Guide to Sporrans (continued)

[FROGSMILE]

The man on the left with the Sam Browne belt appears to be the Sgt Major. The Black Watch allowed their Sgt Majors most of the uniform distinctions of an officer. See example below.

Yes, that would be normal, although quite how the new SD was to appear on the RSM's was evolving at that time. They had previously worn the staff sergeant's sword belt, but now started to wear the sam browne. At first they were distinguished by wearing the old style SD with closed collar and no shirt and tie in almost all the infantry regiments, but over the next 15 years or so that gradually changed, especially as other corps, such as the ASC permitted an open collar as early as WW1. By WW2 the collar and tie was being worn virtually universally.

The poor old QMS was going through a difficult time as his status had been lowered more than he liked below the RSM and, for a while, he struggled to retain some of his old dress distinctions, but by WW2 almost all of them were lost and although still the senior WO2, his dress was seen as closer to the CSMs (who had previously been three staff grades below him) than he was to the RSM. All of that whilst his responsibilities grew significantly with the gradual mechanization of the Army, which seemed to add insult to injory.

[gordon92]

Yes, that would be normal, although quite how the new SD was to appear on the RSM's was evolving at that time. They had previously worn the staff sergeant's sword belt, but now started to wear the sam browne. At first they were distinguished by wearing the old style SD with closed collar and no shirt and tie in almost all the infantry regiments, but over the next 15 years or so that gradually changed, especially as other corps, such as the ASC permitted an open collar as early as WW1. By WW2 the collar and tie was being worn virtually universally.

The poor old QMS was going through a difficult time as his status had been lowered more than he liked below the RSM and, for a while, he struggled to retain some of his old dress distinctions, but by WW2 almost all of them were lost and although still the senior WO2, his dress was seen as closer to the CSMs (who had previously been three staff grades below him) than he was to the RSM. All of that whilst his responsibilities grew significantly with the gradual mechanization of the Army, which seemed to add insult to injory.

A most informative post, FROGSMILE. An interesting anomaly is seen in the photo below of 1st BW soldiers in 1957. Notice the RSM sitting in the front row holding the pace stick. He wears a #2 dress jacket with a closed collar!

Footnote: Even as early as 1957 it appears that it was the style to wear the glengarry 'straight-up' rather than cocked to the right, an unfortunate loss of elegance in military dress.

[Muerrisch]

I don't think the second from the right in the front row IS a officer's jacket is it? it has no pleats on the pockets and they are not scalloped.

He is also wearing an Imperial Service badge which none of the other officers are. His belt appears to be a slade wallace pattern. Most of the other O/Rs and the man to his right all appear to be wearing pattern '14 leather belts.

I think Tom McCluskey might be our man for this one!

I have scanned the photo at quite high resolution so I can post detail if needed.

Chris

Surely we should attempt a date and place? There are clues: some economy SD jackets but not many, 1914 web, many Imperial Service badges.

I suggest Home, "The Sergeants", and prior to proceeding overseas. As for a date, the cusp of New Year 1915? I.S. badges were fairly quickly discarded on active service, for the same reason that my father never wore his RAFVR badge on service, that the "amateurs" liked to be ascribed regular status. [TF was officially last in rank/status pecking order: regular/special reserve/TF, regardless of seniority in level rank.

This dating, if correct, would make "The WOII" exreme left the Sergeant-Major. Note a man centre standing WITH THE SAME BADGE AND STICKING IT UP THE LENS! In late 1914 training units were allowed [ACIs] two of RSM and two of RQMS if numbers approached 2000 men.

The two seated extreme right are enigmatic, the single lace is as Frogsmile says so the man is surely a First Class Staff Sgt occupying [R]QMS post, and the flank man's "badge" may be a problem with the photo, as no badge that I know of whould be in that position at that sort of date. From position he might be the second RQMS.

This is one of those lovely puzzles that history and the camera leave us with.

