P1888 bayonets

[Terrylee]

The South African Pattern 1888s were manufactured by the South African Railways in 1941/1942. Unlike the Pattern 1907s and 1913 made over the same period they show minimal markings. The "M" on this particular bayonet probably indicates that it was made at the Maitland Railway Workshops. The scabbard bears the "S.A.R." standing for South African Railways. These bayonets were issued to members of the Defence Rifle Associations.

[sawdoc34]

Cheers for the pics terrylee, most interesting & well cool bayonet.

So far SA made pieces have eluded me, the nearest I have is a union marked SAAF P1907 drill purpose bayonet.

Aleck

[jscott]

Nice bayonet which looks like it has seen some use (which is a positive) - thanks for sharing!

Was it the bottom mount which was reattached with glue? I have one P1888 where this has come loose as well.

Cheers, J

[sawdoc34]

Jscott,

Some fine looking 1888s you have there also, like all the regimental markings, you are most definitely hooked on these.

Have picked up a few more myself lately, 4 of them are a bit worse for wear but should clean up ok (couldnt help myself, the old warriors needed a bit tlc in a loving home) & 1 in a 1939 replacement mk1 naval scabbard (scabbard has been moved to 1 of my scabbardless P1903s now)

Aleck

[jscott]

Hi Aleck, yes I find them very interesting bayonets, especially as they were used for such a long period of time, and also because I've found that they are much more likely to have regimental markings than the P07s. Unfortunately this hasn't stopped me from collecting the P07s as well...

I also like the bayonets that have seen a bit of wear, and given how well the P88s were made I'm sure your recent additions will clean up well. To be honest I'm not particularly well informed on the various types of scabbards, and its something I'd like to learn a bit more about. I'm also looking one of the first model P88s with the three rivets, but yet to find one of these (at least for a price I can afford). A lovely example posted above however!

[sawdoc34]

Jscott,

I can easily see why you find the P1888s so fascinating, they have survived from the boer war thru to WW2 in service as can be seen in terrylees last post with the SA example (plenty more have came out of afghanistan, so were still being used even later by the looks of it).

I had 2 mk1s at 1 point but needed quick funds to purchase other blades, so sold my best example, leaving me with 1 of my rescued (abandoned in someones shed most probably) examples but I am not that intetested in mint condition bayonets, they are nice to have but any example is better than none in my books

As for scabbards (our mate S/S is the man for them), I am trying to find an indian pattern with built in frog for an indian P1903 & a suitable land pattern 1 for my mk1 P1888.

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Here are a couple of photos for illustration purposes in regard to the scabbards. Finding good condition scabbards for these bayonets is a problem.

At the top is a Patt.1888 Mk.I bayonet in the standard Patt.1888 Mk.I (Land) scabbard. These have the steel mountings on the black leather bodies.

All versions of the Patt.1888 bayonets are correct with this scabbard, as well as the Patt.1903 bayonets which were often issued with this scabbard.

Below that is a Patt.1888 Mk.II bayonet in an 'Indian Pattern' scabbard which I believe were made much later, possibly even circa WW2 and beyond.

These can be found in both black and brown leather, and can fit both the P1888 and P1903, and even the later Indian varieties of shortened P1907s.

Then at the bottom we have a Patt.1903 bayonet in its correct Patt.1903 Mk.I (Land) scabbard in the brown leather with the slide-on integral hanger.

It also features the steel plug insert into the tip instead of a chape mounting. The side seams on the early scabbards are neat and easy to distinguish.

For collectors these days, the correct scabbards are becoming much rarer than the bayonets. I sometimes now just buy bayonets for their scabbards.!

Skennerton's book "British & Commonwealth Bayonets" is the best reference for these scabbards, and of course the drawings from the List of Changes

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Hi S>S, some nice scabbards there - thanks for posting. All of my P88s came in the Mk.I scabbard, so I'm assuming this is the most common? I've never seen the Indian version before; it seems a little long? Thats a particularly nice P03 Mk.I scabbard, unfortunately my only P03 came in a P88 Mk.I scabbard (although given the quality of the bayonet and the price I paid it would be petty to be too worried about it!). I did have a look at Skennerton in relation to these scabbards, but I'm currently more focussed on the bayonet and its markings, so am happy to take whatever scabbard comes with the bayonet (and in a few instances I've been happy to purchase the bayonet sans scabbard).

