P1888 bayonets

[MikeyH]

All of the P1888 bayonets seen on this forum and at arms fairs, have highly polished blades. When new would they have had a blued, parkerized or polished finish?

Mike.

[4thGordons]

I don't think they would have had anything other than polished, this was how they were produced AFAIK for their entire service life

The other finishes on P1907 blades (for example) were introduced during the war when 1888s were not being produced and the number in front line service was dwindling rapidly as the last units had their CLLEs replaced by SMLEs (by early 1916 in most cases) so, by the time these finishes (sand blasting/parkerizing etc) were being applied there were far fewer 1888s in service to apply them to.

One exception (sorta) to this would perhaps be P1903 bayonets which (re)used p1888 blades. I have at least one (and have seen others) Indian P1903 bayonet with a 1888 blade that had a dull grey/green phosphate/parkerized finish.

Ducks below the parapet to await incoming from the experts.

Chris

[trajan]

Out of interest do you know where these dealers source their bayonets?

Boy, would I love to know that! Aleck sawdoc is the person to ask about hunting - he has found some pretty amazing stuff!

As for me, the one guy in the pazari keeps them close to his chest and so I never know what he has until I get there or where he finds them... The other guy who looks out for me is in import/export, and so spots them all over the place, inluding the larger and twice a month pazari at istanbul - but is always honest about provenance (i.e., it's 'Turkey' or 'abroad', with abroad usually being Bulgaria but he has just showed me a nice Ersatz from the US of A...

I prefer the hunt, as we all do, but sources are limited here and by now the main pazari guys know me well enough to (usually) hold stuff back - and even let me take things away on trust if I don't have enough cash!

But, back to P.1888's... I was just oiling some of mine (sun's out!) and stabbed myself in the finger with this one which I then realised I don't think I have showed on GWF (well, not it would seem on this thread). An Ankara find with scabbard, a WD 04/90 with a very faint Victoria crown, and pommel marked 3/8 R.S. over 850(?), over 360. Locket marks are 249 and 397/

I assume this is 3/8 Royal Scots and was dumbfounded not to find this one on the LLTrail - but it is recorded on this site: http://www.johngraycentre.org/east-lothian-subjects/war-battles-military/the-8th-territorial-battalion-the-royal-scots-in-world-war-one/

I quote: "The 3/8th was the third battalion to be raised from the peacetime 8th. It was embodied in December 1914 at Peebles, was at Prestonpans in late 1915, but returned to Peebles and then Stobs where its independent existence ceased in July 1916. A reorganisation brought all the 3rd line Royal Scots Territorial battalions into a new formation, the 4th (Reserve) Battalion, which for the rest of the war provided training and drafts to the active service Territorial battalions."

So, assuming that web-site is accurate, then a P.1888 in use with a marking neatly dated to 1914-1916!

[trajan]

I don't think they would have had anything other than polished, this was how they were produced AFAIK for their entire service life...

...Ducks below the parapet to await incoming from the experts....

According to Wilkinson-Latham followed by Rose, they were:

"...polished, burnished with emery, Trent sand and lime, and finally polished with discs of calico and swansdown"

I thought that the blueing process was developed/first used by the Germans in about 1915? Used on the later Gew.98 muzzle protecters - later metal metal fittings on Gew.98 being browned? Anyway, the lack of blueing or any other treatment might help explain what I think is carbon-leaching from so many P.1888 blades (well, at least the ones I have!).

Now my turn to duck "below the parapet to await incoming from the experts".... What was it Pope said in his 'On Criticism'? Oh, yes:

"These Monsters, Criticks! with your Darts engage/Here point your Thunder, and exhaust your Rage!"

If we read bayonets for darts, then we progress!!! Unless the darts become bricks for a wall - of the protective variety...

[JMB1943]

This thread has so far produced reference to Enfield, Sanderson & Wilkinson as the British manufacturers.

Did the other "usual suspects" (Chapman, Mole, Vickers for P.1907), or any other, also produce them ?

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

This thread has so far produced reference to Enfield, Sanderson & Wilkinson as the British manufacturers.

Did the other "usual suspects" (Chapman, Mole, Vickers for P.1907), or any other, also produce them ?

Regards,

JMB

Very good point! Time for dinner here but a quick look at Rose indicates Sanderson and Wlikinson as main makers for the army (with EFD), and Wilkinson, Greener, 'CCC', and Braendlin for the commercial market... If I am not corrected beforehand I'll try to check further after grub!

