Guild of Battlefield Guides

[salientguide]

I wonder if guests (customers, clients, passengers - whatever is the most PC) really have any interest at all as to whether or not their guide is a member of the Guild? I have made a quick count of 12 battlefield guides I have been on tours with since 2008 - I am not aware that any of them belonged to the Guild .... or maybe it just wasn't mentioned. Does anyone who goes on a battlefield tour actually seek out this information? Does it really matter?

Judy

Well yes Judy it does. In the modern atmosphere of customer satisfaction most legislation and need to be part of a registered body it is about people being what they describe themselves to be and offering a service at the stated level. At the moment anyone, of whatever limited background , experience, knowledge etc can describe themselves as a battlefield guide, a military guide, a military researcher, any title they think of with absolutely no need to back that up with any demonstration of competence. Anyone can produce a fancy good looking website offering tours, personal research any activity connected with military history. Given that commercial prices now seem to be running into the £300-500 mark for trips of several days to a week I am surprised one is happy to pay out that sort of money without being assured beforehand that one will receive good value, correct information delivery of required sites and unit history etc. It is to the credit of most working in the industry, which commercially is what it is, that there is so much general customer satisfaction, but there are tales of occasional disappointment out there. SG

[centurion]

Stick to badgers. But not with sticky budgies. The old sweats of the Great War would know what to do for these TB-raddled and rabid mustelids - they would hold a Brock's Benefit.

Dropping 9.2 inch rounds on the set followed by a barrage from a few hundred Vickers Mg is likely to create adverse comment in the countryside.

[Sly]

Does anyone who goes on a battlefield tour actually seek out this information? Does it really matter?

From a customer point of view, if someone is looking for a battlefield tour, does it really matter ? Customers look at and trust much more things like"Trip Advisor " or other similar websites.

Nowadays everybody can do a website with nice photos, "customers testimonials" (it helps if you have a lots of friends) and claim to be an expert by putting a logo of any association: the "APREO" (the Association of People who are Recognised to be Expert by their Association), the "AMOM" (the Association whom expert Members are anyway the Only expert Members), the "AGLFRFC" (the Association of Guides who have the Left Foot in the UK and the Right Foot on the Continent - it's raining on the Channel)...

I am thinking of putting on my website a new logo: the "APMA" (the Association of People who are not Member of any Association).

Sorry Guys, I don't want to offend anyone it's just (bad) humour on a Friday night after a couple of Pastis.

Sly

[centurion]

To be honest recommendations from satisfied customers that one can identify and trust are worth far more than any 'accreditation' from any body one does not know no matter how grave or grand sounding the title (indeed the graver and grander the title the less confidence one might have).

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I am thinking of putting on my website a new logo: the "APMA" (the Association of People who are not Member of any Association). ...

Have you posted an application form on the www yet ?

What's the annual fee going to be ?

Will there be different coloured badges depending how many associations a member is not a member of ?

......................................

Tom

[Sly]

Hi Tom,

To get your badge please send me a PM* with your credit card number, your PIN number and the validation date and your annual fee will be notified in time.

* Please hurry up, I will be on holidays soon to the Bahamas islands

$ly

[Chris_Baker]

Then let us turn this discussion around. I guess my questions are aimed both at those members here who already make a living as battlefield guides; those who might consider doing so one day; and even those who would be paying customers of such guides. I do not narrow my questions to apply only to UK-based guides.

Do you consider some form of quality accreditation of battlefield guides to be valuable?

What would the guide need to achieve/demonstrate in order to be accredited?

What form of organisation should issue accreditation?

[keithmroberts]

Surely a guide needs to be strong in two distinct areas.

1 Guiding itself. This requires good communication skills, an ability to handle difficult situations (not all paying customers will be wonderful), some awareness regarding disabilities, and perhaps some proficiency regarding first aid. Insurance is presumably an issue when providing a service for money. An ability to explain relevant background material beyond providing safe conduct and a narrative should presumably be a general requirement.