Not one to die in a ditch for!

[FROGSMILE]

A most informative post, FROGSMILE. An interesting anomaly is seen in the photo below of 1st BW soldiers in 1957. Notice the RSM sitting in the front row holding the pace stick. He wears a #2 dress jacket with a closed collar!

Footnote: Even as early as 1957 it appears that it was the style to wear the glengarry 'straight-up' rather than cocked to the right, an unfortunate loss of elegance in military dress.

That is extraordinary, in that it is one of the latest examples that I have ever seen of a WO1 in a closed collar SD jacket. In many regiments it had been traditional that the officers paid for the RSM to have a jacket tailored, as there was no official allowance. What does not surprise me at all is that it is the Black Watch in your photo. In my service by far the two most conservative Line Regiments that I had close contact with were the Black Watch and the Royal Welch Fusiliers (in that order of conservatism!).

The WOs dress evolved throughout the period 14-18 and there was a lot of confusion. In some infantry battalions the RSM wore officer quality uniform (usually Regulars), but in Service and TF units he might at best get an ORs SD tailored with posh pockets and cuffs and worn with a sam browne (which unlike his posh jacket was issued) and in many cases not even a posh jacket. The problem was that there was no 'entitlement at Public expense'.

I enclose some associated images, with the RSM of 1 Cheshires circa 1914 as a first example. Note that he is one of only a few regiments to permit the RSM to wear an open collar.

[FROGSMILE]

And here are three much later in the war (1918) with modified ORs SD.

[gordon92]

That is extraordinary, in that it is one of the latest examples that I have ever seen of a WO1 in a closed collar SD jacket. In many regiments it had been traditional that the officers paid for the RSM to have a jacket tailored, as there was no official allowance. What does not surprise me at all is that it is the Black Watch in your photo. In my service by far the two most conservative Line Regiments that I had close contact with were the Black Watch and the Royal Welch Fusiliers (in that order of conservatism!).

The WOs dress evolved throughout the period 14-18 and there was a lot of confusion. In some infantry battalions the RSM wore officer quality uniform (usually Regulars), but in Service and TF units he might at best get an ORs SD tailored with posh pockets and cuffs and worn with a sam browne (which unlike his posh jacket was issued) and in many cases not even a posh jacket. The problem was that there was no 'entitlement at Public expense'.

I enclose some associated images, with the RSM of 1 Cheshires circa 1914 as a first example. Note that he is one of only a few regiments to wear an open collar.

Many thanks for the RSM photos. The open collar SD jacket was only authorized in 1913. So, I wonder if the scarcity of open collar jackets among RSMs was at least partly related to a reluctance to personally pay for re-tailoring if not funded regimentally.

The open collar khaki drill jacket officially authorized in 1913 for officers was seen in photos from India as early as 1906.

[gordon92]

I did not know that Yeomanry units had pipers. The Pipe seemingly impractical for mounted duties.

My wife's 1st Cousin 3 times removed in the bizarre cousin classification schema served in the lovat scouts. His name was Roderick Macleod, but commonly went by Roddy Mor and in fact other than service records he never goes or went by Roderick Macleod. He was also an accomplished Piper although did not serve as one.

He is top picture and second row right.

Roddy Macleod's (4169) service started on 5 March 1912 when he joined the 2nd Lovat Scouts. In October 1914 he was in E Sqdn. He served in Gallipoli, Egypt, Salonika and France. In 1916 he was part of the amalgamation of the 1st and 2nd LS into the 10th Bn (LS) QOCH and in 1917 took a new number 225656. He also contracted Malaria which qualified him for a disability pension.

Joe Sweeney

For Joe Sweeny - Here is a quick history of the Lovat Scouts pipe band from a friend who had a family member that served in the Lovat Scouts:

"During the South African War the Lovat Scouts had no pipe band, but individual pipers took their pipes with them.