Trajan

[4thGordons]

According to Wilkinson-Latham followed by Rose, they were:

"...polished, burnished with emery, Trent sand and lime, and finally polished with discs of calico and swansdown"

I thought that the blueing process was developed/first used by the Germans in about 1915? Used on the later Gew.98 muzzle protecters - later metal metal fittings on Gew.98 being browned? Anyway, the lack of blueing or any other treatment might help explain what I think is carbon-leaching from so many P.1888 blades (well, at least the ones I have!).

Now my turn to duck "below the parapet to await incoming from the experts"....

So I read that as "Polished, polished (aka burnished) and then polished some more using progressively less abrasive media" leaving the final finish as....polished.

I believe "blueing" was around earlier (although there may be several different processes referred to generically as "blueing")

For example British rifle components had a "blued" finish far earlier than 1915. Blueing was certainly used on Martinis and MLM/MLEs for example and all SMLEs from introduction. This stands in distinction to the practice of Mauser/Berthier/Nagant rifles etc leaving their bolts/ bolts and receivers "in the white" (polished)

If you were referring to bayonets in particular P1907 bayonets of course sometimes had the pommel/crossguard and lower inch or so of the blade blued with the rest of the blade polished.

I believe "parkerizing" / phosphate finish was a later development but I don't know when exactly. WWI and Earlier M1903 Springfields were originally blued but later (and WWII refinishes) have a greenish parkerized type finish. Same with 1911 .45 Automatics etc. I think bluing had been around for quite a while prior to 1915.

Chris

Edit I just checked: the 1909 "Text Book of Small Arms" (part of which is transcribed in Skennerton TLES) describes SMLE production and under finishing makes reference to three methods used on different components:

Oil Blacking

Browning

and

Blueing (limited to some components) so that would suggest the process was not invented in 1915.

Edited 15 April , 2015 by 4thGordons

[JMB1943]

Interestingly, workers at RSAF have occupations variously described (1901 Census) as gun/barrel "browners". Possibly "browning" is a precursor to, or variant of (to avoid patent infringement ???), "blueing".

Regards,

JMB

[4thGordons]

Interestingly, workers at RSAF have occupations variously described (1901 Census) as gun/barrel "browners". Possibly "browning" is a precursor to, or variant of (to avoid patent infringement ???), "blueing".

Regards,

JMB

See my edit above (which I added before reading this!)

Browning had been in use for a long time on gun components - it involves a mixture of chemicals (acids) applied to the surface of the metal to give a dark, dulled appearance by controlled uniform oxidation of the surface

I believe it would be correct to see it as a precursor in this sense, a process that was used but was gradually supplanted.

Blueing is similar but produces a smoother deep blue finish and usually involves different chemicals and (usually) applying heat.

Both are designed to provide a measure of corrosion resistance to the metal.

Chris

[trajan]

I believe "blueing" was around earlier (although there may be several different processes referred to generically as "blueing")

For example British rifle components had a "blued" finish far earlier than 1915. Blueing was certainly used on Martinis and MLM/MLEs for example and all SMLEs from introduction. This stands in distinction to the practice of Mauser/Berthier/Nagant rifles etc leaving their bolts/ bolts and receivers "in the white" (polished)

If you were referring to bayonets in particular P1907 bayonets of course sometimes had the pommel/crossguard and lower inch or so of the blade blued with the rest of the blade polished.

I believe "parkerizing" / phosphate finish was a later development but I don't know when exactly. WWI and Earlier M1903 Springfields were originally blued but later (and WWII refinishes) have a greenish parkerized type finish. Same with 1911 .45 Automatics etc. I think bluing had been around for quite a while prior to 1915.

Chris

Edit I just checked: the 1909 "Text Book of Small Arms" (part of which is transcribed in Skennerton TLES) describes SMLE production and under finishing makes reference to three methods used on different components:

Oil Blacking

Browning

and

Blueing (limited to some components) so that would suggest the process was not invented in 1915.

Thanks 4G for looking those up. I hadn't quite forgotten the P.1907 'blued' ricassos (never personally seen a blued pommel or crossguard though), but simply didn't know when they were treated that way (i.e., at manufacture or later?), and I had no time to check S&R or any other source - is there a LOC on this? Do the original specifications for the P.1907 say anything? The Germans never seem to have 'blued' any bayonets until the Weimar period...

That aside, I knew that the Germans were using the 'blueing' process in 1915, and it is interesting to see that it may not have been a common treatment in the UK until about the same time. For some obscure reason (inter-net reading?) I had it in my mind the process was developed in Germany, and never really gave it much thought until this side chat developed!