2 Great War knowledge matters where we are concerned - especially when such as forum members join a guided operation, they will probably have some knowledge, and their interests are likely to run beyond a prepared script. if a guide can't answer, or find some useful response to informed questions, then I would not be too happy. This would seriously influence my choice of a tour.

A qualification in guiding, can't really cover the knowledge area properly any more than can a degree in History, or even a Birmingham Great War MA. An expert guide, with considerable knowledge say of the British parts of the Western Front might prove a considerable irritant if say that guide then led a tour of Gallipoli or the Italian front.

The only guided tours that I have done have been in Macedonia and Gallipoli, and my choice was based on the reputation of the tour leaders as individuals who had researched and published work on those areas, and on having heard them deliver talks relating to those campaigns. I did not ask whether either leader has qualified as a guide, because I felt sure that I would learn from them, and that they were thoroughly knowledgeable.

If I really cared about accreditation, any organisation that claimed to manage such, would for me have to show that its accreditation insured familiarity and compliance with the legal requirements of any country in which the guide was to operate. There would also need to be a well publicised complaints procedure so that a guide could if needs be have accreditation withdrawn.

If I regarded such accreditation as a requirement, which I don't, I would not regard it as evidence of knowledge relevant to a specific tour.

Keith

[centurion]

The most expert guide in whatever the subject would be worse than useless if they:

• were unskilled at communicating this to all sorts of levels of understanding without either talking down to people, over their heads or teaching them to suck eggs -a difficult balance to achieve in a mixed group
  
• could not get on with a mixed set of people - the cranks, the fussy, the precious, the cantankerous, the smart alec etc etc (there's always at least one) and keep the group a group
  
• did not have the flexibility to deal with the unexpected - the coach breaks down, the museum, cemetery, café etc is unexpectedly closed, there is an outbreak of the lurgi in the group or worse
  

All very difficult to produce a credible paper qualification in. I have never had to guide a group and I'm not sure that I would be much good at it - I certainly wouldn't enjoy it - but I used to have to run one week residential courses all over the world in a certain systems design and implementation technique. Now I would claim that I was expert in this technique (I wrote it in the first place) but there were two people who were better at running the course than I was and it was always a relief if one of them was running it with me. They were better because they were damn good at the above skills.

[Tom Morgan]

Another form of accreditation is that of employer satisfaction, though I admit it might seem a bit old-fashioned these days. I work as a self-employed battlefield guide, but I don't organise any tours of my own. I'm employed to guide tours by specialist companies in the UK and abroad. They have all the expertise needed to organise sales, bookings, travel, and accommodation. They have put together (in my view) excellent products and they insist on high standards from their service-providers - one of whom is myself.

They get feedback from passengers and group leaders which by-passes me as I'm not involved in that reporting process. Obviously, they are going to want to know how well the guide performed in a wide variety of areas. The school company I work for is very interested in feedback because unlike some tour providers, they have customers who will buy tours year after year, and listen to what they say. The groups I guide are usually led by very well-informed people who have clear expectations and know whether a guide is doing well or not. They also have long experience of travelling with groups and have the experience of having worked with quite a few guides, so they can make comparisons.

Sometimes, passengers are themselves at least as knowledgeable as the guides. (This one, anyway). I have guided school groups whose accompanying teachers were published WW1 authors. Last year, one of the passengers on a high-specification tour of the Australian battlefields was a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Australian Army. You can bet the tour company was very intererested to know what HE thought about the tour, including the guide.

I'm still booked by the same company after nearly 14 years, and for another after 5 years, when there are plenty of other guides out there if they wanted a change. I'm booked to guide tours in 2013, 2014, 2015 and one in 2016.

