ss002d6252 Posted 24 December , 2016 Share Posted 24 December , 2016 33 minutes ago, museumtom said: Good man Craig. There is a photo of him in the newspaper that says his wife would appreciate news of him. It also says that he fought at Mons and at the Dardanelles. Does that help at all? Kind regards. Tom. I think you can rule out Mons - he didn't land in France until 3 May 1915 according to his medal roll entry and it appears his service number wasn't allocated late Oct / early Nov 1914. You can probably rule out the Dardanelles as well - The medal roll shows only service with 2nd Bn overseas (the rolls do seem to show where men were moved between battalions). 2nd Bn served only in France. Not sure that inspires much trust in the mention of a wife from the newspaper report. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 24 December , 2016 Share Posted 24 December , 2016 Dublin Daily Express - Monday 25 October 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 24 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2016 Thank you kindly lads, curiouser and curiouser indeed! Kindest regards. Tom/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Museumtom- As I am local to Walthamstow, I have checked available online records- Have the usual stuff, if wanted. Not a trace of a wife though. May have to go to Vestry House (Walthamstow local archives- 10 minutes away-But appointment only)- in the next week, so happy to look anything up that might assist. Do you have a date for the newspaper article that suggests he was married??? Walthamstow has a Roll of Honour so that would be a start. Its very unusual indeed for Soldiers Effects to miss out on a wife-the more so as his War Gratuity is split between a clutch of siblings. It might suggest that the wife too was dead by the time the War Gratuity was paid up in 1919 -and without children. (Craig will shout out if that was possible) The intrigue deepens as he seems to have gone straight into an Irish regiment, although his place of enlistment is given as Walthamstow. This suggests to me the following- that he volunteered early on in the local battalion in Walthamstow (7th Essex). This was overstrength at the end of 1914 and in some chaos as the War Office had messed up the Imperial Service Obligation- as the official history says, the 4 usual service battalions were over,while the Regular battalions were understrength. I suspect that there was permission for EITHER some recruiting into Irish regiments -probably around the turn of 1914-1915-a couple of months each way. OR that a batch of London recruits were directed to RDF. I note that WGC has a splattering of casualties to RDF either side of his service number with London family details.(And a Wanstead casualty of 1915- William Lakeman,aged 17, London Irish) suggests that London Irish were prepared to look the other way on underage recruits right from the start,as recruiting was already perceived to be problematic) Would you know if there was any RDF recruiting allowed directly in London?? There was certainly recruiting for the Highland regiments allowed in 1914- a couple of officers were allowed to recruit for the Highland Division, then based at Bedford. Could the same have been allowed to RDF???? The problem of Irish regiments and recruiting is a perplexing one during the war- Without knocking "Irishness" (see elsewhere for that!!), just how "Irish" were the Irish regiments, especially in the hard year of 1918-it looks like draft,after draft after draft of English conscripts to bring Irish battalions up to strength. I have a local casualty here for a Roll for Wanstead- one Herbert James Bentley, KIA 21 March 1918- with 2 RDF. No Irish connections at all, wounded twice previously and pretty sure just drafted when in France- if he ever went to Ireland,then it was just for recuperation at depot-but there is no evidence for this. But he is on "Ireland's Roll" for having been in RDF when killed. Here,I think "Irishness" does come into play. Does a Sergeant-Major's order or an Adjutant's listing, combined with a new cap badge suddenly make him more or less Irish, or more or less English. Nationalism attaches a lot to trinkets and symbols. In terms of nationality-or perceived nationality-it matters not a jot- BUT the problem of replenishment facing decimated Irish battalions post Easter Rising is one that should receive more attention Let me know if look-up wanted,or any further details that might aid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Hello GUEST. Lots of interesting stuff in there to consider, thank you kindly for your observations and suggestions and offer for lookups, it is very much appreciated. I never make assumptions and any 'ideas' I have the pals on this page set me straight. I have no idea if the RDF specifically recruited in the UK to be honest. Ireland's Memorial Records accepted everyone in an Irish regiment as being an Irishman and added him to their list, while ignoring other forces for Irish born casualties. For the purpose of my project the criteria for inclusion is;- Born in the 26 counties. Lived in 26 counties. Next of kin lived in or from the 26 counties. Buried in the 26 counties. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Museumtom- As I am local to Walthamstow, I have checked available online records- Have the usual stuff, if wanted. Not a trace of a wife though. May have to go to Vestry House (Walthamstow local archives- 10 minutes away-But appointment only)- in the next week, so happy to look anything up that might assist. Do you have a date for the newspaper article that suggests he was married??? Walthamstow has a Roll of Honour so that would be a start. Its very unusual indeed for Soldiers Effects to miss out on a wife-the more so as his War Gratuity is split between a clutch of siblings. It might suggest that the wife too was dead by the time the War Gratuity was paid up in 1919 -and without children. (Craig will shout out if that was possible) The intrigue deepens as he seems to have gone straight into an Irish regiment, although his place of enlistment is given as Walthamstow. This suggests to me the following- that he volunteered early on in the local battalion in Walthamstow (7th Essex). This was overstrength at the end of 1914 and in some chaos as the War Office had messed up the Imperial Service Obligation- as the official history says, the 4 usual service battalions were over,while the Regular battalions were understrength. I suspect that there was permission for EITHER some recruiting into Irish regiments -probably around the turn of 1914-1915-a couple of months each way. OR that a batch of London recruits were directed to RDF. I note that WGC has a splattering of casualties to RDF either side of his service number with London family details.(And a Wanstead casualty of 1915- William Lakeman,aged 17, London Irish) suggests that London Irish were prepared to look the other way on underage recruits right from the start,as recruiting was already perceived to be problematic) Would you know if there was any RDF recruiting allowed directly in London?? There was certainly recruiting for the Highland regiments allowed in 1914- a couple of officers were allowed to recruit for the Highland Division, then based at Bedford. Could the same have been allowed to RDF???? The problem of Irish regiments and recruiting is a perplexing one during the war- Without knocking "Irishness" (see elsewhere for that!!), just how "Irish" were the Irish regiments, especially in the hard year of 1918-it looks like draft,after draft after draft of English conscripts to bring Irish battalions up to strength. I have a local casualty here for a Roll for Wanstead- one Herbert James Bentley, KIA 21 March 1918- with 2 RDF. No Irish connections at all, wounded twice previously and pretty sure just drafted when in France- if he ever went to Ireland,then it was just for recuperation at depot-but there is no evidence for this. But he is on "Ireland's Roll" for having been in RDF when killed. Here,I think "Irishness" does come into play. Does a Sergeant-Major's order or an Adjutant's listing, combined with a new cap badge suddenly make him more or less Irish, or more or less English. Nationalism attaches a lot to trinkets and symbols. In terms of nationality-or perceived nationality-it matters not a jot- BUT the problem of replenishment facing decimated Irish battalions post Easter Rising is one that should receive more attention Let me know if look-up wanted,or any further details that might aid If the wife was dead and there was no will then the estate would be shared out amongst relatives based on the standard rules of inheritance. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Good observation Craig! Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 (edited) This lad is frying my brain lads and lassies. It says in FMP his death year is 1917 but he was discharged in 1919? In the newspaper it says his wife lived in Dublin and he was killed on March 31, 1917, number 32006. Can you shed any light please. He is not in SDGW or CWGC. Below from FMP. First name(s) Charles Last name Whelan Residence Dublin,Co.Dublin Residence county Dublin Residence country Ireland Enlistment year 1911 Enlistment date 13/11/1911 Service number 32006 Rank Private Battalion 25th Transfer to/from From Army Service Corps; To 12th Bn & N.F.Depot Discharge year 1919 Discharge date 24/3/19 Cause of discharge KR Para 392(xvi) Death year 1917 Death date JULY 17? Notes A.S.C. No.T/30855; Silver War Badge No.475512 Source SGG;SWB;MR Record set British Army, Northumberland Fusiliers 1881-1920 Category Military, armed forces & conflict Subcategory Regimental & service records Collections from Great Britain Thank you most kindly in advance for any help you can give. Kind regards. Tom. Edited 27 December , 2016 by museumtom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 (edited) Tom He is in the Soldiers Effects but it is struck out and says 'Man alive and a prisoner of war'. The recipient was to be widow Olive