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Remembered Today:

Guide to Sporrans (continued)


gordon92

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Interesting! Thank you. In the Scottish regiments (and perhaps Army-wide)) there was at one time a Full Dress Marching Order. This appeared to involve a full pack with the Slade-Wallace equipment wearing the full dress doublet and full dress headdress. I have never understood the utility of such an outfit. Could you possibly explain further?

It was rarely used but reflects the days before public transport was used to move bodies of troops over any greater distances than could be covered in a day. If a large formation level parade, such as a full dress review, was required within a large area such as those found in India (although conventional full dress was not latterly used in India), then units could be required to march (generally headed by the band and pipes or fifes and drums) to the selected 'parade ground'. This sometimes required an overnight stay at a midway point or staging post. For such long distances the men could be required to transit in marching order so that they had the necessary wherewithal for an overnight routine without excessive use of wagons.

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It was rarely used but reflects the days before public transport was used to move bodies of troops over any greater distances than could be covered in a day. If a large formation level parade, such as a full dress review, was required within a large area such as those found in India (although conventional full dress was not latterly used in India), then units could be required to march (generally headed by the band and pipes or fifes and drums) to the selected 'parade ground'. This sometimes required an overnight stay at a midway point or staging post. For such long distances the men could be required to transit in marching order so that they had the necessary wherewithal for an overnight routine without excessive use of wagons.

Thanks again, FROGSMILE. You are an invaluable resource!

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I continue on to the Lowland regiments and the sporrans worn by their pipers. This begins with the Royal Scots who, of course, were #1 in precedence within the line infantry. It is significant to note that this regiment had a Highland battalion: the 9th (Highlanders) Bn Royal Scots TF.

eef95003402b.jpg The Pipe Major under caption #1 wears a 3-tassel sporran while the piper in caption #6 has a 2-tassel sporran.

f655f39d9c19.jpg 9th (Highlanders) Bn, the "Dandy Ninth."

My archives are pretty thin on the Royal Scots as I do not concentrate on the Lowland regiments. If anyone has some better photos, please do post them.

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This thread seems to be running out of steam, but I will complete the remaining Lowland regiments with photos that feature the sporrans of their pipers.

King's Own Scottish Borderers (KOSB):

KOSB pipers wore the Royal Stuart tartan.

fd7235780879.jpg Pipe major (3 tassels)

641b42f55a16.jpg Piper (2 tassels). This is Piper Daniel Laidlaw who won the VC at Loos September 1915.

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Got this out-of-order.

Almost forgot the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Their pipers dressed in Government tartan at this time. They switched to Dress Erskine sometime in the 1920s. Anybody have the exact year?

7456719a6da9.jpg Pipe Major (left), pipers, and drummers circa 1914

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Got this out-of-order.

Almost forgot the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Their pipers dressed in Government tartan at this time. They switched to Dress Erskine sometime in the 1920s. Anybody have the exact year?

The RSF adopted the Hunting Erskine Tartan relatively late in the day, wearing it only between 1948 and their amalgamation (with HLI) in 1959.

post-599-0-37661400-1340071148_thumb.jpg

post-599-0-72137600-1340071173_thumb.jpg

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And RSF again.

post-599-0-75235800-1340071664_thumb.jpg

post-599-0-42326500-1340071676_thumb.jpg

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The RSF adopted the Hunting Erskine Tartan relatively late in the day, wearing it only between 1948 and their amalgamation (with HLI) in 1959.

Thanks for the excellent images FROGSMILE. Do you have a date and place for the photo of the RSF piper wearing the white doublet?

As regards RSF tartans, besides the Govt tartan there was Dress Erskine and Hunting Erskine. As you have noted, Hunting Erskine was taken into wear for tartan trousers (replacing Govt tartan) approx 1948 and lasted until 1959. The Hunting Erskine trousers can be seen on the RSF Sergt Major in the photo below taken 1955 (last man in front row on right wearing the glengarry) at Edinburgh Castle in front of the Scottish War Memorial; the appearance is somewhat ostentatious. The Dress Erskine, on the other hand, is a red background with green overstripes that was worn by RSF pipers, I thought, beginning in the 1920s. The Dress Erskine kilt and plaid may be seen on the Royal Highland Fusiliers pipe major in the second image below; RHF pipers continued in Dress Erskine after 1959 and are worn even today by pipers of the 2nd Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Mike

c5b1fde9d85f.jpg7d26ffaa743d.jpg

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Thanks for the excellent images FROGSMILE. Do you have a date and place for the photo of the RSF piper wearing the white doublet?