It may sound old-fashioned as I say, but that background IS my accreditation. I'm not sure where I would fit in with the GofBG system. I can see that this method of accreditation won't help us to get a "workforce" of guides who are ready to get up, go out and guide tours now. I can see a point in trying to give aspiring guides a head start by letting them consider some of the issues they will need to be aware of, but I think that training by accompanying, observing and assisting an experienced guide could be a better option than an exam.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I'm not sure where I would fit in with the GofBG system. ...

In a strange sort of way Tom, that rather sums up the current situation. Its a bit worrying to hear that you, with so much experience, dont see yourself fitting in to the current GofBFG setup, but this whole issue seems to have settled into an "either you're with us or you're against us" situation.

Nobody is against "standards" in guiding (if there are any posts which are against, then I have missed them - please point them out), and I think that posters who might be inferring that there is a feeling against the setting and achievement of standards might have misunderstood what some of the posts which have not been entirely supportive of the GofBFGs have been saying (or have intended). The fact of the matter is that the guild are new kids on the block, and without knocking their intentions in any way, maybe a bit more effort not to "step on toes" on their part may have eased their passage a bit (?). Posts which border on "I'm in the guild - we are the champions !" are not going to win many friends.

The point which I was making in post #190 was that the guild issues badges to members regardless of whether they have passed "the path to the badge" or not. Both badges show Guild of Battlefield Guides, and the inference is obvious. Nobody has addressed that issue.

Tom

[centurion]

The name guild has associations with the old medieval guilds which developed into trade organisations (cartels) for keeping people out (and prices up) as much as any guarantee of quality

[ianjonesncl]

What form of organisation should issue accreditation?

Chris

A number of people have detailed the fact that they hold qualifications from an accredited professional organisation (as I do myself). I am unaware of how an organisation becomes recognised, however, HM revenue and Customs issues a list of organisations where professional fees can be offset against tax.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/list3/index.htm

If it is a professional body that offers the qualification, it should be able to prove to HMRC that it has sufficient status for them to recognise it as a professional body or learned society as opposed to a guild / association / club.

Ian

[ianjonesncl]

Then let us turn this discussion around. I guess my questions are aimed both at those members here who already make a living as battlefield guides; those who might consider doing so one day; and even those who would be paying customers of such guides. I do not narrow my questions to apply only to UK-based guides.

Do you consider some form of quality accreditation of battlefield guides to be valuable?

What would the guide need to achieve/demonstrate in order to be accredited?

What form of organisation should issue accreditation?

Chris

City and Guilds offer a NVQ qualification for a Travel and Tourism Professional (4976).

http://www.cityandgu...sm-professional

It looks like this qualification would give the relevant skills to operate in the tourist industry. The NVQ 3 details specialist routes, and I would see no reason why a battlefield guide could not be added. It would still raise the question as to what would be the syllabus, through presumably this is where the GofBFG 9 part plan would come in.

Ian

[Phil Wood]

It may sound old-fashioned as I say, but that background IS my accreditation. I'm not sure where I would fit in with the GofBG system. I can see that this method of accreditation won't help us to get a "workforce" of guides who are ready to get up, go out and guide tours now. I can see a point in trying to give aspiring guides a head start by letting them consider some of the issues they will need to be aware of, but I think that training by accompanying, observing and assisting an experienced guide could be a better option than an exam.

What you are proposing is an apprenticeship - and it sounds good to me. The big gap in the Guild's 9 steps is actually guiding a tour. However, like any apprenticeship system there needs to be an approved method of assessing that the apprentice has achieved a standard of competence that he/she is ready to go it alone. In my opinion this would be by assessment perhaps combined with some Guild like system or NVQ to demonstrate competence in the background activities of preparation, organisation, legalities, etc.

[chrislock]

Please forgive me but why do many posting here only speak of guide assessment etc? Surely knowing the legal requirements of the country you are to guide in must be the priority as guiding cannot take place there without it?

Since this thread broke out I have spoken to Guild members and non Guild members on their current legal situation when they visit Belgium. Some without doubt are operating out of Great Britain I believe with an incorrect, third party and the transportation of fee paying customers insurance policy required to operate legally in Belgium or France.

