jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Share Posted 18 May , 2013 Hello all I thought I would post some photos of a few P1888 bayonets that I have picked up over the last year or so. These particular bayonets epitomise what I look for in the bayonets I collect: good "used" condition and markings which give the bayonet a traceable history. My understanding is that the P1888 bayonet remained in service with certain units that were using MLE/CLLEs (mostly territorials) up until late 1915/ mid 1916 on the western front (and possibly later in other theatres). Each of these bayonets have nice regimental markings identifying them to units that were active over this period. Whilst it is impossible to say that they were used by these units in action on the Western Front and Gallipoli during this period, it is nice to think that at least some of them may have been. If nothing else, they are certainly a very attractive and well made bayonet which were used extensively in the two conflicts in which I am most interested (2nd boer war and great war). I'm hoping to do some additional research on each of the battalions/ units to which these bayonets are marked but I will post some close-ups of the markings (and my interpretation of these), and also a short history of that battalion/ unit's participation in the early part of the war. Finally, I have just realised that the photos of the bayonets may be around the wrong way, so my apologies to the purisits (especially S>S and Trajan!) J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 This bayonet is marked 4LNL to the 4th Loyal North Lancshires (Preston Territorials), who moved to Flanders in early 1915 and fought at Festubert, suffering 431 casualties on 15 June in their first general action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 This bayonet is marked 7CH to the 7th Cheshire battalion, which landed at Suvla on 9 August and which was involved in an unsuccessful attack on Scimitar Hill on 10 August (in which the 53rd (Welsh) Div suffered horrendous losses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 This bayonet is marked IYC 8 666, which I believe refers to the Imperial Yoemanry Company 8 (Derbyshire). This company was raised during the Boer War and arrived in South Africa on 21 Feb 1900 with the first contingent of the IY. In 1908 the IYC8 was transferred into the territorial force as the Derbyshire Yoemanry and the regiment mobilised in August 1914 in the Notts & Derby mounted brigade before moving to Egypt in 1915 with the 7th Mounted Brigade, 2nd Mounted Division. In 1915 they sailed for Gallipoli and fought in the battle of Scimitar Hill serving as dismounted infantry and suffered heavy losses. Following their time in Gallipoli they returned to Egypt and spent the later parts of the war involved in the Senussi campaign and later in Salonkia and Macedonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 This bayonet is marked 4Y&L, which refers to the 4th battalion of the York & Lancs (the Hallamshire Battalion). This battalion went to France in April 1915 with the 49th (West Riding) Division and fought in the Ypres salient from June 1915. In the following six months the battalion lost 94 killed and 401 injured. The battalion was later involved at the Somme (including participating in the follow up wave on 1 July). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 Finally, this bayonet is marked 5GR, for the 5th Gloucestershire battalion, which landed in France in March 1915. The pommel also has some crossed out markings to either the Coldstream guards or Grenadier guards (which I'm yet to unravel). I'm still researching what this battalion did in 1915, but I understand that they suffered heavy losses at at the Somme, assaulting the Quadrilateral on 1 July, and were also involved in the battle of Bazentin Ridge, Pozieres Ridge and at the Ancre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 May , 2013 Share Posted 20 May , 2013 Jonathon, I like what you're doing with your collection and the follow up research. You have some nicely marked P1888 bayonets there. Now all you have to do is check for any other dates or markings such as re-issue and repair stamps to see if you can narrow down the service. And when certain battalions of the regiments in question were first formed. Sometimes this can help with establishing better service timelines. And you're welcome to arrange your examples in any fashion you see fit. You can't label me as a purist or pedant - just show me the bayonets.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 21 May , 2013 Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Could you bayonet experts please tell me which bayonet I need to complete my .303 Enfield Martini ? Can you recommend suitable sources ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 21 May , 2013 Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Stoppage Drill, If your Martini Enfield is a rifle, the Pattern 1895 is correct. (Photo attached) If an Artillery Carbine, they fit all the Pattern 1888 bayonets ie. Mks.I/1, I/2, II and III. However, I expect that the Mk.III made by the South Africans during WW II would be inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 25 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2013 Thanks S>S. I was wondering if there are any hard and fast rules in relation to reissue numbers. If a bayonet stayed with a certain unit (and wasn't damaged or refurbished etc) presumably they wouldn't bother stamping a reissue number? Sometimes they can be very helpful in determining the history of a bayonet but presumably the lack of a reissue number isn't definitive proof that a bayonet wasn't used after a certain period. (From memory one or two of the above bayonets have regimental markings to battalions that were only raised after (say) 1908, but don't have an issue date after 1900) Id be very interested to hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 They were only stamped with reissue dates and inspection marks after being in to the depot for repairs or when being issued again out of stores. So many would not have received extra markings which makes it difficult, however you do see examples with wartime repair dates and reissues. It's always hard to piece together any of the equipments history, but markings of any kind can help wherever you find them - and if you find them.