Andrew Hesketh Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 I vote that you un-hide the postings and allow the matter to be discussed and settled between the members. No disrespect intended towards you Tom, but this forum isn't a democracy. Never has been. We have to accept all Mod calls. There will be occasions when we might not like or agree with them, but that's just tough. 99.9% of what they do goes unseen and makes the forum run as smoothly as it does. I didn't see the post, but I know that Mod's do not act in a knee-jerk way so there will be sensible reasons - not that they have to explain themselves anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCurragh Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 A reminder - this thread isn't actually in Skindles - so if we could (roughly) stay on topic please.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Clearly the GofBFGs has friends in the right places who are prepared to stifle criticism or questions as to the legitimacy of the modus operandi of the organisation and their "partner" organisations. A Closed Shop is a closed shop, and it clearly looks like that is what is being aimed for. Being forced to join an organisation (as the explained my last censored post) is not a legitimate way forward. Tom Curses Moriarty, our little scheme for the Guild to take over the world has been rumbled!ps the fiver's in the usual place. You know what to do next!! SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 One thing I would suggest on the GBG entry test is whether or not the aspirant knows the difference between the words interred and interned. I haven't checked to see if they are used interchangeably today but they weren't then. Might possibly make me check out to see if I'm going on a GBG led tour or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 One thing I would suggest on the GBG entry test is whether or not the aspirant knows the difference between the words interred and interned. I haven't checked to see if they are used interchangeably today but they weren't then. Might possibly make me check out to see if I'm going on a GBG led tour or not. Certainly are not today - at least not by any one who is at even barely semi literate. Not unless prisoners are buried in a tomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Certainly are not today - at least not by any one who is at even barely semi literate. Not unless prisoners are buried in a tomb. As I thought. Often incorrectly used so should be on the test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 I understand the poiint you are making salientguide, but shouldn't your sarcasm be aimed at the Guild, rather than Judy? The Guild (as I understand it) are attempting to bring a bring a professional approach to guiding, and if a fundamental element (such as correct spelling and grammar in their introductory material) is lacking, then that doesn't reflect well on the very professionalism the Guild seek to promote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 I understand the poiint you are making salientguide, but shouldn't your sarcasm be aimed at the Guild, rather than Judy? The Guild (as I understand it) are attempting to bring a bring a professional appraoch to guiding, and if a fundamental element (such as correct spelling and grammar in their introductory material) is lacking, then that doesn't reflect well on the very professionalism the Guild seek to promote. Ouch Kate, you can smack me next time you talk to the Birmingham Branch! And I,m sorry if it sounded sarcastic it wasnt meant as such. But the offer is literal show me wot and wear the offending section is and I,ll try and get it corrected. Nuff Sed? regards SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Goodness me, the reactions of some people. 'Nuff sed indeed' I merely asked if the words were used interchangeably these days - lots of words change in usage over time. If they are that's fine - but if not, then an organisation setting itself up as some sort of regulating body should ensure professional standards are met - shouldn't it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Goodness me, the reactions of some people. 'Nuff sed indeed' I merely asked if the words were used interchangeably these days - lots of words change in usage over time. If they are that's fine - but if not, then an organisation setting itself up as some sort of regulating body should ensure professional standards are met - shouldn't it??? Judy I stand admonished by Kate and your politeness. But in plain and correctly spelt (or is it spelled) English I dont understand the point of your post. Are you saying the Guild has used the incorrect version in its literature, if so please point out to me where. Unfortuneately I can't access the site at the moment to check it but its such a small error if so and it would only take one letter to alter the meaning. Should an organisation trying to set up on a subject in which you would think most people here would be interested ( rather than the vitriolic abuse one has to fend off on its behalf here) really be judged on what may be a simple spelling error? SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Judy I stand admonished by Kate and your politeness. But in plain and correctly spelt (or is it spelled) English I dont understand the point of your post. Are you saying the Guild has used the incorrect version in its literature, if so please point out to me where. Unfortuneately I can't access the site at the moment to check it but its such a small error if so and it would only take one letter to alter the meaning. Should an organisation trying to set up on a subject in which you would think most people here would be interested ( rather than the vitriolic abuse one has to fend off on its behalf here) really