tall

Thanks Aunty Tory, that's a great help.

 

Wondering if this is him:  Medal Card Index William Abbott 5284, 3rd Bn Royal Rifle Brigade

 

On FindmyPast there is a Silver War Badge record for:

 

W.Abbott 5284

Rifleman 

Badge No 297920

enlisted 27 Nov 1913

discharged 19 Dec 1917

3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade

Wounds Army Order 11 para 1a 14/8/1917

Served overseas: Yes

Age 24

Dated 2 Jan 1918

 

Can't find a Silver War Badge for him under these details.

Can't see any Service Records or Pension Records but may have missed them.

 

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alf mcm

Fold 3 has a pension ledger index card for William Abbott, 5284.  https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/644728937?terms=WILLIAM ABBOTT 5284    He is living in 48 Churchill Road, Bristol, and is single. He was discharged on 19/12/1917, prior to marrying in 1918. Date of birth is given as 1893.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Edited by alf mcm
added date of discharge. date of birth added

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