Guild of Battlefield Guides

[StuartAB]

Any chance a moderator/admin person might think it wise to lock this thread, which has offered far more heat and light since around the second page?

[AlanCurragh]

I'm happy to but I fear being accused (again) of censorship. Maybe later on we'll put this to bed

[Steven Broomfield]

Oddly, I suspect post 300 (at the time of writing - pruning might affect numbers later) sums it up pretty well.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I cannot see why you should be so opposed to raising standards ...

I am not against raising standards - quite the opposite. I thought I'd stated that quite clearly. What I am "against" (more properly, what I don't agree with) is the muddled smokescreen which has been created whereby the guild projects a "qualified and approved" image, when in fact the majority of members have simply paid a subscription.

... TTM can get stroppy - nothing new there - I love you Tom. ...

David, if I could think of a cupboard to come out of I probably would (come out of it, - the heat being what it is). In the meantime please restrict yourself to lingering and affectionate glances across the Surrey WFA meeting room. (For goodness sakes - you know what some of this lot are like - give them 3 or 4 2s' and before you know where you are we'll have 28).

Tom

[judy7007]

I'm happy to but I fear being accused (again) of censorship. Maybe later on we'll put this to bed

I was actually hoping it might have gone by the time I came home, but here it still is, so against my better judgement I am (briefly) back. Raising standards does in my opinion include battlefield guides knowing whether to use the term interned or interred. One would expect that a doctor knows the difference between prostrate and prostate. It has nothing to with grammar, but with specialist subject knowledge. If a doctor told me I shoulda went to A&E I doubt I'd bat an eyelid but I'd lose a fair bit of confidence in him if he mixed up some parts of my anatomy.

[StuartAB]

Perhaps the apparent tactic of flooding the thread with absurdity is the only way to persuade people that we've heard it all before, at least three times.

Mornington Crescent. End of game.

Stuart

[AlanCurragh]

Indeed Stuart. Some people want the thread closed, some want to comment constructively, and some think the thread is in Skindles. It may well close shortly unless anyone puts forward a decent counter-argument...

[Gareth Davies]

Please don't close it yet as in amongst the frivolity and humour I am finding listening to each side of the argument informative. I was about to join the Guild and to start the process of becoming a full blown badged guide. My initial reaction to what I read here was to immediately discard any intentions to join despite there being a number of the fully badged guides that I have a tenuous connection to (I have led a tour with one, was at Sandhurst with another, and taught the son of one at Sandhurst - I told you the connections were tenuous). But I have swung back to the middle ground. So please let it run a while longer so I can make up my mind.

[AlanCurragh]

And that is a decent counter-argument....

[AlanCurragh]

David - quite simple - leave the thread for those who want to post sensibly - and there are some even after all this time

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Indeed Stuart. Some people want the thread closed, some want to comment constructively, and some think the thread is in Skindles. It may well close shortly unless anyone puts forward a decent counter-argument...

I have to concede that we are going round in circles. In what is currently post #286 I asked - "I also, by the way, refuse to believe that I am the only one to have realised (it is blatantly obvious) that the GofBFG's has tied itself in knots with this member / member's badge / badged guide situation which it has created, whereby their "qualified" guides (the minority) and their "unqualified guides" (the majority) all wear a badge - and the public and the world in general have not a clue that the majority of the "badged members" have simply paid a subscription and been given a badge." ..."

"Cormorant" seems to be the only poster who might be claiming authority to speak on behalf of the GofBFGs (unless anybody else is not declaring an interest / involvement) and as her answer to the "badging" / qualification question seems to be that everybody other than the guild is confused as they cannot tell a badge which is a "badge" from a badge which is a "pin", and do not intuitively know whether a member is a "badged" member or a member who has simply paid a subscription and wears a badge (pin, if you prefer) ............. The guild created this beast, not me, and unless somebody inside the organisation is prepared to (sensibly) address at least that issue, then maybe the topic should just be archived (for future reference).

Tom

[Gareth Davies]

I don't like the idea of closed shops and I don't like the idea of self appointed guardians, but what harm is the Guild causing? And if an individual really wants to improve their guiding skills, isn't the Guild a positive way of doing that? And if it isn't, what is the alternative?