As per the guides/companies registered and operating legally already within Belgium & France, why should we be subject to Guild interference when perhaps some of their own UK based members are not operating legally over here? I suggest those of you who do visit/work here, quickly contact the French/Belgian authorities as their laws and operating requirements are very different to those of the UK, especially when working as agents on behalf of the local authorities and the state.

It sounds to me when speaking to UK guides, some seem not at all sure on the legal requirements in Belgium and France and simply treat guiding whatever/wherever on the continent as an extension to the UK or dare I say it the old green card personal policies.

Fee paying clients transportation insurance, registration and working as per the law is already in place for us registered living and working in France and Belgium.

This being the case, can I ask why the IGBG feels it has the right or duty to speak on behalf of all when in reality, perhaps it's own house may not be completely in order as others also believe??

Battlefield guiding is a package and I agree, it must be sound and it must fit the bill accordingly but to keep harping on about assessment only is simply wrong!

[Sly]

Hi,

Here are below the legal requirements for a person working as a battlefield guide in France. I think it could be helpful for some people to read and print it .

1 - Guiding activity only (without providing any sort of transport)

- Registration at the Chamber of Commerce where you live , you're given a SIRET number

- On most of the battlefield sites guiding doesn't required a special accreditation, no card or guide licence is required except for the classified sites such as: « ville d'art et d'histoire », « monument historique », « site classé UNESCO », etc... in this case a licence of « guide conferencier national » is compulsory. This licence is delivered by the Ministry of Culture (D.R.A.C) after exam and validation. You are supposed to know if the sites where you work are classified (some of them are) or not.

- Taxation: guiding activity is submitted to a 19,6% V.A.T tax, plus all the other income taxes... My advice is to have a good accountant in France !

- A guide can't provide and charge any other service than guiding, only museum fees can be included. No lunch, accommodation or any other additionnal service can be charged unless you have travel agency licence (with a financial garantee of... 99.000 euros !)

- Professionnal insurance

2 – Guiding activity and transport (guides transporting customers in their own vehicle, in a hired car or in any other motorized vehicle). All what is above is required plus:

According to the public transport legislation in France a transport licence is required to transport passengers, whatever your activity is. This licence (submitted to an exam) is delivered by the D.R.E.A.L (Ministry of Transport) and the legal requirements are, plus the exam:

- Vehicle not older more than 6 years

- Mechanical control every year

- identification of the vehicle (markings) is compulsory, with the SIRET number of the company and a special sticker on the windscreen

- Medical check-up for the driver

- A Financial garantee per vehicle (1500 euros for a 9 seaters, 9000 euros for a bus)

- Special insurance for public transport

And I probably forgot some other minor points...

Sly

[Petroc]

Having cast this 'bomb into the trenches' in the first instance, i.e having started the thread, I must admit to being slightly amazed as to comments against existing or new members, and at times have been appalled by the total dismissal of a relatively young Historical organisation that does not necessarily promote 'jobs for the boys' (remember my original post..'I joined for my own personal reasons...' ) but simply seeks to enhance the ability of anyone, whether a professional guide or a casual ones, to enhance their own guidance skills at major historical sites; I appreciate the experience and expertise of existing guides on this Forum, but how can you deny anybody the legitimacy of having the right and ability to choose to go down the route of what is now an academically-recognised qualification?

[chrislock]

Petroc, please allow me to respectfully request you read Sly's post immediately above. Guiding is not just about passing a so say academically recognised qualification as you put it!

Without the legalities being put into place first, no guiding can take place irrelevant to how many stages of guide assessment has taken place....

[Chris_Baker]

Hi,

Here are below the legal requirements for a person working as a battlefield guide in France. I think it could be helpful for some people to read and print it .