be judged on what may be a simple spelling error? SG SG, No I haven't seen any literature, nor do know if any of the guides I have been on tours with are members. No one has said they were and no one has worn a badge. All I do know is that these two words have often been (it seemed to my ear and understandiing) used incorrectly by some battlefield guides. Having said that, I do know that language changes and I try to keep up - hence my question, answered by Centurion. A bit tongue in cheek, I commented that I might even seek out a GBG badged guide myself if I knew they had to be asked about the meaning of these words in the 'test' - as an indication of professional standard. Of course not every aspect of grammar etc (nor spelling) will necessarily matter but it seems to me these are quite important words to get right in this subject area if professionalism is to be a goal. If it sounded as if this was a comment on the current GBG members or their accreditation, can I please blame my poor expression on the extreme heat! I would think it extremely unlikely that any guide I've been on tour with is a member and I've heard the words used incorrectly on more than a few occasions - which made me wonder if the meanings were now interchangeable in common usage ..Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCurragh Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 The forum is open within the rules. The post that was hidden broke the rules in my opinion. This thread has allowed much negative comment about the GBG. As for your Power Syndrome comment, please explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Does that make Tom a blue-nosed guide? Curious Pete I don't know what a blue-nosed guide is, so I couldn't possibly comment What it does "make me" though is quite able to spot an attempt to create a closed shop in the guiding industry. I also, by the way, refuse to believe that I am the only one to have realised (it is blatantly obvious) that the GofBFG's has tied itself in knots with this member / member's badge / badged guide situation which it has created, whereby their "qualified" guides (the minority) and their "unqualified guides" (the majority) all wear a badge - and the public and the world in general have not a clue that the majority of the "badged members" have simply paid a subscription and been given a badge. If the guild had had an iota of savvy when they set this up they would have had badges which showed "qualified guide" and then badges which showed "trainee guide", "apprentice guide", whatever. Instead they have created (deliberately ?) a completely confused situation whereby the "badged guide" or "wearer of a badge guide" (aka "member") means absolutely nothing to the public or the industry. The set-up which has been created by guild is deeply flawed, and what is beginning more and more to look like an attempt to strangle diversity in the industry is, at least, regrettable. I stand by the content of my deleted post, and would be quite content to see it reposted, along with the response to it which was also deleted. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCurragh Posted 19 July , 2013 Share Posted 19 July , 2013 Indeed - let's move on - and to hopefully make the point for the last time, there is plenty of criticism of and support for the Guild in this thread and the discussion is anything but "one-sided" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 What it does "make me" though is quite able to spot an attempt to create a closed shop in the guiding industry. I also, by the way, refuse to believe that I am the only one to have realised (it is blatantly obvious) that the GofBFG's has tied itself in knots with this member / member's badge / badged guide situation which it has created, whereby their "qualified" guides (the minority) and their "unqualified guides" (the majority) all wear a badge - and the public and the world in general have not a clue that the majority of the "badged members" have simply paid a subscription and been given a badge. Well I did not know about the 'qualified' and 'unqualified guides'. I am interested in this topic because I am a customer and I have spent (and will continue to do so while I can) a good deal of my hard earned retirement savings on battlefield tours. ....Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 As a customer I have learned a great deal - which I'm always pleased to do before putting my hand in my pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 Well I did not know about the 'qualified' and 'unqualified guides'. I am interested in this topic because I am a customer and I have spent (and will continue to do so while I can) a good deal of my hard earned retirement savings on battlefield tours. ....Judy Judy, It's not a question of 'qualified' and 'unqualified'. Anyone who is a guide or has an interest in becoming a guide may choose to join the IGBG. They may if they choose wear the member's pin which is about 1" high. If they choose to put themselves through the validation process to become a 'Badged Guide' they have simply undergone a validation of 9 assignments against required outcomes pitched at about NVQ 3 level. There are some very good guides out there. Some are IGBG members and some are not. As a customer you should simply try to go with the tour/tour company/guide that suits you best. I could say more but agree with Centurion above. Alison IGBG Badge 36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 Judy, It's not a question of 'qualified' and 'unqualified'. Anyone who is a guide or has an interest in becoming a guide may choose to join the IGBG. They may if they choose wear the member's pin which is about 1" high. If they choose to put themselves through the validation process to become a 'Badged Guide' they have simply