Guild of Battlefield Guides

[CGM]

I must thank Willywombat and Simon for their answers to my question about coping with complaints. I did read them and have continued to follow the thread when I can, but I have been looking after my 10 week old granddaughter and haven't had time (or enough sleep) to concentrate!

Simon, what you say makes a lot of sense and I appreciate the time spent on your explanation.

CGM

[chrislock]

But a Guild Member who goes through the mill and becomes 'BADGED' has, in my humble opinion, done something a little like passing PARA or RM selection - he can then always 'jack' and hand his beret back - BUT HE DID IT! Harry Fecitt

Jesus Bushfighter. You can't be serious!! I have a feeling every former para/marine badged today within the Guild are all about to have a word in your ear mate. That statement alone is damning!!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... a Guild Member who goes through the mill and becomes 'BADGED' has, in my humble opinion, done something a little like passing PARA or RM selection - he can then always 'jack' and hand his beret back - BUT HE DID IT! Harry Fecitt

"Humble" and, I'd have to suggest, terribly, terribly, misguided. You are doing your organisation no favours making statements like that.

Tom

[salientguide]

Well just returned from a 5 day break, not battlefielding unfortuneately but very nice down on the south coast/.Out of interest if ever in Wareham look in the church yard whole collection of interesting Great war CWGC head stones, and WW2 as well. Never know what you are going to come across.

And I see debate has continuued to rage with several other GBG members giving I feel eloquent responses. I much admire Chris Ls attitiude , I feel you would be a strong assett in the Guild with your wealth of particular experience being actually based on a major guiding centre. And I fully appreciate the work local guides do and the service they provide.

We are always going to disagree on some points, Why we disagree so vehementtly when we appear to be like minded people, with a similar interest( although many in the Guild have different interests, WW2 of course, the English Civil war is quite well represented, we have a Canadian badged guide, early settlement battles in Canada anyone and an Australian badged guide who is an expert on Vietnam and South Africa etc) .

I have a feeling that first impressions are unfortuneately lasting impressions. The mood against the Guild seems to come from an idea of---- Who are these self appointed people to tell me wether I am a good guide or not? The Guild started as it did and with the personalities that were involved, and again some still seem to feel resentment about real or imaginary slights and grievances and personality clashes , mainly arising from that time, plus some probably unwise public utterances from early members.I accept that we all have and start with imperfections.

But I re-iterate again as per a previous post, --that was ten years ago--the world and the Guild has made progress moved on. Sadly others do not seem to have followed.

Sadly our great founding patron is no longer with us but the Guild is one of the lasting tributes to his involvement in military history and battlefield guiding. Nearly all the founding officers and committee have now retired. We have a new and highly respected president Gary Sheffield,( and Al Murray "the Pub Landlord" as vice-president did you know he has a deep interst in military history? ) as I said the committee is now no longer " self appointed" but elected annually at the AGM weekend.

The Guild offers members several training weekend a year across all periods where experienced Guides share their knowldge with others, the last was a highly succsessful week end at Bletchley Park.

And it is starting to offer a professional voice on subjects relating to guiding as we discussed at the start. Then comes the usual cries ---who are these people claiming to speak for us, well to put it bluntly they WONT be speaking for YOU because you have chosen not to get involved or to ignore or try and belittle the development of the Guild.

I have often said the Guild is not for everyone there are many stout minded individualists in this and every profession and absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And a final word on the Badge. It is a real achievement to put in the time, work and effort and some expenss into succsessfully completing the accreditation process, marked and judged by ones peers. Does it guarantee employment as some one asked..absolutely not. It has no official standing other than the satisfaction of knowing that ones peers regard ones work of equal standard and standing.

For the public what does it mean? It means that if one goes to a badged Guide one will NOT get non badged members or others wether wearing the "ordinary" guild badge or not, asking the way to main cemeteries. One will NOT get, after asking for a specific regimental tour a bog standard Somme tour as described. We could all go on quoting real or second hand instances ad infinitum. But the idea of discussion is not to drive deeper wedges between us but hopefully to find some common ground.

Have we now answered Petrocs original question if four pages ago --.Have attitiudes towards the Guild changed over time, in some cases yesand in mid flow there seemed a more reasoned response saying some form of standard may be a good thing,. in others definately no .

