trajan Posted 18 April , 2015 Share Posted 18 April , 2015 On 18/04/2015 at 00:17, 4thGordons said: So were the Yeomanry equipped with full length rifles? if not -- what on earth were all these P1888s with yeomanry markings attached to? There were "Lee Speed" (Commercial) carbines (see bottom here) that were fitted with bayonet bars but did the yeomanry buy those? Seems unlikely. so why all these IY bayonets? Saturday afternoons are about the only time I can look through GWF for more than 5 minutes w/o being disturbed (small flat, two active nippers...- and now ma-in-law here for 15 days...) and I found this thread from earlier times - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197908&page=1 There is some god stuff there from Hansard on the post SMLE situation re: Yeomanry units (including mistaken but continued use of the term "Imperial Yeomanry"), but nothing that I noticed on what was the case before 1907 - except for JSott's perceptive comment at post no.4 on how as territorials, "presumably they may also have been issued with MLEs/CLLEs (and P1888 bayonets) during the early part of the war; and indeed retained these until 1917..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 18 April , 2015 Share Posted 18 April , 2015 MRDK1---I'm possibly inching closer to an understanding of the differences between blueing & browning processes, but as a chemist in a former life I would like to know the details. Would you be able to PM the instructions to armourers (1912 version), only if it is convenient ? Trajan---I must be going feeble-minded ! I must be going feeble-minded ! Could not do this last night for my reply to #171 by Michael...... Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDK1 Posted 18 April , 2015 Share Posted 18 April , 2015 I hope this helps. The browning process is described in detail in instructions for armourer 1912. The first step was to mix the browning solution using a specified amount of ingredients. Three pints are sufficient for browning 100 stand of arms, and 1 pints per 100, sword-bayonets, pattern 1888, Mark III, and pattern 1903 and 1906 sword-bayonets:- Browning Mixture. Rain, water 3 pints. Acid, nitric 2½ oz. Steel, tincture of 4¾ oz. Wine, spirits, methylated 2 oz. The ingredients required for the browning mixture will be mixed together by the armourer-serjeant in the order shown above directly they are drawn from store. Officers commanding and army ordnance officers will caution armourer-serjeants against keeping the ingredients packed in separate bottles, as danger from fire is likely to arise from the nitric acid if it is spilled before being mixed with the other ingredients. If the armourer-serjeant has a larger quantity of ingredients than he actually requires for the arms he has to brown, he will at once return the surplus into the quartermaster’s store. Ingredients for browning mixture should be measured by fluid measures as follow:- 60 minims = 1 deam. 8 drams = 1 oz. 20 ozs = 1 pint. SWORD-BAYONETS, AND LOCKETS AND CHAPES OF SWORD BAYONETS SCABBARDS. 1st Day. Strip the grips, grip screws and nuts, and bolts, nuts, and springs from the sword-bayonets, and the lockets and chapes from the scabbards. Boil the sword-bayonets and the lockets and chapes in strong solution of soda and water long enough to remove the grease. Then wash them clean in warm water, dip in hot water, and coat the crosspiece, tang, pommel, and the blade of sword–bayonets ⅜-inch below crosspiece and the lockets and chapes whilst hot with the mixture; rub the same well in, and let the coated parts stand for three or four hours; then whilst cold coat again with the mixture, and put them in the drying-room for the night. 2nd Day. Boil for 20 minutes in clean water, let them stand in a dry place to cool, scratch off with wire card, then dip the parts in hot water, and coat whilst hot with mixture; let them stand an hour in a dry place, then coat whilst cold with the mixture, and, when dry, boil for about 20 minutes, wipe clean with wet cloths, and coat whilst hot with the mixture; let them stand in a dry place an hour, then coat whilst cold with the mixture, and, when dry boil for about 20 minutes, then wipe clean, scratch lightly, and oil; clean off the browning from the blade, leaving a strip ⅜-in, wide all around below the crosspiece, and assemble the grips†; the bolt, bolt nut, grip screws, and nuts to be oil blacked. NOTE.-In all cases where instructions are to boil sword-bayonets , the whole and not only the part coated with browning mixture is to be submerged. This will prevent the blade getting rusty in the process. After browning, the interior of lockets and chapes will be wiped clean and oiled to prevent the formation of rust and the springs of the locket will also be oiled. On re-assembling to the scabbard the oil will be removed to permit of the proper fixing of the glue. † The underside and ends of the grips should be coated with “composition preserving arms” before assembling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDK1 Posted 18 April , 2015 Share Posted 18 April , 2015 The actual copy of the instruction sits in my shed. I should naturally be pattern 1907 bayonets and not 1906:)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 April , 2015 Share Posted 18 April , 2015 ... Trajan---I must be going feeble-minded ! I must be going feeble-minded ! Could not do this last night for my reply to #171 by Michael...... I know the feeling... I hope this helps. ... The actual copy of the instruction sits in my shed. I should naturally be pattern 1907 bayonets and not 1906:)! MRKD, I think I can safely say on behalf of many - thanks for this and the earlier contributions! Time for you to get out of the shell (shed?!) and tell us more as you clearly have the grasp of these processes, and also of P.1888 markings! Like many on GWF, I have [some of] the 'bookish learnin' but it is invaluable to have the proper referenced detail.. As for mistakes in typing? 