undergone a validation of 9 assignments against required outcomes pitched at about NVQ 3 level. There are some very good guides out there. Some are IGBG members and some are not. As a customer you should simply try to go with the tour/tour company/guide that suits you best. I could say more but agree with Centurion above. Alison IGBG Badge 36 Thank you Alison for clarification. Yes, I said some posts ago that I am much more selective about choosing a guide these days and do try to read as much as I can about them - their publications, reviews etc. Attitudes in this thread have been as enlightening as 'factual' information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 I spoke recently with a well respected guide, a GBG member who went through the validation process some years ago. He has run his own battlefield touring business for over 20 years. He seemed genuinely surprised when I asked him who or what the Guild validation process was professionally recognised by and didn't have an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 I think that's the essential point. Any professional organisation should have standards that those members are expected to observe. I have refrained from this thread after reading the early exchanges, when it seemed apparent that the "badge" was purchasable by simply becoming a member without there being a requirement to show some standard of knowledge (and perhaps language) for guiding tourists around the battlefields. Without this thread, I (and no doubt many unsuspecting tourists) would have chosen a badged guide from this Guild, expecting them to be sufficiently knowledgeable to add to to the understanding of events, actions and locations of the WW1 fighting. It now seems that there is no such basic requirement, simply a membership fee. There is no guarantee that these badge guides are the best, simply that they have paid a "joining fee" and that other, more expert guides, may be around who are not "badged". It therefore seems to me that the Belgian and French governments should become involved in regulating any organisation which is (in some respects) misleading people to the quality of those guides. I'd want there to be some form of "The Knowledge" as there is for taxi drivers in London. I'll now let you get back to your mudslinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 I think that is a misinterpretation, KevinBattle, but as Tom T-M has pointed out it is one that stems from the way the IGBG do things. There is the "badged guide", who has passed the 9 stages described above. 59 of them are listed on the Guild's website, along with a biography of each. And there is a guide who may not yet taken have taken any steps other than to have been accepted as a member of the Guild - and who is issued with a badge (the Guild describes this as a pin) to show it. They are not described as "badged guides". The website also lists those members who are somewhere along the validating process: http://www.gbg-international.com/whos_validating.htm'>http://www.gbg-international.com/whos_validating.htm Physically the two badges are similar-ish but not the same. The both appear on the home page of http://www.gbg-international.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 20 July , 2013 Share Posted 20 July , 2013 ... It's not a question of 'qualified' and 'unqualified'. ... I'm sorry Alison but that is either naive, or disingenuous. Calling one of your badges a "pin" really is clutching at straws. The public, the tour industry, and uncle Tom Cobley and all, see a badge (call it a "label" if you want) which says GofBFGs. They have no idea whether the wearer is "fully qualified" or has simply paid a subscription. Ditto with non GofBFGs websites which note that guides are "members" of the guild - "member" meaning what - "qualified", or paid a subscription ? I have to point you back to post #286. Do you have a constructive answer to the core issues in post #286 ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim_Grundy Posted 21 July , 2013 Share Posted 21 July , 2013 So, to sum up.... An organisation, the membership of which is not exclusive, that no-one is obliged to join, that has no power to prevent anyone else running their own tours, that has some nice and less nice people in it (unlike any other group), that might have some problem with the words 'interned' & 'interred', etc., etc. warrants a dozen pages of argument here. Really? Give me strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Posted 21 July , 2013 Share Posted 21 July , 2013 Tom. very long time since anyone has called me naive or disingenuous but at least that is better than your earlier post which I was able to read and considered totally uncalled for. There is no attempt at a closed shop. Nor do we call IGBG members qualified or unqualified because that is not an accurate description. We are not a training organisation. all Guild members are guides - some occasional, some pert-time and the lucky few attempting to earn a living from it. What the founders, all experienced and well-thought of guides in their fields, set out to do was to try to raise standards of knowledge and guiding amongst battlefield guides. I cannot see why you should be so opposed to raising standards in a field that you appear to be interested in. I can only think that all your tours are perfect in every way and you receive glowing and honest feedback after them. Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Posted 21 July , 2013 Share Posted 21 July , 2013 Dear all, I apologise for perpetuating this thread with my previous post but felt I had to reply to a personal comment on myself. I'm now totally bored with it all so am off to look for sticky budgies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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