When the Lovat Scouts were reformed as two regiments in 1903 they decided to form a pipe band. Each squadron was allowed four pipers, and by 1907-08 they could muster 32 pipers between them. There is a good photograph in the Regimental Museum collection of the Pipes and Drums under Pipe Major Fraser in about 1908.

From about 1908 the pipers wore Full Dress as shown in the photograph of the individual piper, except that they wore dark blue doublets with Inverness flaps. The doublets were superseded by dark blue coatees shortly before the outbreak of war. All the accoutrements were in white metal, and tartan was ‘Hunting’ Fraser for kilt, pipe ribbons and hose.

During World War II Lord Lovat held a Territorial Army commission in the Lovat Scouts, but did not serve with the regiment after early 1940, when he volunteered for service with the commandos. His Piper Bill Millin, who features in various films of the Normandy landings, was not a Lovat Scout but originally a soldier in the 4^th Camerons; and so if he wore the kilt it would have been of the Cameron tartan."

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

So, I wonder if the scarcity of open collar jackets among RSMs was at least partly related to a reluctance to personally pay for re-tailoring if not funded regimentally.

Yes I think it might have partly been due to that factor, but also to the reluctance of many officers to have any OR, even the RSM, in an identical uniform to them. The closed collar gave him the distinction required but was just different enough to maintain the 'distance' that had always been preferred. I suspect that the RSMs themselves were quite relieved to have the very clear silhouette at the neck with no chance of being mistaken (at a distance) for a subaltern.

[Muerrisch]

Is my # 153 broadly agreed, gentlemen?

[FROGSMILE]

Is my # 153 broadly agreed, gentlemen?

Yes I am largely in accord, but with just the offside thought that it 'might' be as late as early 1916, even with the Imperial Service tablets. What is niggling at me is the seemingly large number of WOII with crown badges. I think that the "second ( R )QMS" is wearing the smaller, SSgts crown perhaps because of the shortage of full size badges, it also appear to be brass (gm). Given this preponderance of WOII I am wondering if that battalion was still organised as 8 companies, as so many of the TF were until they arrived in France as late as 1916.

[gordon92]

Is my # 153 broadly agreed, gentlemen?

Yes I am largely in accord, but with just the offside thought that it 'might' be as late as early 1916, even with the Imperial Service tablets. What is niggling at me is the seemingly large number of WOII with crown badges. I think that the "second ( R )QMS" is wearing the smaller, SSgts crown perhaps because of the shortage of full size badges, it also appear to be brass (gm). Given this preponderance of WOII I am wondering if that battalion was still organised as 8 companies, as so many of the TF were until they arrived in France as late as 1916.

I remain perplexed by the man sitting second from left in the front row. He has open collar, Sam Browne, and single line of lace with no cuff rank. Both lower arms are obscured by the men on each side, so we cannot see what, if any, badges are there. I cannot imagine him being anyone other than the RSM.

There are enough details of dress that are proper, e.g., all the visible sporrans have brass cantles which would be expected for Black Watch sergeants after 1904, to reasonably assert that this is a 1st line TF battalion. Through the first quarter of 1915 the 1/4 (City of Dundee), 1/6 (Perthshire), and 1/7 (Fife) were still at home. The 9th (Glasgow Highland) Bn HLI would have already been in France before early 1915.

[FROGSMILE]

I remain perplexed by the man sitting second from left in the front row. He has open collar, Sam Browne, and single line of lace with no cuff rank. Both lower arms are obscured by the men on each side, so we cannot see what, if any, badges are there. I cannot imagine him being anyone other than the RSM.

Yes I think it is reasonable to assume that he is the RSM.

[gordon92]

Here is an interesting one of H Company 4th Cameron Highlanders.

There are a few, but not a lot of, Imperial Service badges including one worn by an officer. Shortly after call-up in 1914?

I count 130 men total. Still the 8 company organization?

Long Lee-Enfields?