But back to P.1888's... One thing I would welcome comments on from you, LF, SS, and all others who have been longer in the game than I, is this matter of why so many of the P.1888 (and P.1903) I find have blades that show clear signs of this - to coin a phrase - 'carbon-leaching' process and which, off-hand, I think it is present on both EFD and contracted examples of these two types. By contrast I have never (yet) seen it on a P.1907, and it is present on only one of my German bayonets, an Ersatz. One naturally assumes poor quality steel, but I'd like to have some clear explanation!

Julian

[trajan]

Hi Trajan

I think Hampshire is generally HTS, so I'll stick with Hertfordshire Yeomanry.

Hi Jonathan,

Well, I finally had a chance to check what there was on the units represented on this one, and not having access to the right kind of library here first went to the Wiki entry, which claims to be based on official and other histories. This came up with:

"In 1887 the two [1 and 2 Herts RVC] units were re-titled as the 1st and 2nd (Hertfordshire) Volunteer Battalions, the Bedfordshire Regiment.... during the Second Boer War the two battalions raised three volunteer Active Service Companies to serve in South Africa, all of which were attached to 2nd battalion the Bedfordshire Regiment. ... In 1908... The two Hertfordshire Volunteer Battalions were amalgamated to become the Hertfordshire Battalion, The Bedfordshire Regiment (T.F.). The following year the battalion was constituted separately and titled 1st Battalion, The Hertfordshire Regiment, though it remained associated with the regular Bedfordshire Regiment, existing in lieu of a second Bedfordshire territorial battalion. During the First World War, the Territorial Force was expanded and the Hertfordshire Regiment gained an additional three battalions. ..."

Wiki also notes that: "The Regiment was awarded the following battle honours, those shown in bold being borne on the Colours: South Africa 1900-02 ..." So maybe an 03/02 P.1888 could have gone out there? But no mention of Imperial Yeomanry here...

And this site - http://www.hertsmemories.org.uk/page_id__2724.aspx?path=0p1p338p notes that: "42nd (Hertfordshire) Company, Imperial Yeomanry: 1899-1901, raised from the Hertfordshire Yeomanry Cavalry, with additional volunteers"

interesting... The 'I[mperial].Y[eomanry].' mark is over what seems to be the 'H[ertfordshire].T[erritorial].F[orce]". mark - no battallion number. I wonder if they were still considered a contributing part of the IY after the Haldane Reform? Speculation, I know - but we archaeologists like

Best,

Trajan

EDIT: Dum-dum me... HTF is for Herts in Instructors for Armourers 1904...

[4thGordons]

I'm afraid I am not sure I understand what is meant by "Carbon Leaching" in this context so I can't really comment.

If the question is essentially why P1888 blades often exhibit some degree of corrosion I think the answer is probably that polishing, while it gives some resistance to oxidation, requires more upkeep and maintenance (and repolishing) than the later finishes, which (along with the desire to minimize reflections and the labour intensive initial finishing etc), is presumably why it was replaced by the later finishes.

Chris

[trajan]

I'm afraid I am not sure I understand what is meant by "Carbon Leaching" in this context so I can't really comment.

If the question is essentially why P1888 blades often exhibit some degree of corrosion I think the answer is probably that polishing, while it gives some resistance to oxidation, requires more upkeep and maintenance (and repolishing) than the later finishes, which (along with the desire to minimize reflections and the labour intensive initial finishing etc), is presumably why it was replaced by the later finishes.

Chris

It is this type of corrosion pattern here:

It is always a localised feature, and so I wondered if it represented areas where there was something in a (poor) metal mix, perhaps carbon, that was close to the surface and then decayed / eroded first... But I really have no idea! As I wrote earlier, I can't recall seeing this type of corrosion pattern on any P.1907's - but at a guess, in my collection of P.1888's and P.1903's 50%+ have it, and one of my Ersatz also.

Advice and comment welcomed!

Julian

[jscott]

Hi Trajan, some more info here (under the heading "Boer War" - although I note a WW1 connection too...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertfordshire_Yeomanry

[trajan]

so I'll stick with Hertfordshire Yeomanry....

Repeated thanks if that wasn't clear from post 161...

Hi Trajan, some more info here (under the heading "Boer War" - although I note a WW1 connection too...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertfordshire_Yeomanry

And thanks also for this one! Clearly Google Turkey gets a whole series of different responses than whatever you are using as this page did not come up over here.