1 - Guiding activity only (without providing any sort of transport)

- Registration at the Chamber of Commerce where you live , you're given a SIRET number

- On most of the battlefield sites guiding doesn't required a special accreditation, no card or guide licence is required except for the classified sites such as: « ville d'art et d'histoire », « monument historique », « site classé UNESCO », etc... in this case a licence of « guide conferencier national » is compulsory. This licence is delivered by the Ministry of Culture (D.R.A.C) after exam and validation. You are supposed to know if the sites where you work are classified (some of them are) or not.

- Taxation: guiding activity is submitted to a 19,6% V.A.T tax, plus all the other income taxes... My advice is to have a good accountant in France !

- A guide can't provide and charge any other service than guiding, only museum fees can be included. No lunch, accommodation or any other additionnal service can be charged unless you have travel agency licence (with a financial garantee of... 99.000 euros !)

...

Thank you, Sly. That is very helpful. But on reading that, I cannot see how it applies to guides who live in and who have a business based in the UK. The UK business is not taking income in France so is not liable to French VAT. They are not domiciled in France and have no Chamber of Commerce with which to register for SIRET. And a UK business can include whichever goods or services it wishes as long as it is within appropriate UK sales and package holiday law.

Or am I wrong?

[ianjonesncl]

what is now an academically-recognised qualification?

Petroc

Recognised by whom ?

The Guild, like may organisations, will appeal to some and not to others, and for me I can see many attractions. I went through the benefits of joining

http://www.gbg-inter...om/benefits.htm

In terms of the social / promotional / practical benefits I can see why someone like your self and many others would join. Certainly there have been some good advocates from some members who posted to this thread.

However, when I look at the professional benefits I see

"To be awarded and to make use of a publicly recognized qualification at a good academic level, purposely designed for this highly specialised profession"

However, from what I can see the guild is not recognised as a professional body by HMRC, and I am struggling to find it on the office of Qualification and Examinations Register

http://ofqual.gov.uk/

Surely you can not just make up a qualification ?

Ian

[Sly]

Thank you, Sly. That is very helpful. But on reading that, I cannot see how it applies to guides who live in and who have a business based in the UK. The UK business is not taking income in France so is not liable to French VAT. They are not domiciled in France and have no Chamber of Commerce with which to register for SIRET. And a UK business can include whichever goods or services it wishes as long as it is within appropriate UK sales and package holiday law.

Chris, according to the law here in France, if you work (as an independant or self employed) and live more than 6 month of the year in France then you are submitted to the French tax system. By the way it was one the main reason why David Beckham signed for Paris Saint Germain for only 5 month 1/2 !

Anyway if the French Tax office estimates that the main activity is in France, whatever the period is, you can also be submitted to the french tax system. There are numerous recent examples in the medias (Ryan AIr at Marseille)

Another important point, the Tax office considers that our activity depends largely on where we start and finish the tour: for the similar tour a pick-up at Dover or at Calais makes a big difference for them and it's the same for the Ministry of Transport;(according to the public transport legislation)

Regards,

Sly

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... how can you deny anybody the legitimacy ...

"Petroc" - I don't think anybody is really denying anybody anything, but in posts #1 and #210 you may well have answered your own question with regards to the validity of (at least some) guild members claims to superiority.

What do you mean by "... comments against existing or new members" ?

Tom

[Petroc]

Ian; forgive me for not being able to quote the EXACT relevant information; I have no direct knowledge of the precise academic accreditation beyond the stated constitution of the Guild, which states that the qualification of 'badged status' is recognised at NVQ level. If this is indeed incorrect then I can only apologise and will take the issue up with the appropriate executive members.

[Guest exuser1]

Ian; forgive me for not being able to quote the EXACT relevant information; I have no direct knowledge of the precise academic accreditation beyond the stated constitution of the Guild, which states that the qualification of 'badged status' is recognised at NVQ level. If this is indeed incorrect then I can only apologise and will take the issue up with the appropriate executive members.

Please also ask at what level of NVQ it's recognised ?