I would only urge those outside of the Guild to look again. Your experience and expertise could be put to great benfit to youselves and to others within an organisation of like minded colleagues. SG

[Guest exuser1]

If there is to be a common ground between the badged members of the Guild why on your own web site do you state that being a badged guide is being a member of an Elite company? It's the Guild that is creating the wedges with comments such as that ,and being judged by ones peers ? don't see any of the top Napoleonic names in the list ?

[bushfighter]

Ian, Chris & Tom Thank you. Please stop falling in love with your own semantics and prejudices and read what other people write. I once won the right to wear the Red Beret and I judge that experience as being a LITTLE LIKE exposing yourself to the chance of failure on the IGBG evaluation tests - it is all a matter of getting off your backside, accepting risk, defying your own fears and producing an acceptable worth-while effort.

[Sly]

Hi,

This thread is interesting, as I didn't know very much about all the different aspects of the Guild. I repeat I am not a pro or an anti-Guild and to be honest I don't really care, being french and working in France as a guide I don't feel concerned by this "foreign" guild (there's nothing negative, but the Guild has nothing to do with our professionnal and official organisations here). I understand that the Guild is an unofficial organisation (again, don't misunderstand me; there's nothing negative) , not a professionnal regulator (as you said) and it's aimed to promote and garantee a certain level of knowledge for the guides and it's a good idea. I understand also by reading your post that guiding is not regulated in the UK whereas it is in many other countries in EU. Even if most of us live in the EU, legislation is still very different from a country to another. Sorry to insist again on the legislative matters and the regulation aspect of guiding, but it seems to me that it should be the first thing to wonder ! How can you work, whatever you do, if you don't know the regulation and the laws in the place where you live and work ? To work as a guide is not only a matter of historical knowledge, but you have to know what do you have to do to work, what do you need (licence, accreditation, etc...), where do you register, what and how you can do, what are you allowed to do (or not) as a guide, in what case, etc... all these legislative matters are essential I think. It seems also that there's a lot of confusion between guide – tour manager – tour operator – travel agent -etc... The activity of guiding is very regulated in France, as it is in Belgium I believe and in many other countries, and we have to submit to that strict legislation.

The Guild could be (and should be) interested in knowing the different regulations regarding the guiding activity in the different countries. The Somme Tourist board and the Comité départemental du Tourisme de la Somme can provide on simple demand information regarding the activity of battlefield guide in the Somme. It would be interesting to know the legislation in Belgium too.

I don't want to offense anyone and apologize if my post is not very clear but english is not my native language.

Regards,

Sly

[SWorrall]

The Guild could be (and should be) interested in knowing the different regulations regarding the guiding activity in the different countries. The Somme Tourist board and the Comité départemental du Tourisme de la Somme can provide on simple demand information regarding the activity of battlefield guide in the Somme. It would be interesting to know the legislation in Belgium too.

I don't want to offense anyone and apologize if my post is not very clear but english is not my native language.

Hi Sly,

the Guild has members living and working in your area, I know of one at Longueval, one at Flers, a third at Mailly-Maillet and a fourth and fifth at Auchonvillers, for starters. There are sure to be others who do not spring immediately to mind. They are well-versed in the laws of the nations where they live, I am certain. If I had a question about the local laws of any country I could contact the local member(s) directly and ask for their advice. One of the free fringe benefits of being part of something like the Guild is having a network of acquaintances willing to help you out and answer your questions.

Simon.

[chrislock]

Well I wanted to respond to SG's respectful and valid posts but then along came Bushfighters ridiculous post which I must respond to considering that I also "won the right" if that's the way he wish's to put it, to wear a black tank crewmans beret. Personally speaking, the award of my black beret does not come slightly close to passing the Parachute Regiment's awesome selective course P Coy or likewise, the awarding of the Royal Marines green beret. If you believe that passing the IGBG's assessment program compares then you really are living on another planet!!

Ref Sly's informative post and as per his desire to learn of the Belgian system I will do my best to explain. Please bear with me as this Belgium and if you wish to know where I am coming from, please speak to the indigenous Belgians who have had to put up with masses of paperwork and legislation falling on their desks over the decades.

As a BELGIAN registered business, we first had to achieve the following to become a legal business operating under Belgian and not British law.

1. Ministerie Van De Vlaamse Gemeenschap. Department Onderwijs

*This is the governmental department which you must convince with stamped official paperwork, that the business owner has certificates or diplomas of higher education. If not, you will have to study from 2 to 4 years applicable to the type of business you wish to register.

