Guild of Battlefield Guides

[Petroc]

Dear all, I have recently joined the above-named society for entirely personal reasons, thus I trust that Forum Moderators will not remove this post as any kind of 'plug' or advert for the GBG; but I am aware of the previous views that have been recorded on the Forum in the past with regard to this Society and would be interested to know if any members' attitudes had changed/or been confirmed by the development or enhancement of the organisation

[Ken Lees]

What previous views are you referring to?

[Petroc]

Ken, see for example the posted topic entitled 'battlefield touring' in the same section from a couple of years ago

[Guest exuser1]

After visiting their web site ,which does not seem to be updated very well , my issue is they seem to be pushing themselves as a regulating body ,with a lot of self importance .

After looking at the list of guides my first thought is not who is on the list, but who's not on it ? the big names seem to be missing .

I also find it quite amusing the way you see the names of guides in cemetery registers with their badge number alongside .

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... a lot of self importance . ... I also find it quite amusing the way you see the names of guides in cemetery registers with their badge number alongside .

Quite.

Of course there are a lot of good types who have chosen to join the club, but there is a great air of the organisation having appointed itself as the one and only authority in the field. As you say, it is interesting to note who's missing.

Tom

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[Petroc]

Point taken and accepted. It is my honest belief that the Guild is trying to get away from that exclusivity that perhaps clouded its beginnings so it become more of the 'sharing' organisation that Richard H

[Petroc]

BAD PC!!!!! Holmes and others perceived;

[Guest exuser1]

Petroc, yes it i feel needs to change , i noted lots of ex military types and ex police on the list ,these days i feel not every one wants a version of a Staff College outing , one thing i have noted is that it seems that the idea is if you are in the guild and a baged guide then it almost gaurantees you work as a guide ?

It comes across as that ex officers club which i feel puts off a lot of people .

[Mark Hone]

I enquired about joining the Guild when it first started but was put off for some of the reasons given above. It reminded me a bit of Mensa! I might give it another go.

[Andy Wade]

Having been on a photographic tour with one of these chaps from the GBG I can honestly say that he never came across as self important, nor did the tour have the feel of being on a military exercise. In fact he was informative and helpful and answered a lot of questions along the way and was keen to share his knowledge with us. He also took the time to read out a poem and a story about one man for every cemetery we visited and we all stood around the grave and listened to the story he told about the man buried in front of us. All in all, highly recommended.

I can particularly recall standing alone with him on top of the hill next to the Vimy memorial (which was under refurbishment at the time) he stood there and pointed out features and described the unfolding of one of the battles in the valley below and brought it to life in front of us.

Yes, I know it sounds like I'm 'waxing lyrical' a bit, but he was very good at what he did.

[Petroc]

Thanks for the replies, the perceptions of the Guild as it may have been in the past do, as I suspected, persist to a degree, but it is gratifying to see that its image is changing. I do not profess to have anything like the knowledge that many members of the Forum have with regard to the Western Front battlefields, in fact my own knowledge (even after 16 plus trips) is rudimentary (I remember being approached by a very enthusiastic Welshman at the 38th Divisional Memorial a couple of years ago, asking me if I had finally found the location of '(some trench-map-reference)....I looked at him with a total lack of any idea of the point to which he was referring, and told him politely that I had never heard of it....and I will always bow to that level of intimate knowledge of an area, unit, or action that so many people and Members of this Forum actually have; as I said in the initial post, I joined the society for entirely personal reasons, if only to be 'legitimised' beyond my old traditional 'friends and friends-of-friends' trips to the battlefields Andy

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I remember being approached by a very enthusiastic Welshman at the 38th Divisional Memorial a couple of years ago, asking me if I had finally found the location of '(some trench-map-reference)....I looked at him with a total lack of any idea of the point to which he was referring, and told him politely that I had never heard of it....

I joined the society for entirely personal reasons, if only to be 'legitimised' beyond my old traditional 'friends and friends-of-friends' trips to the battlefields

Andy - ref the first point - you may have had the misfortune to encounter the very worst form of battlefield bore; the person who knows every in and out of the bottom left hand corner of that field over there because that is the one and only WW1 location that they know anything at all about. Ask them where Mons is and why it was significant in 1914, or where tanks were first used, or ..., or ..., or ..., or ..., and they quite probably wont have a clue. Guiding a group with a "bottom left hand corner of that field over there" "expert" in it can be a nightmare.

Joining something just to (hopefully) boost your street cred is interesting.

Tom

3BM

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[Guest exuser1]

One point you raise is that joining the guild in some way "legitimised" in some way your ability to either explore the battlefields or escort other visitors , how does joining the guild do that ? they are not an official body with recognised qualifications , the guild would like to think that they are but in reality they are a club that has dinners once a year and do come across has a bit puffed up .

[Alan Tucker]

I once toyed with the idea of setting up the "Guild of Battlefield Guides who taught History in Comprehensive Schools for over 30 years" but decided that Bruce Hubbard and myself were under-qualified.