On the front row L to R: 3 drummers, next looks like the QMS with 4 inverted chevrons & 8-point star, then the Colour Sgt, the 4 officers, another man with the 4 inverted chevrons - possibly the Drum Major who has been assigned to this company, then 2 sergeants, next to the end someone of unclear rank/appointment ?, and finally the Pipe Major on the far right with his distinctive sporran.

Thoughts?

[4thGordons]

Definitley "long" lees I cannot make out enough detail on this scan to see which variant but judging by the one in the front row left maybe CLLE.

Is there a photographer noted? Looks like a pavillon in the background and the Bedford School pavillion was used as backdrops for lots of Highland Brigade photos in 14-15

Pinched these from [Piper] Richard Galley's Blog http://www.bedfordhighlanders.blogspot.com/

I think there is a pretty good chance it is the same building... and I am fairly certain the 4th Camerons were there

[FROGSMILE]

Here is an interesting one of H Company 4th Cameron Highlanders.

There are a few, but not a lot of, Imperial Service badges including one worn by an officer. Shortly after call-up in 1914?

I count 130 men total. Still the 8 company organization?

Long Lee-Enfields?

On the front row L to R: 3 drummers, next looks like the QMS with 4 inverted chevrons & 8-point star, then the Colour Sgt, the 4 officers, another man with the 4 inverted chevrons - possibly the Drum Major who has been assigned to this company, then 2 sergeants, next to the end someone of unclear rank/appointment ?, and finally the Pipe Major on the far right with his distinctive sporran.

Thoughts?

An evocative and interesting photo. I think you have it right except that I would reverse your assessment of the two 4 chevrons men. I think the Drum Major is closest the drummers (with his parade cane) and the QMS on the far side.

[gordon92]

Definitley "long" lees I cannot make out enough detail on this scan to see which variant but judging by the one in the front row left maybe CLLE.

Is there a photographer noted? Looks like a pavillon in the background and the Bedford School pavillion was used as backdrops for lots of Highland Brigade photos in 14-15

Pinched these from [Piper] Richard Galley's Blog http://www.bedfordhi...s.blogspot.com/

I think there is a pretty good chance it is the same building... and I am fairly certain the 4th Camerons were there

Great detective work, Chris. It certainly looks like the same building to me.

Recruited largely from rural Inverness-shire and the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the 4th Camerons were especially hard hit by the measles epidemic that started in Fall 1914.

Mike

[gordon92]

An evocative and interesting photo. I think you have it right except that I would reverse your assessment of the two 4 chevrons men. I think the Drum Major is closest the drummers (with his parade cane) and the QMS on the far side.

Yes, it definitely makes more sense for the Drum Major to be sitting next to the drummers.

[4thGordons]

Great detective work, Chris. It certainly looks like the same building to me.

Recruited largely from rural Inverness-shire and the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the 4th Camerons were especially hard hit by the measles epidemic that started in Fall 1914.

Mike

Here you go:

http://www.4thgordons.com/BedfordCas.html

[gordon92]

Here is one from immediate pre-War: C Company of the 2nd Bn Highland Light Infantry at Aldershot in 1914.

The sitting front row L to R: a Corporal, next two sergeants, then the Sgt Major, two officers, a man with four inverted chevrons without a badge above - possibly the Orderly Room Sergeant, and then two sergeants.

Would the Sergeant Major be assigned to a Company for administrative purposes?

In perusing the 1914 Clothing Regulations on p. 114 Distinguishing Badges and Chevrons, it is noted that a 'Regimental Quartermaster Serjeant' wears four chevrons with a star. It further delineates that a 'Quartermaster Serjeant' wears four chevrons but with no additional badge. Could someone advise on the difference between a RQMS and QMS in 1914?