Cheers, J

[shippingsteel]

That's right J, most times you just have to take what you can get, but a good condition scabbard is worth looking out for and can really sweeten a deal (with value)

When I go to shows now I spend time searching out the best scabbard on each table, then do the haggling to get the best bayonet to match with it in order to buy.

The Indian scabbards are somewhat longer, and I think thats because of the variation in length found with their shortened P1907 versions, which they can also fit.

I don't really think they were ever made for the P1888 bayonet, but you often find them together nowadays as dealers realise they're an easy replacement for sale.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

They were only stamped with reissue dates and inspection marks after being in to the depot for repairs or when being issued again out of stores.

So many would not have received extra markings which makes it difficult, however you do see examples with wartime repair dates and reissues.

It's always hard to piece together any of the equipments history, but markings of any kind can help wherever you find them - and if you find them.!

Getting back to the markings which can be found on these P1888 bayonets, here is an example of a wartime reissue (and possibly change of service.!)

This bayonet was made in 1901, at Enfield as can be seen from the markings down the centre rib. To the left is the '16 reissue and inspection marking.

On the pommel we see the N which signifies Naval service, possibly initially serving with the Royal Naval Division with such a large rack number (899)

Both of these earlier markings have been cancelled out, presumably at the time of reissue. Interestingly the RND was incorporated into the Army in 1916.

This bayonet has also had all of its metalwork dulled to avoid reflection off the polished blade. This sandblasted refinishing was approved during the war.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Nice bayonet S>S, and a very interesting finish. I've not seen many 1888s with that sandblasted look. Presumably if they went to that effort it is likely it was used by the army (as I'm imagining that reflection would be less of a problem at sea).

I also don't often see the reissue markings - even where the bayonet was clearly reissued (i.e. where it is unit marked to a territorial battalion which was only raised long after the manufacturing date).

Cheers, J

[shippingsteel]

Well the wartime reissue markings are relatively uncommon ... unlike some examples that were in use much earlier which are literally covered with stampings (see below)

Your experience is interesting, and raises questions whether these less-marked bayonets were put into storage for some period after manufacture, coming out for the war.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Yes I think you might be right there.

It would be interesting to know what kind of percentage of bayonets used by the territorials in 1915 were P88s (as opposed to P07s) as that might give an indication of whether they delved into storage to arm the territorials early in the war.

[RangeRover]

Can I crash this party with a couple of what I believe to be two Canadian service P1888s? I don't collect these (at least I don't think I do), so I'd love it if SS and others more experienced with these could tell me about the pair - though I suspect they're pretty much bog standard.

The top one I bought because my MLE was, I thought, incomplete without an appropriate bayonet. Markings are: Crown over VR and 8 '96. Regimental markings are MR over 79. The MR and 79 are repeated on the top of the scabbard (MR on one side of the throat; 79 on the other). SS, you responded to my original post several years ago, and we discussed whether the MR equates to the Canadian Mounted Rifles, which participated in the Anglo-Boer war. I've not been able to find out anything more since, so would welcome any insights.

Though I didn't need it (I only have one MLE) I bought the second one because it came with the Oliver Pattern frog (for the going price of bayonet and scabbard alone here in Canada). As a bonus, when it arrived, the whole thing turned out to be a matching set. Marked Crown over VR 9 '96 Wilkinson London. Regimental markings, if you can call them that, are limited to the number 107 on the bayonet and scabbard. The same number, along with the remains of a Canadian M&D stamp are in place on the back side of the frog (tough to see on the photo).

[shippingsteel]

Yes I remember you enquired about the MR abbreviations for Canadian service, and I mentioned that there were quite a few possibilities available.

With a lot of these questions, a picture is really worth more than a thousand words, so I am particularly pleased you have now added some photos.

Its a remarkable coincidence really as I also have a bayonet which must be from the same "bunch", which I have been trying to find out more about.

It is a Wilkinson that was made in October 1896 and came with a matching '96 scabbard. Both scabbard and bayonet bore these 'strange' markings.

Now that you've posted your examples, it fills in the missing gaps in my research. Our examples are all Canadian from the same shipment ex Britain.

My bayonet has the same marking pattern as yours, with the horizontal line separating the letterings, yours M.R over 79 while mine has a 24 over 99.