Pushing it, I know, and I certainly wouldn't even lay a penny against a pound on this, but from what I read there and following the link from that page to the Yeomanry Mounted Brigade, it is possible to see how this bayonet could have ended up being marked the way it was. So, let's assume it is in the hands of the Herts TF when that unit is mobilised as 1/1 Herts and then the 1/1 Herts is assigned to the Yeomanry Mounted Brigade, and Jack says to Bob, 'Hey, we've got to mark our bayonets!", and Bob, being a long time member with memories of fighting the plucky Boers in mind goes ahead and marks the thing "I.Y./H.T.F." - yes, I fully admit, that is stretching the evidence, but not entirely beyond the bounds of speculation!

Tx again,

Julian

PS: Couldn't help but wonder if that bugler in the first link managed to get through forthcoming events...

EDIT: Dum-dum me... HTF is for Herts in Instructors for Armourers 1904... Ah well, nice while it lasted...!

2nd EDIT: I was waiting for somebody to broach the possible Gallipoli connection on this one... Don't worry, not 'dealer' talk, and my feet are firmly on the ground, but a bayonet bought in Turkey with a unit-mark that is connected to a unit that was at G...

[trajan]

Thought I'd put these two I.Y. marked '88's up for reference, the first from http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4787

An Enfield 03/98 - the original poster suggested:

"I.Y (IMPERIAL YEOMANRY)

S.X 38 canceled out (I think Sussex regiment)
N.R 38 (Norfolk Regiment or National Reserve, Gloucester Territorial Force Association??)"

This second one from: http://www.warstuff.com/1897-Dated-Enfield-1888-Pattern-MK-II-Sword-Bayon-i1556315.htm

An Enfield 10/98 - the original poster suggested:

"...[marked] '1 Y LNK' to the 1st Battalion, Lanarkshire Yeomanry" - but clearly that's a worn Imperial Yeomanry mark, not the least because: "The Regiment sponsored two companies of Yeomanry in 1900, for service in the South African War."

[trajan]

As can be the case, once you start looking around for a particular marking (in this case Imperial Yeomanry) they pop up all over the place!

So, just for reference purposes (no data on this one though), how about: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/edged-weapons/british-bayonets-163005/

But what about this one (also no data) at: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=35631

One suggestion was: "Imperial Yeomanary West Sussex Territorial"

And for an encore, there is this (no details) at: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/edged-weapons/id-british-regimental-markings-508607/

With the suggestion: "Imperial Yeomanry Bedfordshire"

Ma-in-law is here so I have free time from the kids and I'll just do a bit more searching as it will be nice to get a bunch more together for Tony and Jonathan who I know like these things!

Trajan

EDIT: actually that seems to be the lot from a simple search.

SECOND EDIT: Tony, I see you have one. IY/SH at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=217611&hl=reissue#entry2153274

[4thGordons]

So here is a question.

My understanding: Yeomanry = mounted? or is this where I am mistaken?

Pre SMLE cavalry/mounted troops were equipped with carbines.

Most versions of the lee-metford/enfield cavalry carbines (with the exception of the RIC carbine and the NZ carbine) did not mount bayonets (there was no bar)

So were the Yeomanry equipped with full length rifles? if not -- what on earth were all these P1888s with yeomanry markings attached to?

There were "Lee Speed" (Commercial) carbines (see bottom here) that were fitted with bayonet bars but did the yeomanry buy those? Seems unlikely.

so why all these IY bayonets?

Chris

[trajan]

Ooooh 'eck! VERY good point! Thanks Chris, for raising it...

I know nowt about the IY, never mind its weaponry, so perhaps an IY buff will enlighten us? I do know, though, that the Australian Mounted boys in Palestine carried P.1907's - what rifle did they have? Perhaps the IY had regular length rifles???

Either way, "Instructions for Armourers 1904" (reproduced in Rose's book on P.1888/1903's, and which I now have in front of me as at home) does list 'I.Y' as the mark for 'Imperial Yeomanry' and I now see it gives as an example (Rose, p. 209)one of those shown above, in post 167 - "IY/GR" for "Gloucestershire Imperial Yeomanry"... (EDIT: It also corrects my silly error re: HTF being for Herts territorial Force... HTF is for Herts... )

Julian

EDIT: add one from: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=217611&hl=reissue#entry2153274- post no. 11: MSDT's "I.Y./S.H." - Shropshire?

[4thGordons]

Ooooh 'eck! VERY good point! Thanks Chris, for raising it...

I know nowt about the IY, never mind its weaponry, so perhaps an IY buff will enlighten us? I do know, though, that the Australian Mounted boys in Palestine carried P.1907's - what rifle did they have? Perhaps the IY had regular length rifles???