2. FOD Financien, Belastingen en Invordering - Federal Ministry of Finances.

*The achieving of this will secure your official unique BTV number. Without it, no legal business!

3. Kamer Van Koophandel

*Chamber of Commerce.

4. Acerta

*Social security bank.

All of the above are MUST HAVES and must be in place to ensure your company is legally operating in BELGIUM as a legal BELGIAN registered company.

The French, Dutch, etc will all have their own in place legislation. I would be keen to know what the UK based guides and companies require when working in France, the Netherlands and Belgium?

On top of the above, all can be blown out of the water if the company/guide is operating without the correct level of third party insurance applicable to the country they are working/registered in?

The Belgian guides/companies if working on behalf or representing the STATE/LOCAL AUTHORITIES are also required on top of this to study set historical syllabuses and pass examinations to confirm their level of competency.

Told you it was interesting living and working in Belgium!!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... the Guild has members living ...

Simon - some "confusion" might arise from posts which do not explain whether they are talking of "badged" or un-badged guides. Perhaps you could explain the situation in your post #83 ?

It's an area where the G of BFG may have caused themselves a problem, because "I'm a member of the G of BFG" rather loses it's cachet when you find that the membership concerned simply involved paying a membership fee.

No doubt you will clarify things.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Tom Thank you. Please stop falling in love with your own semantics and prejudices

"bushfighter" - If you feel the need to use words such as semantics and prejudices you should possibly spend some time determining if they are appropriate to the issues you are addressing. In this case I suggest they are not.

Can I also refer you to the second point in my post #57. Again, a point where the G of BFG's members (of whatever class) rather let the organisation down by "speaking on behalf of the guild" whilst masking their identity.

Tom

[Chris_Baker]

.... because "I'm a member of the G of BFG" rather loses it's cachet when you find that the membership concerned simply involved paying a membership fee. ...

I always chuckle when I read a website or other material similarly describing a guide, researcher, author etc as a "Member of the Western Front Association" as though it is something ordinary plebs could only aspire to.

[Cormorant]

Tom, if you go back a few pages you will see that one of the previous posts (from Willywombat) spoke about the advantages of knowing a number of contacts through the Guild from whom one could ask advice. All Simon was saying (Post 83) was that we have members on the Continent, badged and unbadged, from whom we can ask advice if need be. If someone bothers to join the Guild one can surely assume that as well as an interest in their chosen period of warfare they have an interest in guiding and meeting and exchanging views with like-minded people. In addition to such informal contacts the Guild is also in contact with the bodies such as those mentioned by Sly and Chrislock.

Instead of continually sniping from the sidelines why don't you come to a Guild event? Shock horror - you might even find that we are reasonable people who are simply trying to make ourselves better guides whilst enjoying the company of other guides..

Alison

PS Still waiting to hear more details of the individual who was allegedly turned down for badging for rubbish reasons. You might at least give us a chance to examine the allegation.

[David Filsell]

In view of the heat generated by this thread perhaps 'badgered guides rather than badged guides should be the term.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I always chuckle when I read a website or other material similarly describing a guide, researcher, author etc as a "Member of the Western Front Association" as though it is something ordinary plebs could only aspire to.

Chris; quite, but don't you think that its informative to be told that the person concerned maybe sees cachet in having a magazine subscription (WFA membership) in the same way that some see having paid cash for a badge (GofBG ordinary, or if you prefer, "pleb" membership) is in some way also prestigious ?

Its the addition of the fact that the relevant WFA membership number is normally something like 2,108,756 which always draws my attention. I'm not sure why, but it does.

Tom

[salientguide]

I always chuckle when I read a website or other material similarly describing a guide, researcher, author etc as a "Member of the Western Front Association" as though it is something ordinary plebs could only aspire to.

Chris, surely as an ex chairman of that particular organisation, you would admit that whilst it carries no particular importance it is at least a sign that the person concerned is interested enough to go out and join any specific organisation referred to? In other words carry their interest on that little bit further? SG

[salientguide]

Chris; quite, but don't you think that its informative to be told that the person concerned maybe sees cachet in having a magazine subscription (WFA membership) in the same way that some see having paid cash for a badge (GofBG ordinary, or if you prefer, "pleb" membership) is in some way also prestigious ?

Tom

Now we are getting into the realm of the deliberately offensive, but with this poster presumably under his real name, nothing new there! I wonder why he doth protest so much?

