Khaki Posted 3 August , 2014 Share Posted 3 August , 2014 Thanks Sommewalker, very interesting rifle, apart from SA history, any particular provenance or unit markings? regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 No unit markings. The rifle has a Crowned V.R. over 1893, Sparkbrook. The bolt and bolt cover now on it are replacements. The rifle is lightly rusted overall. I have had it since the mid-Eighties and the vendor brought it from South Africa having bought it from a farmer. The story was that it was used as a temporary grave marker- hence the missing original bolt. The deep line across the butt is thought to be from contact with a wagon wheel. Everything is just speculation except the bullet strikes. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 That's a very interesting history. thank you. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULEVE Posted 15 August , 2014 Share Posted 15 August , 2014 Thought I would add mt 1888 to this great thread .It is a Sanderson produced blade Jan 1894 with an excellent enfield teardrop scabbard ,It has issue date of march 1899 to the 2nd Wiltshire regiment .The date corresponds with the embarkation date of the Regiment sailing to Gallipoli . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULEVE Posted 15 August , 2014 Share Posted 15 August , 2014 a few more of mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2014 Share Posted 16 August , 2014 That's a very nice piece! As you probably know, the back-to-back RR indicates 'Reduced' status, indicating it has been taken out of in-field use for, e.g., bayonet training purposes - for a similar marked one see e.g.: http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/fullsize/UK%20full/UK%201888%20RR%20ricasso%20stamp.jpg Any chance of a photograph of the frogstud marking? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2014 Share Posted 16 August , 2014 Oh, forget to add... IIRC, officially the marking for the Wiltshire regiment was WILTS, but there are quite a few UK bayonets around with markings that don't conform to the regulations, as with a 1907 I know of marked BRK for the Berkshire Regiment when it should be BKS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 16 August , 2014 Share Posted 16 August , 2014 Hi Trajan, As far as I know the post 1881 standard markings are WTS for Wiltshire and BRK for Berkshire. I suspect WILTS would be a 1930's marking as there seems to have been a change in abbreviations then to more readily understandardable ones. Whereas there are lists for the post 1881ones, I have not seen a definitively list for the 30's ones. I got a bayonet marked N STAF which opened my eyes to the above as I could not understand why it was not N STF. Now if I see a none standard marking I assume it is post WW 1, and these will be on 1907's. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 16 August , 2014 Share Posted 16 August , 2014 Just located the post on my N STAF bayonet: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201058&hl=staf Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 August , 2014 Share Posted 17 August , 2014 Hi Trajan, As far as I know the post 1881 standard markings are WTS for Wiltshire and BRK for Berkshire. I suspect WILTS would be a 1930's marking as there seems to have been a change in abbreviations then to more readily understandardable ones. Whereas there are lists for the post 1881ones, I have not seen a definitively list for the 30's ones. I got a bayonet marked N STAF which opened my eyes to the above as I could not understand why it was not N STF. Now if I see a none standard marking I assume it is post WW 1, and these will be on 1907's. Cheers, Tony Thanks for the correction Tony! I don't have very much reference-wise on UK and Commonwealth markings, and I did that reply from my office computer which doesn't have all my on-line reference threads on it, so that was a bit of a stab in the dark, forgetting that the regulations had changed over time... Here, for future reference, are the only on-line listings I have seen for UK markings as I have these on my home computer - but I cannot guarantee they are definitive: http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/brit_bayo.html#regimentals http://www.martinihenry.com/units.htm#generalservice http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/id1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2015 I just rediscovered this thread and realised I have missed the last few pages of posts. Looking forward to going back and reviewing them now. In the meantime, here is a P88 I found recently with some interesting (and detailed) unit markings. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 March , 2015 Share Posted 21 March , 2015 Every so often my wife says "Let's get out of this country" on account of current problems here, and when I see what you can find by way of bayonets, well, I tend to agree it WOULD be nice to emigrate! In other words, a P.1888 with such clear and interesting markings as that, and you 'found [it] recently'... Words almost fail me! (sounds of drooling in the background...) Seriously, JS, a very nice find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 22 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2015 Thanks Trajan! Well I wouldn't mind living in Turkey for a while to be honest - some wonderful travel to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 30 March , 2015 Share Posted 30 March , 2015 In Post #100, dating was requested of a Sanderson that was stamped Crown/ R/ 26 on the grips, but had no other markings. S>S in #101 surmised that this was in the time range "mid-1899 to roughly 1903". A couple of weeks ago I had started "collecting" inspector marks of P.1988 and P.1907 by trawling various sites. My small database does contain a Sanderson 3 '92 which is stamped Crown/ S/ 25, so 1903 would seem tobe appropriate. A quick search reveals that Sanderson started the manufacture of sword bayonets in 1891. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 In Post #100, dating was requested of a Sanderson that was stamped Crown/ S/ 26 on the grips, but had no other markings. S>S in #101 surmised that this was in the time range "mid-1899 to roughly 1903". A couple of weeks ago I had started "collecting" inspector marks of P.1988 and P.1907 by trawling various sites. My small database does contain a Sanderson 3 '92 which is stamped Crown/ R/ 25, so 1903 would seem tobe appropriate. A quick search reveals that Sanderson started the manufacture of sword bayonets in 1891. Well, that bayonet in post 100 is a Mk II, with clearance hole in the pommel, and in my purple bayonet-buying-note book I have written that the Mk II was introduced in May 1899, and the Mk III with screws instead of rivets was authorised in September 1901, so it should be within that range 1899-1901, and not as late as 1903! However, perhaps SS was thinking 1903 as that was presumably when these P.1888 stopped being made? Even so, JMB, your approach to dating the grips by means of inspectors marks is certainly the right one: true, grips are movable but even so, a core data set of dated inspector marks is one way forward. And even better would be to have the list of who got these stamps and when! To tell the truth, I have never actually looked very hard into these grips stamps. I'll try and check the P1888 book later to see what Mike says on them - off-hand I assume that they were made elsewhere and then sent to Enfield or wherever, but where were they inspected and the mark applied? In Germany there is certainly evidence for the same inspector's mark being on the grips and the blade spine, implying that the practice there was formal inspection of both at the factory - but that need not be the case in GB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 My small database does contain a Sanderson 3 '92 which is stamped Crown/ R/ 25, so 1903 would seem to be appropriate. I think you will find that Crown over Letter inspection marking will show a letter S. At this time the Letters were following the pattern of the Maker's initial. So Sanderson bayonets will all have Crown/S inspection marks, Wilkinson will all have Crown/W markings etc. This was the pattern for the Contractor's. Below is an example ricasso from one of my Sanderson bayonets from the same period. You can tell it is an earlier bayonet as it shows the ^WD stamp. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 Trajan---thanks for info regarding the possible date range. Clearly dangerous to rely on the stamp on a removable piece (wooden grips or leather scabbard/frog) when the metal itself cannot be dated. S>S---yes, it is indeed Crown/ S/ 25; can I ask what is the date of your Crown/ S/ 25, shown above ?? Looks like Crown/ R/ 26 belongs strictly to the grip manufacturer. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 Trajan---thanks for info regarding the possible date range. Clearly dangerous to rely on the stamp on a removable piece (wooden grips or leather scabbard/frog) when the metal itself cannot be dated. S>S---yes, it is indeed Crown/ S/ 25; can I ask what is the date of your Crown/ S/ 25, shown above ?? No, I think the grips look ok on this - the marked examples in my experience are not that common! The WD mark is - the the best of my knowledge - only used up to 1897, so SS will confirm, or not, but I'd guess his is 1897 or earlier. Need to see the pommel! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 S>S---yes, it is indeed Crown/ S/ 25; can I ask what is the date of your Crown/ S/ 25, shown above ?? Looks like Crown/ R/ 26 belongs strictly to the grip manufacturer. That one is dated 1894. It will NOT be a Crown/R as the letter R was never used.! It will definitely be a letter S on the Sanderson inspected grips as well. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 I'm a bit lost on this one... It's an 03/02, and I guess that the I.Y. could be Imperial Yeomanry, but this is of course too late for service against the Boers... But the H.T.F? Several possibilities of expanding that but does anyone have a straight on-the-ball (or even near it!) answer? Thanks in advance! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2015 Hertfordshire Yeomanry is my guess. Some nice markings there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 Hertfordshire Yeomanry is my guess. Some nice markings there! Well, Herts or Hants Territorial Force was one possibility that occurred to me... As I understand it, the IY went on until 1908 and was made up of odds and sods detached from other units, so perhaps those sent for service with it kept their original unit markings and then added an 'I.Y'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2015 Hi Trajan I think Hampshire is generally HTS, so I'll stick with Hertfordshire Yeomanry. I think the IY were about until 1908 as you said so I don't see any issues with that part of the marking (although as you note, it would have been too late for the Boer war). Did you pick this one up in Istanbul? cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 April , 2015 Share Posted 15 April , 2015 OK, Herts it is then! Thanks! Yes, as I understand it, this is an Istanbul find at the antika pazari there, by my friendly dealer! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2015 Interesting. Out of interest do you know where these dealers source their bayonets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now