The whole point about the SMLE was that it was an "all arms" weapon - midway between traditional carbine length and rifle length so all soldiers regardless of role could be armed with the same weapon. Prior to the introduction of the SMLE Britain [as with France, Germany, Belgium etc] had carbine length weapons for mounted troops/artillery etc and full length rifles for infantry. So by WWI British/Commonwealth cavalry had SMLEs.

Chris

[MRDK1]

Hi,

Based on official documentation British bayonets from sword bayonets pattern 1888 to modern L3A1 were manufactured with polished blades. Exception is wartime production of No. 1, No. 3 and No. 4 bayonets.

On 4 February 1915 in LoC § 17124 a temporary war time practice was introduced.

Sword-bayonet, pattern

1907, Mark I. C

Sand-blasting the surface of the blade instead of polishing

For future manufacture during the duration of the war the blades of the above-mentioned sword-bayonet will be sand-blasted instead of being polished.

The same took place during W.W.2.

In regard to the different surface treatments. Textbook for small arms states 1904 edition that:

Blueing:

This is a process, by which the surface of iron or steel articles, is turned blue, by oxidation caused by heat. The articles are placed in iron box, then covered with wood ashes in an oven, or on a ion plate, and heated to nearly a low red heat.

Browning:

This is a chemical process, by which the surface of iron or steel, is turned dark blue, by oxidation produced by acids. A polish may be given to the browning, with a wire brush, which closes the grain, and smoothes the surface.

Bayonets were browned and smaller parts might be oil blackened.

This is described in in L. of C § 11151 announced on 23 September 1901.

Sword-Bayonet, Pattern 1888 (Mark III) C

All ‘303-inch rifles and carbines fitted to take the pattern 1888 sword-bayonet.

Scabbard, brown leather sword-bayonet,

pattern 1888, land. (Marks II.) L Except for the Foot Guards

Patterns of the above have been sealed to govern future manufacture

The sword-bayonet only differs from the sword-bayonet pattern 1888, Marks I and II, described in LoC §§ 5877 and 9701, in the tang, pommel, and crosspiece, which are browned, and in the grips, which are fixed with two screws and nuts (oil blacked), to allow of the grips being removed when the bayonet requires re-browning……

Cheers

Michael

[JMB1943]

"Browning:

This is a chemical process, by which the surface of iron or steel, is turned dark blue, by oxidation produced by acids. A polish may be given to the browning, with a wire brush, which closes the grain, and smoothes the surface."

So, is it browning or blueing ? Or is "browning" the colloquial term ? And, how do I normalize this font & size to make it readable ?

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

The whole point about the SMLE was that it was an "all arms" weapon - midway between traditional carbine length and rifle length so all soldiers regardless of role could be armed with the same weapon. ...

Thanks for that clarification!

Based on official documentation British bayonets from sword bayonets pattern 1888 to modern L3A1 were manufactured with polished blades. Exception is wartime production of No. 1, No. 3 and No. 4 bayonets.

...

Blueing:

This is a process, by which the surface of iron or steel articles, is turned blue, by oxidation caused by heat. The articles are placed in iron box...

Browning:

This is a chemical process, by which the surface of iron or steel, is turned dark blue, by oxidation produced by acids. ...

Thankee for that! Well, I guess to get that narrow area of whatever on the ricasso of a P.1907 would require browning rather than blueing???

And, how do I normalize this font & size to make it readable ?

Go to top bar, then Font, and Size, and select, and click on the I if you want to/don't want to italicise

Happens to me periodically when not watching where the cursor is when I start writing - once wrote a whole sentence that appeared as 'lined out' before I knew it (that's the button on the top bar with S ...

[MRDK1]

British weapons were generally browned. This includes bayonets and firearms.

Just think about the description of blueing:

Blueing:

This is a process, by which the surface of iron or steel articles, is turned blue, by oxidation caused by heat. The articles are placed in iron box, then covered with wood ashes in an oven, or on a ion plate, and heated to nearly a low red heat.

What would that do the temper of a edged weapon?

Instruction for armourer 1892, 1897, 1904, 1912 and 1912 with 1916 amendments (and possible 1931 edition) all have detailed description of this process.

The armourer sergeant did carry out this process himself and it took several days.

And

1907 bayonets were browned !

The problem is that we all just use these terms randomly without really knowing what they mean. It took me a long time to understand the difference. It only clicked when I read instructions for armourer.

Cheers

Michael

[trajan]

...

The problem is that we all just use these terms randomly without really knowing what they mean. It took me a long time to understand the difference. It only clicked when I read instructions for armourer....

Indeed Michael, I realised that you wouldn't put a bayonet in a box to 'blue' a ricasso, but it didn't quite click about the heating and what that might do until you spelt it out...

Thanks,

Julian