SG or Chris John GBG badge 32 if you want to look it up so cant be accused of hiding away!!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Instead of continually sniping from the sidelines why don't you come to a Guild event? Shock horror - you might even find that we are reasonable people who are simply trying to make ourselves better guides whilst enjoying the company of other guides..

... PS Still waiting to hear more details of the individual who was allegedly turned down for badging for rubbish reasons. You might at least give us a chance to examine the allegation.

Cormorant - your attempt at belittlement is water off a duck's back. I will comment on your organisation's activities as I see them, and as I see fit. I will also (ref post #92 etc) make my comments under my own name. - I see no need to hide behind silly pre-pubescent playground pretend-names such as Willybumblehead - the use of which I find to be especially strange when the people concerned are members of what is claiming to be a professional organisation.

To follow-up your first suggestion I have to, I believe, put aside and pay for a weekend away, have a proposer and a seconder present (who ?), and then pay you another £ 75 pa. During the course of this I have to subject myself to the whims of some people who I do not know, and about whom I have heard ... etc etc. That's not a very enticing proposition, I think.

In an earlier post Chris Baker made a very valid point regarding "Chartered" status within the engineering professions (for example) by way of regulation and recognition. The point which he made regarding self-regulation was entirely valid, but in the case of the GofBFG there is a very important difference - Chartered Institutes in professions such as engineering are long-standing and have earned recognition. The GofBFG are not, and thus-far have not.

With regards to your "ps" - you and I both know that 20 milliseconds after I post a message answering that or giving any information which would identify the individual concerned, then that post would be deleted and I would be back on the GWF naughty step (again). I will however be quite happy to give you all of the relevant information verbally, face-to-face. If you are going to be at the TNA sometime then let me know, or make an alternative suggestion.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Now we are getting into the realm of the deliberately offensive, but with this poster presumably under his real name, nothing new there! I wonder why he doth protest so much?

SG or Chris John GBG badge 32 if you want to look it up so cant be accused of hiding away!!

In what way is that offensive ? To be a member of the WFA you pay an annual subscription and you become a member. You don't have to have any qualification or demonstrable knowledge, you simply give them money. The GofBFGs is exactly the same - it is spelt out HERE by the Gof BFG themselves - you give them money and you become a member. You don't have to have any qualification or demonstrable knowledge, you simply give them money. Which bit of give them money = membership don't you understand ?

Tom

[PMHart]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread - I've not seen such writhing contorted semantical arguments and visceral hatred since I was a Labour Party activist in the golden 1980s! Well done everyone and kudos to the moderators who have allowed this the space to develop properly! The first accusations of financial improprietary and threats of violence should surface by Saturday!

Happy Pete

PS I'm on the edge of my seat!

[Chris_Baker]

Chris, surely as an ex chairman of that particular organisation, you would admit that whilst it carries no particular importance it is at least a sign that the person concerned is interested enough to go out and join any specific organisation referred to? In other words carry their interest on that little bit further? SG

I can't disagree with "interested enough" from your reply there, salientguide. But they never say "I also subscribe to 'Britain at War' magazine" or "I also build Airfix kits of WW1 tanks", which would also be a sign of interest. Quoting "I am a WFA member" is to suggest to the uninformed that the guide/researcher is in some kind of closely-guarded magic circle. It ain't so.

[salientguide]

I accept that Chris I guess it depends on the intention behind the use of the term. If it is meant to impress or imply something extra then absolutely --it is no more than any person can claim by joiningan organisation.

But whatever the topic or subject I would hope to see some indication that a person is at least intersted enough to do that little bit ( or even a large bit) extra. SG

[David Filsell]

As PH suggested this is really getting nasty now. What's the matter with building airfix kits. Clearly this is fundamental skill for any battlefield guide.

(Other key skills are the ability to track down bars, cheap ciggies and wine at least it was when did the job - but it was fun then without someone checking if I HAD A BADGE AN knew what time the whistle went off in a particular trench on July 1st and similar self important stuff.

I never had a tour manager, made it clear I wasn't one, but helped the driver (s) when there were problems. Key things remain common sense and the ability to pitch your guiding at a level to suit everyone from the anorack to the bored wife. Try teaching that on a course.

[Steven Broomfield]

And there's nothing more depressing than a sticky budgerigar.

[Chris_Baker]

I think that is the first time in almost 2 million posts on GWF that the phrase "sticky budgerigar" has ever been used. Is it copyright?