[salientguide]

One point you raise is that joining the guild in some way "legitimised" in some way your ability to either explore the battlefields or escort other visitors , how does joining the guild do that ? they are not an official body with recognised qualifications , the guild would like to think that they are but in reality they are a club that has dinners once a year and do come across has a bit puffed up .

Oh dear ,havent looked for a week so missed the start of this but would have let it run as it has for a while. For obvious reasons, see below I have battled here on the Forum in support of the Guild over a number of years. .I am aware of its imperfections and also the wrong perception many have on it here. The Guild was founded by members of the Guiding fraternity (and some may want to list the names of those who aren,t members as I am not sure what we should imply from that. I would have thought the far greater list of names of members and those associated with Guild activities were equally as long)and if someone of such standing as Richard Holmes could have seen the need for it and now Professor Gary Sheffield taking on the role of president ( heard of them anybody?) then such as that should give a clue as to its credentials.

Why are we so proud of the badge ..because it takes a lot of time commitment and developing expertise to be assessed by ones peers, which is what the process is, and deliver nine different talks, presentataions and assignmentsand acheive a pass mark in each,. But it is just that, it does not set itself up to be the arbiter of all standards, Most opposition comes from already established guides who do a great job but feel that is being questioned by a self important body, that is not the case. And yes there is an annual dinner but that is part of the Guild annual weekend with talks and lectures on different periods and aspects of military history. the Guild also organises several weekends each year for members and guests visiting and exploring sites in Britain and abroad.

As to a military club, there was some perception, at first of an officers club, perhaps correctly. All I can say is as a person of no military background or service, just an interest in history and guiding I found nothing but help and friendliness within the Guild. As is often the case you get back what you put into it.So a bit more than just a puffed up dining club.

Just out of interest the Guild is involved in guiding legislative matters. There has been some discussion within the EU over such regulation, why not they seem to regulate everything else. It has been mooted that professional practice at some time in the future may have a requirement to demonstrate some siort of competance. The Badge, not just ordinary membership of the Guild was one item mentioned as demonstrating such competance.

Any way enough, let the anti-Guild rhetoric roll, cheers Salientguide

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... it does not set itself up to be the arbiter of all standards, Most opposition comes from already established guides who do a great job but feel that is being questioned by a self important body, ...

Health issues forced me to pull out of paid guiding some years ago, so I don't have an axe to grind here. It should also be quite clear that any views that I may have are based not on direct first-hand knowledge but on what I am told by friends and aquaintances who are members of the guild (both "badged", and "ordinary plebs"); guides who are not members of the guild, and (I will not be specific) plebs turned down for badging.

I can see the point of the guild having been formed, but on the other hand the situation has uncomfortable similarities with the problems which have beset British ski instructors and other ski industry workers in Europe for years - that situation having worsened during the 2012-13 season. "The Club" want it all run their way, and will do whatever to keep everybody else in a (seemingly) second rate position.

Two points are particularly relevant. Firstly, there are well established and very well thought of battlefield guides who simply do not want to be "regulated" or put upon by some self-appointed organisation. Secondly, and more worryingly, there are persistent rumblings of "if your face fits", or if you are a mate of xxx, then you are in, and if you aren't, then you aren't ("in"). I have to say that having personal knowledge of some of the personalities involved, I can quite well believe the latter to be the case.

Tom

8/6-11.50.CEST

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[Sly]

Hello,

I have nothing against or for the Guild but apart of the historical aspect of the Guild , which I don't doubt the quality and the knowledge of the members, knowing personnaly some of them, I am interested in the legislative matters of the Guild. I am wondering how and why the fact to own the pin of this association could give you the right to work as a guide in another country ?

Each country has his own work legislation: the people living and working as a guide in France are submit to the french legislation (which is becoming very strict now !), those living in Belgium to the belgian legislation, etc...

I don't see any link between the Guild and any other official foreign organisation ?

Why do I have the impression that some members the guild could feel "exempted " of all the legislative matters just by wearing a pin ?

Sly

[chrislock]

As one of several registered (BTV) tax paying, insured, Belgian ID card carrying professional guides, living and working in Belgium today, I also would be be most keen to hear more on how this proposed legislation will work? Belgian politics is most complicated and I for one would love to hear more on how the GBG is driving this in Belgium, but more importantly, since when did the Guild discuss these issues with the competent guides who reside and work here?? What gives you the right to instigate this when you clearly have not spoken with all of the professional guides in situ over here? Perhaps the GBG will do just that or should I not hold my breath whilst waiting? The GBG has today developed a reputation of an elitist old boys club and for that, the GBG has a problem!!

[ypresman]

Just out of interest the Guild is involved in guiding legislative matters. There has been some discussion within the EU over such regulation, why not they seem to regulate everything else. It has been mooted that professional practice at some time in the future may have a requirement to demonstrate some siort of competance. The Badge, not just ordinary membership of the Guild was one item mentioned as demonstrating such competance.

Any way enough, let the anti-Guild rhetoric roll, cheers Salientguide

Reminds me of another quote:

" Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?" The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky...try to take over the world!"