[slick63]

I loosely considered becoming a guide quite a few years ago before I even realised there were a number of people already doing this sort of thing, but as I find it difficult to converse in front of large groups it was a no go from the start.

I have met a couple of chaps from the GBG and both were as chalk and cheese in a group. One was ex mob and was very self confident to the point of being overbearing, whilst the other was a quiet sort of chap. Both were good in their own way of getting the information across, but get them in a one to one conversation and it was incredibly hard work getting a discussion going.

I have no problem with someone wanting to 'belong' in order to accentuate their credibility, as long as the GBG don`t become some sort of governing body. I`ve seen too many interests/occupations hankering after professional recognition go down this route, and all have come to a certain amount of grief.

Edited 21 July , 2013 by slick63

[Hedley Malloch]

The standard of guiding is variable. I have been on some tours organised by the WFA in the 90s and the standard was excellent. On the other hand, last year I sat in the garden of Ulster Tower last year and couldn't help over-hearing two independent guides, with small parties, uttering the most appalling guff to a entirely credulous audience. Simple, basic factual stuff concerning the nature of the artefacts in the Tower's outdoors eating area. Nobody could argue that there is a need for raising the standard of some independent guides and that clearly we cannot rely on the market place to sort them out.

There would appear to be a rôle for some sort of licensing agency, but the devil is in the detail and in France. And this is where the GBG need to be careful.

There is only one agency which will hand out licenses to allow anyone to do anything in France - and that is the State. Independent professional organisations are much weaker here than they are in the UK, where they exist at all. It is the State which decides whether or not a person is 'professionally' qualified - and nobody else. The State has its own (highly competitive) procedures for assessing competence known as agrégation. I won't go into details as to what is involved but - how's your written and spoken French?

Earlier in this thread there was reference to the problems now being faced by anglo-saxon guides in Chamonix who are coming up against this sort of problem. The reason why no action is taken against battlefield guides is, I suspect, that unlike mountain guides in Chamonix there are very few French people in the business. If there was ever a number of them and they decided that professional regulation was necessary, then the GBG would have a real problem. And one they would find difficult to counter.

So softly, softly is the order of GBG day. And get rid of the badges before someone in French authority asks you who has given you permission to wear them.

[centurion]

I wonder if these were the same guides I encountered in Pozières last year. I was trying to frame a photo of the Tank Corps memorial highlighting the drive chains when a small tour bus pulled up, the passengers poured out and stood between my camera and the memorial whilst the guide told some amazing incorrect things about the model tanks then they all poured across the road to the wind mill site and one of the guides read out a description in a loud but incredibly bored voice. The tour members ticked off the two memorials in a list they were all carrying then got back on the bus which drove off. Two sites in about five minutes!

I agree that standards need maintaining but fail to see how without an independent examining and certification board recognised in France to qualify guides just how GBG will achieve very much other than a spurious appearance of standards.

[Sue Light]

As the world and his wife has commented on the thread, I must add my own guide story. A few years back I was on a tour, the guide being one of the very early GOBG guides. Not being terribly knowledgeable, I'd tried to do some homework before I went, and had equipped myself with some background literature etc. Early in the day our guide had already had an altercation with two men on the tour who tried to correct him on one or two things - they were told in no uncertain terms that he would not put up with interruptions.

As we stood at Ploegsteert Wood, gazing out to the site of the Christmas Truce, I was looking at a trench map I had with me, trying to get my bearings and pin-point the action. With no warning, it was snatched out of my hand by the guide, who was furiously shouting 'WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?' - at which point he actually walked off with my map and continued his address to his humble followers. Having just Googled him, I see that he is still a much valued and revered member of the GOBG. Hopefully not a model for others to copy.

Sue

[centurion]

I think that in that account Sue you encapsulate the fears that some of us have about the organisation

[judy7007]

I didn't realise it was possible to get a list of the Badged guides on their website which I have now had a good look at. There appear to be 59. I have not been on a tour with any of them. I also found the aims interesting - one of them is "To be part of an elite group devoted to furthering the understanding and practice of your craft". I also found the photos of the two badges - there is notation that the qualified badge is instantly recognisable by its red infill (but possibly only instantly recognisable to other members?)