[Muerrisch]

Certainly. QMS was a RANK in the scheme of things until May 1915, at which time WO split into I and II, with the QMS all becoming II:

WO x 2 or 3: [s-M, Bandmaster and possibly Schooly],

QMS x 2 or 3: [R]QMS, Orderly Room Sergeant or Clerk or whatever the battalion called the post, and sometimes another, particularly Household Troops.

Below them as "Staff-Sergeants" collectively but not as a rank, various senior NCOs responsible to Adjt or QM for specialisms: Drums, Pipes, Bugles, Pioneers, Cook, Signals, MG, Musketry .......... some of these ranking as, and paid as, C-Sgt, some as Sergeant.

Below them we have the Colour-Sergeants x 8 in the companies.

The S-M was not usually assigned to a company for admin purposes, although I would not bet against it!

[FROGSMILE]

Grumpy has explained it very well. The orderly room's senior post was "rank ranged" from Sgt, through SSgt to QMS. If ranked as Sgt he was ORSgt (ORS), if as SSgt, ORClerk (ORC) and if a QMS (ORQMS). It enabled a man to have a career within that role (starting with Orderly Room Corporal). I suspect that the man with 4 chevrons in your photo is the ORQMS. In very large orderly rooms there was even a WO1 post known as Superintending Clerk, but this did not apply to Line Regiments.

[gordon92]

Certainly. QMS was a RANK in the scheme of things until May 1915, at which time WO split into I and II, with the QMS all becoming II:

WO x 2 or 3: [s-M, Bandmaster and possibly Schooly],

QMS x 2 or 3: [R]QMS, Orderly Room Sergeant or Clerk or whatever the battalion called the post, and sometimes another, particularly Household Troops.

Below them as "Staff-Sergeants" collectively but not as a rank, various senior NCOs responsible to Adjt or QM for specialisms: Drums, Pipes, Bugles, Pioneers, Cook, Signals, MG, Musketry .......... some of these ranking as, and paid as, C-Sgt, some as Sergeant.

Below them we have the Colour-Sergeants x 8 in the companies.

The S-M was not usually assigned to a company for admin purposes, although I would not bet against it!

Grumpy has explained it very well. The orderly room's senior post was "rank ranged" from Sgt, through SSgt to QMS. If ranked as Sgt he was ORSgt (ORS), if as SSgt, ORClerk (ORC) and if a QMS (ORQMS). It enabled a man to have a career within that role (starting with Orderly Room Corporal). I suspect that the man with 4 chevrons in your photo is the ORQMS. In very large orderly rooms there was even a WO1 post known as Superintending Clerk, but this did not apply to Line Regiments.

Thanks to you both for this helpful information.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi Gordon,

The picture of the 2^nd HLI does not look like Aldershot. I think the 2^nd Battalion were in Maida Barracks (red brick). The harled walls and distinctive windows are more reminiscent of Ireland or Scotland – possibly Victoria Barracks, Cork.

I hope this is of use,

Tom McC

[4thGordons]

Tom,

Anything on the pic I posted at No.136

Chris

[gordon92]

Hi Gordon,

The picture of the 2^nd HLI does not look like Aldershot. I think the 2^nd Battalion were in Maida Barracks (red brick). The harled walls and distinctive windows are more reminiscent of Ireland or Scotland – possibly Victoria Barracks, Cork.

I hope this is of use,

Tom McC

Tom,

The 2nd HLI were in Mullingar 1912-1914 moving on to Aldershot in early 1914 according to the chronicle I have. From 1910 to 1912, they were in Cork. In looking at this further, it is likely that the 1914 dating on the photo is mistaken. I have photos from this same series of other companies, two of which are shown in drill order wearing the white jackets and glengarries. In these photos, the sergeants and officers are wearing diced glengarries. The diced versions were abandoned in 1913 at which point all ranks wore the solid green glengarries. Thus, it seems that 1913 would be the latest date for the posted picture.

So, your thesis that the photo was taken in Ireland appears to be correct. Thank you for bringing this up.

Mike