Who is going to implement this?! I think the Guild needs to get its own house in order before total World Domination!! I am one of those established Guides who oppose the Guild and its self important body. Twice last year when I was Guiding I had two 'Guides' come up to me asking where Tyne Cot cemetery was. We were less than a mile away on both occassions. They were wearing the badges of ordinary members of the Guild but my passengers still associated them with the Guild itself.

Chris Lock has it spot on in what he says.

[chrislock]

Thank you Ypresman and I agree. I also once enquired on Guild membership but when informed that I would have to be proposed to be admitted rather than accepted on my own capabilities then the subject ended there. What and who gives the GBG the right to speak on behalf of us legally in place guides working the Salient and elsewhere? There are some superb British, Flemish, Aussie, French and from elsewhere guides working here who are not members of this self governing organization. It saddens me to hear of this stuff when some of your members in certain instances cannot work out where on earth Tyne Cot or Shrewsbury Forest is located as I also have also recently experienced! We local guides fill a niche and no we do not know everything on every conflict from 1066 - 2013 but we do specialise on the battlefields where we live and work. Our trip advisor and credits revealed on our company web sites confirm this. I accept we are all not perfect but as a rule, I personally have much faith in the hard working and resident guides and also the many other professional visiting guides who are not GBG members.

[Chris_Baker]

I like the idea very much. It is surely no bad thing to have some form of professional accreditation. As many others will have experienced I am sure, I have eavesdropped on many battlefield guides who were uninformed and misinforming - it does the "industry" no good at all and goodness knows what the "tourists" learned from it. Funnily enough the worst I heard were in Normandy rather than on the WW1 battlefields but I have no doubt at all that similar cases have existed. It is also no bad thing that a guide should have some professional standards in organisation, planning, response to emergencies etc.

So self-governing or not, a well structured and moderated accreditation programme can only be good, in my view. It should be something that all professional guides should strive for and should be able to benefit from. Whether that accreditation should be, let alone must be, from the GBG is open to debate.

I am curious about salientguide's comments on the Guild being involved in discussing legislation. I presume that would simply be in an advisory capacity. Are you able to tell us more, salientguide?

[Jack Sheldon]

Chris has just posted more or less what I was going to say. There are good guides and bad guides and I have witnessed both in action along the Western Front. I am not a member of the GBG, nor have I any intention of joining because I only guide occasionally and only then if a group specifically wishes to tap into my particular area of expertise. That said, I can see nothing wrong with an honest attempt to ensure that guides are not only knowledgeable, but able to put across accurate information tailored to the needs of each group. For a group seeking a guide it is, as in so many other aspects of life, a case of caveat emptor. If I had no previous knowledge of the battlefields, I suspect that I should tend to turn to a recognised tour company or to somebody who has demonstrated to his peers that he is worth his fee. Jack

[Staffsyeoman]

Having been on a tour organised for a regimental association that was supposed to be tailored to us and ended up being:

a. 'bog standard' tour of the Somme with passing relevance to us

b. More reflective of the lead guide's obsession with Albert Ball (No, were not RFC or Sherwood Foresters historians)

c. In places just plain wrong

... some quality control is not to be sniffed at. I have heard dread tales from some of the tour companies too.

[nick ward408]

Hi all,

I must admit I have been following this 'bun fight' with a smile on face as I too am a proud member of the GBG and although I myself have crossed the odd sword with the guild I am fully supportive of their aims and goals and they are moving in the RIGHT direction. Next time you see me on the WF drop in for a chat.

Nick Ward WW1''TOMMY''RESEARCH

[salientguide]

Any way enough, let the anti-Guild rhetoric roll, cheers Salientguide

Oh dear, well certainly not disappointed by the usual suspects!

Chris B and all sorry may have given the wrong impression re the EU thing. The Guild is certainly NOT proposing or driving any such changes, but it was reported back to members by our professional liason representative that such discussions were occuring originating from somewhere within the EU, nothing more than that. That in the context of the much wider tourism view not specifically battlefield guiding. But it is just the sort of thing one can see the EU proposing at some point that if one offers a professional service, thankfully I am purely amateur and occasional guide,then one should be able to demonstrate not only some competance at that but knowledge of associated safety and legislative matters etc.How that proof may be demonstrated is not known but obviously some accreditation from what may recognised as a reputable body would be a starting point.

As I,ve said before membership of the Guild is not for everyone. There is absolutely no effort to co-erce anyone to join or belittle their work or contribution to guiding. It is just rather sad that by being so vehemently blinkered into the advantage of joining in with like minded colleagues they miss out on the good company and increased knowledge and experience that stems from such a fraternity.

Why would one not wish to inter act with colleagues of the same interest and follow the aims of such an organisation to maintain and improve standards?

Paul Blenkinsop the bald headed pottery expert and biker on Time Team once said on a tribute programme to the programme

"Time Team-just mention them to established archaeologists, --stand well back and watch them go!"

Perhaps the same with the Guild of Battlefield Guides.

And Chris L I would be honoured to propose you any day .

Regards all SG