So this shows it is not just a 'random' configuration but part of some system which was in use at that time, and this can definitely help in the research.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

So to summarise where I have got to with researching these markings, we first have to compare the examples, with their dates & markings etc.

Your top example was made in August 1896, marked with the M.R over 79, and came with a scabbard similarly marked, both in certain pattern.

My marked example was made October 1896, stamped on pommel with 24 over 99, but with another 1896 scabbard marked with 21 over 347.

So we have 4 objects presumably all made in 1896 that were shipped to Canada and marked in a certain pattern, all with similar font stampings.

Assuming that these markings are all related and are part of a system, we then just have to work out how the abbreviations all fit with known units.

The Canadian military had quite a large reorganisation about the time of the Second Boer War, with many units undergoing changes circa 1900/01

The Canadian Mounted Rifles were instigated at this time and I believe the M.R marking could certainly relate to this unit (with the rack number 79)

Also on the Infantry side of things, the 21st Regiment, Essex Fusiliers (based in Ontario) was in existence, with the scabbard rack number marked 347.

Another very closely related regiment which was also located in Ontario was the 24th Kent Regiment with a similar pattern marking and a rack number 99.

So it is fascinating how these things can all fit together, and I have to thank MenoftheNorth for helping me to fill in the gaps, as it has always had me stumped.

I knew that there must be some link between my bayonet and scabbard, as they seemed to have been together for ever. Now I know the reason.! (see HERE)

As for your bottom matching set, I am not sure about the M&D as it almost looks more like a P on the end, so maybe it is something else. It should be a Regiment.?

I note the fonts on that set are all the same as the other markings we have. So following on in that pattern, the letters should show a unit. May need another check.?

Cheers, S>S

[RangeRover]

Thanks for this, S>S, and excellent score on the Canadian bayonets in your collection and on your success in researching them.

The number-bar-number marking structure is quite common on Canadian arms and accoutrements with regiment number over stand of arms number. Here's the buttstock on my Ross rifle Mk II 5* for example. Regiment number over stand of arms number.

Also visible (mostly) in the lower left of the photo above is the M&D (Militia and Defence) stamp signifying Canadian military ownership - that stamp falling between the <DC> (Dominion of Canada) and C-Broad Arrow ownership marks. This latter introduced in 1907. My dismal photo of the Oliver Pattern frog doesn't really show it well but, in hand, I'm quite confident it's the M&D marking rather than something regimental. Which leaves the bottom bayonet unassigned, as it were.

Inspired by this thread, and the research efforts of those who have posted here, I have unearthed one other possibility for the "MR" marking, but need to do more research. This bayonet may be from 14th battalion Volunteer Militia Rifles of Canada, now the The Princess of Wales’ Own Regiment ( http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/princess-wales-own-regiment/index.page). More research required.

[shippingsteel]

The main thing to keep in mind with looking at these markings is "time and place", which makes the approximate dating of the markings most critical ie. "period"

With these examples all being produced late 1896 before being shipped to Canada, and taking into consideration some storage time, I'm thinking Boer War era.

Having done some more digging I think Mounted Rifles is probably on the money, as the contingent was raised and sent to Africa at the time (more about HERE)

And they wouldn't have included the 'Canadian' in the abbreviated title as of course they already knew they were Canadian.! See selected paragraph from that site.

"During the Boer War, the unit originally raised was named the 1st Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles, and comprised a total of 19 officers and 371 men and their horses ...

The core of each squadron was provided by experienced regular officers and men from the Royal Canadian Dragoons, the cavalry unit of the Canadian Permanent Force.

For this reason, in August 1900, at the unit's own request, the 1st Canadian Mounted Rifles were renamed the Royal Canadian Dragoons."

From that page we have the image of the Boer War Memorial statue, which shows the trooper armed with the MLE which of course fitted the P1888 bayonet (more HERE)

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Regimental markings are MR over 79. The MR and 79 are repeated on the top of the scabbard (MR on one side of the throat; 79 on the other).

Before considering ' M.R. ' as standing for Mounted Rifles, you may wish to look at 2 other Canadian Regiments who are known to have used the ' M.R. ' marking.

From Military District No. 2 - ' M.R. ' was attributed to The Mississauga Regiment. and from Military District No.10 - ' M.R. ' was attributed to The Manitoba Rangers.

