keithfazzani Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 I hand out laminated trench maps when guiding, why not, it seems the sensible thing to do. Oh and I am a member of GOBG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 I reckon Dycer (George) would make a good guide Seriously, I thought one would have to have some qualification in the field. I have been on a number of guided tours in Europe, and have always been impressed by the standard. One Italian guide in particular was excellent. My only Western Front tour was unforgettable, but then my guide was Mr Chris Baker. Institute of Tourist Guiding Mike As ever you find some great information. The Institute of Tourist Guiding is a professional body recognised by HMRC. The exams look to include conducting an actual tour. They do not cover the regulatory side that Chris and others have their concerns about. Level 2 - Examinations: •Written examination - Questions requiring short (single word or phrase) answers. •Practical examination - on site or fixed route walk. Each candidate will be asked to make one or two presentations during the examination. Level 3 - Examinations: •Written examination - A combined paper with questions requiring short (single word or phrase) answers and questions requiring essay/note answers. •A Project on tour planning to be set and marked by the Programme Provider during the programme. •Practical Examinations - Two examinations on site or walk (or exceptionally on a fixed route coach). Each candidate will be asked to make two or three presentations during the examinations. Level 4 (Blue Badge) Examinations: •Written examinations ◦Background Knowledge examination - a transferable module. This paper has questions requiring short (single word or phrase) answers and essay/notes answers. It is sat by all candidates from all regions on the same date each year. ◦Regional examinations (i) Papers testing regional and local knowledge requiring both single word/phrase answers and essay answers, (ii) a project to be undertaken during the programme which is marked with (iii) practical paper testing tour planning skills and problem solving. •Practical examinations. There will be separate examinations on a coach, on a walk, in a church and in a museum or art gallery. Each candidate will be asked to make two or three presentations during each examination. Where the area of a qualification is large, the coach route will be given to candidates not more than 4 weeks before the examination. In a city, coach routes will be unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 Hey ho, I really hoped this would have gone away by now but a recent post has addressed the Guild so someone had better answer. Sue, I am appalled by this story and would not have expected any guide to react like that. He (whoever he was) should not be taken as an example of what we are trying to achieve in the Guild. As you said he was one of the very early IGBG Guides. It would be sexist to point out it was a 'he' - so I haven't before the rest of you crowd back in! Kate, as regards a complaints procedure this Guide would have been employed by a Tour Company and it would be to them that any complaints should have been made. Perhaps they were. The Guild does not run any tours for non-members. However, if anyone has a complaint about a Guild Guide then it should be made to the Guild Secretary (contact details on the website) who will raise it with the Guild Council for discussion and a decision on whether further action should be taken. Chris, As regards working in Europe, whilst individual UK guides may not know chapter and verse of the legislation, those running companies must do. I agree with you there. We maybe do need to look more closely at formal accreditation - although that still won't make some of you love us any more. At present the position, laid out in the Members Validation Brochure is as follows: Standards are high and in line with national academic criteria. Quality levels and controls have been set in accordance with education specifications for National Vocational Qualification Level 3 – that is pre-degree or GCE AS/A2 or BTEC National Diploma. The Validation Programme has been scrutinised by experienced members of the guiding fraternity, respected academics and a representative of a professional body; and based upon its use, the Guild has been offered accreditation by an established university with certification and modular Higher Education credits. As regards the difference between the badges - one is about an inch high and the other twice the size and infilled with red. So what most of you will say. Well fine. I worked hard for mine and am proud to wear it. It certainly made me raise my game as a Guide and as a female I like to think it gives me added credibility amongst you military anoraks - not that I need it being a military anorak myself. I personally would not use the term 'elite' and understand why the rest of you find it so irritating. However, many of the posts on this thread have obscured the reason the Guild was formed which was simply to raise the standards of battlefield guiding. One thing that does worry me is that I now appear to have reached the dizzy heights of Sergeant on the Forum on the basis of a number of posts on this this thread that I would really have rather not made. I hope this is the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 I often bump into Guides on the Somme and 2 experiences amused and shocked! 1 guy who I see all over the place was taking a party into Thiepval Centre and one of the staff rushed off to hide from him in their back room! He strode in demanding a coffee in a very loud voice! Saw him later taking over the running of Ulster tower cafe by pushing his way behind the counter! Really rude person. Other experience was a guide who had around 8 people with him and started to explain to me how he had found a very large live shell and in front of his group produced a hammer to try and remove the fuze! I alway do my own planning as it is part of the pleasure and easy to do these days with The Battleground series and this forum! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 In Egypt guides to the ancient antiquities are (or certainly were under the recent Mubarak military regime) required to have a certificate awarded after examination by the relevant authorities to prove that they knew their stuff Unfortunately it would seem that an outlay to the relevant person could sometimes by pass this. There was also an unofficial association amongst the guides themselves.There was one guide who gained a reputation for arrogance and rudeness (much like the person or persons described in earlier posts). I had the misfortune to briefly come across him when I took a Nile tour. Most of the guides were politeness and helpfulness personified. I heard some time later from one of my firm's Cairo partners (who had a son who was a police inspector) that the rude guide had vanished quite suddenly and it seemed that the unofficial guides association had decided that he was bad for business. It seems that a message was passed to the police not to waste energy looking for him but not to worry as no embarrassing body would be found, at least not for some centuries. Now that's what I call a proper guild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick63 Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 By her own admission she had a very difficult time throughout as it seemed that the guide found it difficult to communicate directly with women Sue Sounds suspiciously like the overbearing guide I mentioned in my previous post. A few years ago my wife and her friend organised a charity walk around the Somme. They planned the route, 21 miles over 2 days, it was to be a simple affair. However a service charity got involved and used the two guides I mentioned. The overbearing chap changed the route, when my wife enquired why?, she was robustly told to mind her own business as it was his walk. I later heard the chap tell one of the support drivers that women couldn`t walk 11 miles in a day, so he shortened the route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 All guides have good and bad days but ......... If you are looking for a guide I suspect you are best choosing one by recommendation from someone who is independant and knows you and you idiosyncracies. There are good and bad; there are personable and brusque; there are knowledgable and bluffers amongst them. Not all guides will suit you, some may suit others, but not you, but no guide should be dis-respectful to any of the party, as some clearly are. Some of the best guides I have ever had have been people with detailed local knowledge above all and have able to deal with problems like tiring walkers, unexpected injuries in remote locations and the like. The ability to replan a day where timings (or abilities or weather) go astray is a key requirement in my book. As for "women can't walk 11 miles", well some men can't; some women can't but most should be able to do so, even when they are well over 25 ........ Try telling that one to Mrs Wills who happily walks rather more than that on battlefield tours and other walks, some of it over fairly tough territory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 All guides have good and bad days but ......... If you are looking for a guide I suspect you are best choosing one by recommendation from someone who is independant and knows you and you idiosyncracies. There are good and bad; there are personable and brusque; there are knowledgable and bluffers amongst them. Not all guides will suit you, some may suit others, but not you, but no guide should be dis-respectful to any of the party, as some clearly are. Some of the best guides I have ever had have been people with detailed local knowledge above all and have able to deal with problems like tiring walkers, unexpected injuries in remote locations and the like. The ability to replan a day where timings (or abilities or weather) go astray is a key requirement in my book. As for "women can't walk 11 miles", well some men can't; some women can't but most should be able to do so, even when they are well over 25 ........ Try telling that one to Mrs Wills who happily walks rather more than that on battlefield tours and other walks, some of it over fairly tough territory! Err Martin - I said something not dissimilar right back in the misty beginnings of primordial time when this thread started,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 Err Martin - I said something not dissimilar right back in the misty beginnings of primordial time when this thread started,. A good point is worth repeating ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 22 July , 2013 Share Posted 22 July , 2013 Hey ho, I really hoped this would have gone away by now ... ... Kate, as regards a complaints procedure this Guide would have been employed by a Tour Company and it would be to them that any complaints should have been made. Perhaps they were. The Guild does not run any tours for non-members. However, if anyone has a complaint about a Guild Guide then it should be made to the Guild Secretary (contact details on the website) who will raise it with the Guild Council for discussion and a decision on whether further action should be taken. ... ... As regards the difference between the badges - one is about an inch high and the other twice the size and infilled with red. ... I can quite imagine that you "really hoped this would have gone away by now". I do hope though that you accept that the points being raised refer to the guild, and not you personally. However your statement about "a complaints procedure this Guide would have been employed by a Tour Company" is quite dreadful. The guide may have been employed by a Tour Company but HE WAS CERTIFIED BY YOU. To try to wash your hands of responsibility on the basis of who paid the piper is disgraceful. What you should have said is something like - I have pm'd the complaining poster and I have established the identity of the guide concerned, and a full investigation will take place. Our findings will be made public, and if the allegation is proved to be correct then appropriate action will be taken. (I take it by the way that there were no men other than the guide on "that" tour). Your reference to the size and colour of badges is quite hilarious. I don't know how stupid you (the guild) think the rest of us are, but a badge is a badge. It's size, it's colour, it's shape, whether it has a big "pin" or a little pin is immaterial. It says Guild of Battlefield Guides; end of story. I was speaking to a guild member recently (I will at no point be mentioning any names, so don't bother to ask) and that member explained why they had ("had to") join and said that they thought that the membership fee to just get a badge was a nice little earner for the guild. I can quite see what they meant. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 Some quick points: The GOBG stand for improvement of standards of guiding in a service industry where there are mainly naive consumers who cannot distinguish the good from the bad. For this reason alone, then whatever else you think about them, they should be supported. The GBOG is an infant organisation searching for credibility and reputation. Like all such entities in their formative years they try to punch above their weight with reputation-boosting statements which are not well-thought out. The rest of us need to recognise this and be easy with it. No amount of 'professional' training will weed out the idiots. We all work with people who are very well 'qualified' but who cannot do the job. Why should battlefield guiding be any different? In a service industry issues of quality are best dealt with through recruitment, training, accreditation, and professional up-dating. Complaints procedures after the event are no real answer. Quality needs to be managed before the event, not during and after. If I was running the GBOG I would be inclined to throw my organisational lot in with The Institute of Tourist Guiding (see post #307). They have some degree of national recognition, they are well-networked, and have expertise as well as many other resources battlefield guides could draw upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 Some quick points:...... In a service industry issues of quality are best dealt with through recruitment, training, accreditation, and professional up-dating. Complaints procedures after the event are no real answer. Quality needs to be managed before the event, not during and after. Have to disagree here - if you have no feedback then how do you know how succesful and effective the recruitment and training is and on what do you base further training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 [*]No amount of 'professional' training will weed out the idiots. Very true, but customer feedback might. The battlefield tour company I often travel with hands out questionnaires at the end of every tour. Maybe guides who work independently could ask customers if they have a moment or two to fill in a short assessment if they so wish. I had to do such a thing during some teacher training once and it was very eye opening to some faults I'd not previously been aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 Squirrel: feedback is needed - but not just in the form of customer complaints. This is the worst form of feedback. It's expensive to deal with, it arrives too late to do anything much about it, and tour opertators don't know that it is representative. Every unhappy customer tells many other people - they don't simply complain to the company. Who else could give feedback? The tour operator boss could go out on the occasional trip, they could ask other guides to go along. They could provide programmed material to ensure consistency and validity - 'when you visit Tyne Cot make sure the following points are covered ... ' It's not rocket-science. In my limited experience the tour bus driver is a remarkably astute observer of how the guide is functioning. He gets to see a lot of guides in action, more so than anybody else. Sure he is no expert on military history, but he can see how the guide is going down with the party. So we need feedback from a number of sources.. But what happens to this feedback? This raises Judy's point. Customer feedback is useless unless it is acted upon. These forms are returned - but then what happens to them? Are they analysed, are problems identified and acted upon? Or are they left to moulder for a couple of months on the desk of some relatively junior member of staff before being filed in the wpb. An interesting question for the battlefield tour operators would be 'what changes have you made in the last five years to the recruitment, training, induction and coaching of your tour guides in response to issues raised in customer feedback?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 (edited) Squirrel: feedback is needed - but not just in the form of customer complaints. This is the worst form of feedback. It's expensive to deal with, it arrives too late to do anything much about it, and tour opertators don't know that it is representative. Every unhappy customer tells many other people - they don't simply complain to the company. Who else could give feedback? The tour operator boss could go out on the occasional trip, they could ask other guides to go along. They could provide programmed material to ensure consistency and validity - 'when you visit Tyne Cot make sure the following points are covered ... ' It's not rocket-science.In my limited experience the tour bus driver is a remarkably astute observer of how the guide is functioning. He gets to see a lot of guides in action, more so than anybody else. Sure he is no expert on military history, but he can see how the guide is going down with the party.So we need feedback from a number of sources..But what happens to this feedback? This raises Judy's point. Customer feedback is useless unless it is acted upon. These forms are returned - but then what happens to them? Are they analysed, are problems identified and acted upon? Or are they left to moulder for a couple of months on the desk of some relatively junior member of staff before being filed in the wpb.An interesting question for the battlefield tour operators would be 'what changes have you made in the last five years to the recruitment, training, induction and coaching of your tour guides in response to issues raised in customer feedback?' [comment edited] - all you are doing is illustrating is how valuable feed back is wasted or misused. I've had over 40 years of both running courses all over the world and conducting management consultancy and in all cases feedback has been vital but it has to be dome properly and it has to be acted upon. If, as your argument suggests, your attitude is "oh it's no real use" this quickly permeates to your customers who won't bother to do decent feed back - why should they waste their time? As for asking the coach driver what an absolutely unprofessional approach. If your battle field tour operators have made no real changes in response to customer raised feed back then they don't deserve to continue operating Edited 30 August , 2013 by Kate Wills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 TripAdvisor relies totally on customer feedback after the event, and is quite successful! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 23 July , 2013 Share Posted 23 July , 2013 BAD LIGHT STOPS PLAY Let's reconvene later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 3 February , 2023 Share Posted 3 February , 2023 (edited) What a turn up for the books - I find myself of the same opinion as TTM. That really doesn't happen that often. Edited 4 February , 2023 by Gareth Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now