1906 against 1907? Don't worry, it does happen... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 October , 2015 Share Posted 28 October , 2015 Well, here is the latest addition to the fold, an 8/91 Mk I 2nd type, pommel marked "3 A & S H", so no prizes for guessing the 3rd Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders... 'Serial' number was originally "415" or "417", but corrected / altered to "414", and note the "M" at the top of the pommel, which I like to think is a reminder, a memento mori as it were, of the militia origin of the 3rd A & S H... Nice set of 're-issue' markings, including two "B" and one "BR" inspections on the ricasso, with another "BR" on the tang, all of which I assume to be Birmingham but do correct me if I am wrong. I think the 're-issues' are: '96, '99(?), 00(?), '03, and '06 - but again happy to be corrected by those with better eyesight and knowledge of these! Large photographs, so a second post to come... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 October , 2015 Share Posted 28 October , 2015 And last ones... showing the Argyll marking and the tang marks ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 28 October , 2015 Share Posted 28 October , 2015 Julian, There was a programme on BBC TV the other night, featuring the Duke of Atholl's 'private army', the Atholl Highlanders on their annual parade, proudly bearing their CLLE Lee-Enfield rifles all fitted with P1888's. So almost certainly the last on active 'service'. Wonder if these are unit marked to the Atholl Highlanders? Now there is a rarity! Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 October , 2015 Share Posted 28 October , 2015 Finally, this bayonet is marked 5GR, for the 5th Gloucestershire battalion, which landed in France in March 1915. The pommel also has some crossed out markings to either the Coldstream guards or Grenadier guards (which I'm yet to unravel). I'm still researching what this battalion did in 1915, but I understand that they suffered heavy losses at at the Somme, assaulting the Quadrilateral on 1 July, and were also involved in the battle of Bazentin Ridge, Pozieres Ridge and at the Ancre. Jonathan, looking back on things on this thread - did you ever work out that other marking? It seems an odd one - on the angle and not on the pommel, but it has been crossed off while the pommel marking remains intact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 October , 2015 Share Posted 29 October , 2015 Searching around, as one does, looking for 'BR' inspection markings in this case, and I found this old locked thread on P.1888's at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151202&page=1 At post no. 15, SS shows one of his examples, a 4/94 Sanderson, which does not have the 'BR' mark, but does have several 'B' marks, and, more interestingly, a set of 'reissue' marks that are close to the one displayed here, namely (on SS's examples): 96, '99, '02 and an '05. So two to match mine, i.e., '96, and '99; one 'missing', 00(?), and two just a year later, so '03, and '06... Now, where IS that thread on these 're-issue' dates... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 31 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Hi Trajan No never got to the bottom of that. I think the CG / GG marking was a previous marking which was removed (I see quite a few unit markings on P88s with a vertical axis), but the marking just wasn't clear enough to work out if it was a C or G... I have picked up a few more P88s marked to territorial service battalions - Ill pop up photos soon. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 31 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Plus I was meaning to say (before I was hauled off to take my son to the beach) - the A&S H marking on your P88 is really nice. And probably quite early given the "M" marking too. From my experience Ive found that unit markings to the English and Scottish regiments are found much more readily than the Welsh / Irish regiments. No idea why that is though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Plus I was meaning to say (before I was hauled off to take my son to the beach) - the A&S H marking on your P88 is really nice. And probably quite early given the "M" marking too. From my experience Ive found that unit markings to the English and Scottish regiments are found much more readily than the Welsh / Irish regiments. No idea why that is though... Of course, summer for you... Over here we are still on summer time as the clocks do not go back until November 8th - and its cold, and its a Saturday, and I have to take my boys to football... But, I digress - thanks for the comments on the marking - actually, I have taken a leaf out of your book, and now that I have a fair few P.1888's (and 1903's and 1907's), I am trying to concentrate on unit-marked ones... This one is nice and clear showing that it did not get around much (well, the 3rd Bat; was a home-service one, so not unexpected), and I would like to think the 'M' is for 'Militia', but who knows? That aside, even taking into account the apparently greater number of English and Scottish units, it does seem odd that Welsh and Irish unit-marked one are so scarce. It is a pity that the erased mark on that other P,1888 cannot be read - from my very limited experience it is in a strange place. Also, being defaced suggests it pre-dates the nice clear pommel mark, which makes it even odder to be in that particular spot. Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 31 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Yes I definitely think unit-marked bayonets are the way to go - the markings give another avenue of research which i find fascinating (especially when its possible that a certain bayonet was used during a particular battle etc). "M" is definitely Militia - my understanding is that on these bayonets where there is a mark in that position the M is Militia, V is volunteer, Y is yeomanry and R is reserve. Cheers, J PS. You've inspired me to dig out that bayonet and have another look at the markings. Ill report back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2015 Here are a few more P88s from my collection that I thought might be of interest. The first is marked to the 4th Royal Highlanders (Black Watch). This territorial battalion was drawn from Dundee and in 1915 was involved in the battles of Neuve Chapelle, Festubert and Loos. At Loos the battalion suffered very heavy losses - 19 of 20 officers killed or wounded and 230 of 420 other ranks killed or wounded. I can only imagine the effects of these losses would have been devastating to Dundee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2015 The second P88 is marked to the 7th battalion of the West Yorkshire regiment (Leeds Rifles) - another territorial battalion. The unit markings have been cancelled at some point, however interestingly the bayonet shows what seems to be a '16 reissue marking (which is interesting given that the common thinking is that P88s were being phased out at this point). I'm still researching this battalion's history however my understanding is that it had a peripheral role in the battle of Aubers Ridge, was involved in the fighting at 2nd Ypres and was also involved in the fighting at at the Schwaben Redoubt on 1 July 1916 and the following days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolyboy11 Posted 27 November , 2015 Share Posted 27 November , 2015 Interesting that 1916 date. As you suggest .... perhaps they were still on issue to Territorials. I have one by Sanderson 2/01 to the 5th Battalion Lincolnshires. 5 LIN. 979. (cancelled as per yours), also showing a 1916 inspection. Another example though... Enfield 3/00, 5. LIN. 738. (not cancelled) with no re-issue/inspection marks. Perhaps the 1916 inspection was added when they were handed in, regimentals struck through and put back into store?? Rolyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Perhaps the 1916 inspection was added when they were handed in, regimentals struck through and put back into store?? I think that suggestion could be on the money. I have thought likewise based on observations of similarly marked bayonets. My marked out Naval issue P'88 also has a '16 inspection. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 28 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Thanks guys, thats very interesting. I don't think I have any other examples with a similar issue / withdrawal mark but it does sound like a very plausible theory. I always remember that the first bayonet I ever bought was a relic P07 from a guy in Belgium who had piles of relic bayonets which he said had been purchased from local farmers and from farmers in the Somme area. Over half of the relic bayonets he had were P88s, which suggests (along with the photographic evidence) that the P88s were in fairly widespread use by territorials in the first few years of the war. Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Nope, none of mine done that way... May be coincidental, and probably is, but all of mine bar one are Turkish buys... No serious weight to be placed on that observation though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 28 November , 2015 Share Posted 28 November , 2015 Thought I'd put up the pictures of my bayonet marked to the Shropshire Imperial Yeomanry as IY got a mention above. I'm from Shropshire and so far this is the only Shropshire marked bayonet I have found. Nothing for the KSLI (King's Shropshire Light Infantry) yet. Also has the Sold out of Service mark to the County Cadets - I believe that is what it is. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 29 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2015 Hi Tony Very nice bayonet with some interesting markings. The IY marking is pre-WW1 but obviously could have been used during the war as well. The CC marking is interesting - your suggestion sounds plausible, but I note that in Michael Rose's recent book on P88s this marking is referred to as meaning not known. Did you have a source for the county cadets theory? Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 November , 2015 Share Posted 29 November , 2015 Thought I'd put up the pictures of my bayonet marked to the Shropshire Imperial Yeomanry as IY got a mention above. I'm from Shropshire and so far this is the only Shropshire marked bayonet I have found. Nothing for the KSLI (King's Shropshire Light Infantry) yet. Also has the Sold out of Service mark to the County Cadets - I believe that is what it is. Cheers, Tony Tony, I am not aware of any stand alone C.C. mark for any British Regiment, other than when used in conjunction with other letters and numbers, i.e. V / 1. C.C. 2. WK. for 1st Cadet Corps attached to 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment. There are however Colonial markings consisting of a stand alone C.C. The Canadians used C.C. as the mark for their ' Cadet Corps '. The South Africans for ' Cape Colony ', and the Indians for ' Camel Corps '. Perhaps your bayonet has a connection to one of these ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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