I have a 50 round .303 Bandolier dated 1914 which was issued to the Canadian Mounted Rifles, and that is clearly marked ' C.M.R. '. Attached is a photo of the Bandolier and a Canadian Mounted Trooper wearing such a Bandolier, and a recruitment poster for the Canadian Mounted Rifles.

It would seem that the Canadian Mounted Rifles used the marking ' C.M.R.' and not MR.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Canadian Mounted Rifles, as the 1st Battalion Canadian Mounted Rifles were part of the C.E.F. ( Canadian Expeditionary Force ).

The CMR's WW1 Battle Honours were - Mount Sorrel; Somme, 1916; Flers-Courcelette; Ancre Heights; Arras, 1917, '18; Vimy, 1917; Hill 70; Ypres, 1917; Passchendaele; Amiens; Scarpe, 1918; Hindenburg Line; Canal du Nord; Cambrai, 1918; Valenciennes; France and Flanders, 1915–18.

Also attached, is a photograph of CMR troopers parading before embarking for the Western Front.

[geluveld]

I have a P1888 bayonet, sold out of service stamp (arrows pointing at each other),

with several rack numbers and a crossed out SS marking. Could this be South Staffords?

Also, on the other side, it has a South African acceptance stamp ( 'U' with broad arrow in the middle) and marked with 1 SAMR.

Could this be 1st South African Mounted rifles

Bayonet has no re-issue stamps, only the production date of 1901 marked on the ricasso.

(scabbard is a salvaged MA marked Australian one, shortened to fit the P1888. Bought it this way).

Comes from a older collection in flandres, so I presume the bayonet is something left behind after the war (as the previous owner hasn't even heard of the word 'internet') and the scabbard is something he bought on a local fair, and shortened to fit his bayonet).

[Lancashire Fusilier]

with several rack numbers and a crossed out SS marking. Could this be South Staffords?

Also, on the other side, it has a South African acceptance stamp ( 'U' with broad arrow in the middle) and marked with 1 SAMR.

Could this be 1st South African Mounted rifles

The British South Staffordshire Regiment used the regimental mark ' S.STF. '

The South African Mounted Rifles used the regimental mark ' S.A.M.R. '

The only British regimental mark I can think of that contained an ' S.S. ' was the Supernumary Staff, Royal Engineers, who used the mark ' S.S.R.E. ' not just S.S.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

I have a P1888 bayonet, sold out of service stamp (arrows pointing at each other), with several rack numbers and a crossed out SS marking. Could this be South Staffords?

Also, on the other side, it has a South African acceptance stamp ( 'U' with broad arrow in the middle) and marked with 1 SAMR. Could this be 1st South African Mounted rifles

The 'sold out of service' stamp would immediately suggest that the markings are not British. And the U^ would support all the unit marks being South African.

Cheers, S>S

[RangeRover]

LF, thank you for raising another couple of possibilities on the potential heritage of the "MR" marking. The depth of knowledge here is astounding. Are you able to provide me with your sources on the Mississauga Rangers and Manitoba Rifles so I can dig a bit further? My, admittedly basic, searching skills only show the history of those regiments in the last couple of years leading up to the Great War, potentially just beyond the dates of issuance of the MLE and the P1888 bayonet, as they migrated into the Mk II Ross.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

another couple of possibilities on the potential heritage of the "MR" marking.

Although the The Mississauga Regiment used the ' M.R. ' mark, their 1920 formation date rules them out, however the Manitoba Rangers look a strong possibility, they were a Canadian Reserve Force regiment originating in Brandon, Manitoba, formed on 1 April 1908, as the 99th Regiment and were re-designated as the Manitoba Rangers on 1st May, 1911.

Many of the Canadian Reserve Regiments ( and also some British Regiments - see Liverpool Scottish 1914 photo attached ) were equipped with the Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle ( the Long Lee ), which as you know used the P1888 bayonet, and in my own Rifle Collection I have a nice example of a Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle with Canadian military issue markings.

Obviously, without documentary or photographic evidence, one can only surmise that upon the formation of the Manitoba Rangers in May, 1911, they were issued with Magazine Lee Enfield Rifles and the matching P1888 bayonets, which in turn were marked with the new regiment's mark of ' M.R. '. Nevertheless, it is a good assumption to make, given you have an ' M.R. ' marked P1888 bayonet.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.