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2013 Thanks S>S, thats very helpful. The 1888s are such a hardy little bayonet that I suspect they probably required fewer repairs than other styles of bayonet. Some of my P1907s are covered in reissue markings, my P1888s a little less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2013 And here is one more P1888 bayonet which I recently acquired. It is marked Y // WR // 6, which I believe is for the Worcestershire Yoemanry. The Worcestershire Yoemanry fought at Suvla (as infantry) from August until the end of October. Interestingly in June 1917 the Worcestershire Yoemanry were joined to the Australian Mounted Division and were later involved in the Charge at Huj. All in all a very interesting history which I'm keen to read up on (once I've finished Max Hastings latest tome). Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 September , 2013 Share Posted 18 September , 2013 Hi Jonathan, I think you're about right with identifying your markings, with the Y for Yeomanry and WR for Worcestershire. What is the bayonet vintage.? And are there any reissue marking dates.? This is probably a much earlier marking - from 1908 the "yeomanry" were Territorials, making the Y obsolete. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 September , 2013 Hi S>S, thanks for your comments. I had a bit of a look into that and it would actually tie quite nicely with the markings. The bayonet was made in 1898 and there are no reissue markings (although as a side point there are no reissue markings on several of the bayonets that I've posted above including where the units were only formed post 1908 etc, so I'm not sure thats conclusive either way). Apparently the Worcestershire Yoemanry formed the 6th squadron of the 5th regiment of Imperial Yoemanry Cavalry in the Boer War. I guess if the markings on this bayonet were made at the time of the Boer War then the "6" may refer to the squadron (as opposed to a low rack number)? I assume the bayonet could still have been used during WW1 but no proof of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_Terrier Posted 15 December , 2013 Share Posted 15 December , 2013 Very nice bayonets! May I ask if anyone knows what the going rate is for Pattern 1888 bayonets? I presume that the regimentally marked models are more sought after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2013 Hi T_T, In my experience there is quite a range in price, depending on whether the bayonet comes with a scabbard, is regimentally marked (as you mention) and where you buy from - generally they are cheaper from the US (although of course postage may nullify this advantage). I would say that you could probably pick up a decent example without scabbard for around £50, and a bayonet with a good quality scabbard around £85. Regimental markings may add a little although I have rarely paid much more than that for my examples (although I have seen P88's with attractive regimental markings for as much as £250). And of course the first model P88's which had three rivets in the grip are very scarce and would generally be £200+. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_Terrier Posted 15 December , 2013 Share Posted 15 December , 2013 Thanks J, sounds like I might be able to afford one after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 28 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2013 Good news - please do post photos if you get one (or more). cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_Terrier Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 Here are a few photos of my 'new' 2nd Pattern Mk.1 1888 bayonet. There is a bit of damage to the wooden grips, and the scabbard has been repaired with glue which is a bit unfortunate. The scabbard is numbered and matches the numbers stamped on the hilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 TT, your bayonet is a quite early example which was made at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield (but they were not stamped with a makers mark) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_Terrier Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 Thanks for that S_S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 Nice bayonet tartan, you cant help but love the P1888s & P1903s but watch out as they can become addictive (as some of us have found to the detriment of our wallets), especially if you decide to collect all mks & scabbard types. Nice find anyway & welcome to the club Aleck P.S. S/S I am in the middle of trying to add a land or indian pattern scabbard to the collection, will be more certain which type when get pics later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 The Pattern 1888 range: Mk. I First Model Mk. Second model Mk. II Mk. III Mk. III South African manufacture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 29 December , 2013 Share Posted 29 December , 2013 Wow, nice set of 88s there Terrylee Any chance of some pics og the markings on SA mk3? Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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