As a tour guest (customer) I am pondering on all I have read here. Right now I am feeling like putting my retirement funds into expanding my library and making my own way around the battlefields (which I've done before and find it excellent, but sometimes I like the company of other guests and the chit chat that goes on). Still deciding about my touring future.

[Guest]

I reckon Dycer (George) would make a good guide

Seriously, I thought one would have to have some qualification in the field. I have been on a number of guided tours in Europe, and have always been impressed by the standard. One Italian guide in particular was excellent. My only Western Front tour was unforgettable, but then my guide was Mr Chris Baker.

Institute of Tourist Guiding

Mike

[chrislock]

I also would like to think that I have room for improvement where required and deep down I would consider joining an organisation that could offer me improvement where required but unfortunately no organisation exists as of yet which will offer this in full. The IGBG may well have an internal programme of enhancing a guide's historical and presentation skills but what of the raft of legality stuff which their guides and member companies must have in place to work abroad in Belgium, France and elsewhere? I have spoken to several badged guides recently and they know who they are. Even they admit that apart from the Belgian and France based guides, most UK based guides are totally unaware that they are possibly working outside of the law.

The rub for me and always has been is highlighted by Judy above. If the IGBG are going to list them selves as an elite group then you had better be water-tight or else and by the way, please stop speaking on our behalves (ref EU discussions/proposals) when we already have legal and in place organisations managing us already.

But the rub for me continues. As for the rest of the internal workings of the Guild then I have no beef but if you desire total success, then firstly sort out your badge issues which Tom and others have recognised and also remove your restricted membership image, such as being proposed, seconded etc as revealed in many posts beforehand and why not consider implementing a membership entry scheme open to all, simply by merit or need?

Lastly, please consider to remove words such as "elite" until you really are elite across the full spectrum! It is words such as these which alienate the vast amount of superb guides already out there and the Guild today.

Best of luck.

Chris

[judy7007]

Lastly, please consider to remove words such as "elite" until you really are elite across the full spectrum! It is words such as these which alienate the vast amount of superb guides already out there and the Guild today.

And most certainly alienates me as a customer (perhaps there are others who would be attracted to this, but I am totally turned off). I'm sure I will recover my equilibrium and book again on a battlefield tour - choosing guides I research, or already know, or going with a company (northern) I trust to select excellent guides.

[Kate Wills]

our guide had already had an altercation with two men on the tour who tried to correct him on one or two things - they were told in no uncertain terms that he would not put up with interruptions. ...I was looking at a trench map I had with me, ...With no warning, it was snatched out of my hand by the guide, who was furiously shouting 'WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?' - at which point he actually walked off with my map ... I see that he is still a much valued and revered member of the GOBG.

How did he fare for the rest of the tour Sue? Did you get your map back? Did his mood improve? Did you get an apology or explanation? Snatching and walking off with someone's property is a criminal offence.

To the GBG,

This is surely an example of what you are a trying to eradicate. This person may know his history (though not quite well enough, by Sue's account), but appears temperamentally unsuited to dealing with the general public, who are also paying customers. If I was contemplating another tour, I would be anxious to avoid the Guide who led Sue's tour. Is there a complaints procedure in place? Might you institute a system, such as the stars used for hotels and restaurants and indeed auction sites, to indicate a good track record?

[Sue Light]

How did he fare for the rest of the tour Sue? Did you get your map back? Did his mood improve? Did you get an apology or explanation? Snatching and walking off with someone's property is a criminal offence.

The tour was with one of the best known tour companies. In addition to the guide and driver we also had a courier, a woman, who got my map back for me. By her own admission she had a very difficult time throughout as it seemed that the guide found it difficult to communicate directly with women, without an intermediary to smooth the waters - I met her again on a later tour. I think that she somehow acted as an ally for the rest of the time and we could at least have a smile about things, and people. His past history rather explained his attitude I think, but I don't think this is the place to expand. If I were to go on another organised tour, which is unlikely, I would definitely find out who the guide was before booking.

Sue

[Kate Wills]

we also had a courier, a woman, who got my map back for me.

That is appalling. A sackable offence, I would have thought.

[judy7007]

Oh my goodness! Name and shame as they say on DM (not possible i know). However knowing some GBG numbers has helped me track at least one I wanted to find out about. As Sue says - check in advance before booking. After all, it's our money...