http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60506/42511_6117462_0097-00177?pid=336874&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DoZd23%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dukarmyregisterseffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3Dcharles%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dwhelan%26gsln_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26uidh%3Da63%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D1%26h%3D336874%26recoff%3D3%204%26ml_rpos%3D2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=oZd23&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true Hywyn PM me your email if you haven't got access to link. Edited 27 December , 2016 by Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, museumtom said: This lad is frying my brain lads and lassies. It says in FMP his death year is 1917 but he was discharged in 1919? In the newspaper it says his wife lived in Dublin and he was killed on March 31, 1917, number 32006. Can you shed any light please. He is not in SDGW or CWGC. Below from FMP. First name(s) Charles Last name Whelan Residence Dublin,Co.Dublin Residence county Dublin Residence country Ireland Enlistment year 1911 Enlistment date 13/11/1911 Service number 32006 Rank Private Battalion 25th Transfer to/from From Army Service Corps; To 12th Bn & N.F.Depot Discharge year 1919 Discharge date 24/3/19 Cause of discharge KR Para 392(xvi) Death year 1917 Death date JULY 17? Notes A.S.C. No.T/30855; Silver War Badge No.475512 Source SGG;SWB;MR Record set British Army, Northumberland Fusiliers 1881-1920 Category Military, armed forces & conflict Subcategory Regimental & service records Collections from Great Britain Thank you most kindly in advance for any help you can give. Kind regards. Tom. Based on the records they found out he was a PoW somewhere between 27 June 17 (when his monies were due to be settled) and 25 July 17 when the entry to pay the monies was cancelled and paid back to the Regimental Paymaster. Craig Edited 27 December , 2016 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Whelan's Red Cross records - http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5778615/3/2/ Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 A brilliant bit of sleuthing lads and lassies. Thank ye kindly, so he did not die, was assumed to have been killed and was, in fact, a POW! Y'know I'd say he had a great tale to tell. Thanks lads and lassies, you help is, as always, very much appreciated indeed. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 One more if I may guys and gals. I have this from the Dublin newspaper. Private W Doyle, (20811), Scottish Rifles. Killed March 28, 1918. Two brothers serving. Parents reside in Glasgow. Now the only lad who fits this is this lad, perhaps he is his alias? The re is nothing in FMP that helps, can you shed any light on him please? http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/574538/ Kind regards, and thank you for trying. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Effects = mother Mary Doyle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Thank you Simon, that nails it, Moran was an alias. A brilliant find. Thanks a million. Cheers. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Moran's date of death is given on the Graves Registration form as 28/03/1917 Tom, not 1918. All the deaths are 1917 also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Thanks Dai, a typo on the form? Cheers. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 1 hour ago, museumtom said: Thanks Dai, a typo on the form? Cheers. Tom. Well, I see the CWGC entry is also 1917, as is the entry in the headstone schedules, not just for him, but all other soldiers on the schedule. What is the date of the newspaper article about Doyle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 17th April 1917 Dai. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 December , 2016 Share Posted 27 December , 2016 You wrote 1918 in post #538 Tom, that's why I queried 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 27 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2016 Well spotted Dai, sorry about that, it is a typo. Sorry for sending you in the wrong direction, it was not intentional. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 28 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2016 May I please ask for the effects info and any NOK for this soldier. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/775638/WALKER, FRED He is not in FMP, I have SDGW and CWGC. Any help you can give will be bvry much appreciated. Thanking you most kindly in advance. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 28 December , 2016 Share Posted 28 December , 2016 Name:Fred Walter Gender:Male Death Date:14 Apr 1917 Rank:Private Regiment:Scot Rgts Regimental Number:201281 Mother Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 28 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2016 Brilliant, Simon, that helps immensely. Now I am on the right road. Thanks again. Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 28 December , 2016 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2016 Another mystery man if I may please. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1647908/KEARY, FRANK Is there a name on the effects sheet please? Thank for looking . Kind regards. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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