As regards RSF tartans, besides the Govt tartan there was Dress Erskine and Hunting Erskine. As you have noted, Hunting Erskine was taken into wear for tartan trousers (replacing Govt tartan) approx 1948 and lasted until 1959. The Hunting Erskine trousers can be seen on the RSF Sergt Major in the photo below taken 1955 (last man in front row on right wearing the glengarry) at Edinburgh Castle in front of the Scottish War Memorial; the appearance is somewhat ostentatious. The Dress Erskine, on the other hand, is a red background with green overstripes that was worn by RSF pipers, I thought, beginning in the 1920s. The Dress Erskine kilt and plaid may be seen on the Royal Highland Fusiliers pipe major in the second image below; RHF pipers continued in Dress Erskine after 1959 and are worn even today by pipers of the 2nd Bn Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Mike

The RSF piper in white doublet is from circa 1946 when the 1st Battalion were in India (Delhi and then Meerut). The RSF pipers adopted the 'Dress' Erskine tartan in 1928 to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the regiment's formation.

Below is a piper and fusilier from after WW1.

post-599-0-15433600-1340137383_thumb.jpg

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Here's another interesting one for you (bit out of order).

Shoulder title of seated man is 9 V Royal Scots - so I assume 9th Volunteer Battalion (pre TF)

Several kilts and variations of uniform on display.

post-14525-0-42750300-1340140204_thumb.j

post-14525-0-87608300-1340140421_thumb.j

Chris

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Here's another interesting one for you (bit out of order).

Shoulder title of seated man is 9 V Royal Scots - so I assume 9th Volunteer Battalion (pre TF)

Several kilts and variations of uniform on display.

post-14525-0-42750300-1340140204_thumb.j

post-14525-0-87608300-1340140421_thumb.j

Chris

Yes the curved part of the shoulder title reads Highlanders and as you know they became 'the Dandy Ninth' as the only Highland element in the Royal Scots.

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Here's another interesting one for you (bit out of order).

Shoulder title of seated man is 9 V Royal Scots - so I assume 9th Volunteer Battalion (pre TF)

Several kilts and variations of uniform on display.

post-14525-0-42750300-1340140204_thumb.j

post-14525-0-87608300-1340140421_thumb.j

Chris

Chris,

Excellent image of the 5VB RS. By this time they would have been wearing Hunting Stuart kilts. As this tartan has red and yellow overstripes, is this image what would be expected with the orthochromatic film?

Also, did you ever get a chance to look for mention of Aberdeen Cavaliers in the book you had mentioned?

Mike

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The RSF piper in white doublet is from circa 1946 when the 1st Battalion were in India (Delhi and then Meerut). The RSF pipers adopted the 'Dress' (I inadvertently said 'Hunting') Erskine tartan in 1928 to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the regiment's formation.

Below is a piper and fusilier from after WW1.

Thanks for the 1928 dating on the Dress Erskine. The image is indeed post-WW1 as the white buff belt would have been an unlikely accoutrement to the Service Dress Jacket before the war.

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Chris,

Excellent image of the 5VB RS. By this time they would have been wearing Hunting Stuart kilts. As this tartan has red and yellow overstripes, is this image what would be expected with the orthochromatic film?

Also, did you ever get a chance to look for mention of Aberdeen Cavaliers in the book you had mentioned?

Mike

Mike I did go through the index and the rolls (it has quite a few) and I could find no mention of the "Aberdeen Cavaliers" nor of the officer named.

I don't claim it was an exhaustive check (the book is @380 pages!) but I saw no mention in the relevant time period (1859-1907)

Was 5th a Typo here? The shoulder title fairly clearly shows a 9 to my eyes?

I think the image is indeed consistent with orthochromatic emulsion. The similarity between the red and blue on the doublets is a good indicator, in addition to the absence of any striping in the kilt - athough I was not aware of the tartan worn here.

I have another RS I think:

The RS appear to be the only British battalion I have pictures of wearing a leather "Day Sporran" (I think I have some of Canadian Scots wearing them)

post-14525-0-15158100-1340144867_thumb.j

and somewhere a RSF in a kilt (presumably a drummer) which I will post if I find it

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post-14525-0-33638200-1340145050_thumb.j

this is the image of which I was thinking.

RSF

Chris

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Mike I did go through the index and the rolls (it has quite a few) and I could find no mention of the "Aberdeen Cavaliers" nor of the officer named.

I don't claim it was an exhaustive check (the book is @380 pages!) but I saw no mention in the relevant time period (1859-1907)

Was 5th a Typo here? The shoulder title fairly clearly shows a 9 to my eyes?

I think the image is indeed consistent with orthochromatic emulsion. The similarity between the red and blue on the doublets is a good indicator, in addition to the absence of any striping in the kilt - athough I was not aware of the tartan worn here.

I have another RS I think:

The RS appear to be the only British battalion I have pictures of wearing a leather "Day Sporran" (I think I have some of Canadian Scots wearing them)

post-14525-0-15158100-1340144867_thumb.j

and somewhere a RSF in a kilt (presumably a drummer) which I will post if I find it

Chris,

The "5" was definitely a typo.

Thank you for your effort in checking into the Aberdeen Cavaliers. A member over on the Victorian Wars board thinks it more likely that Aberdeen Cavaliers was a jocular expression rather than a specific unit. Carolyn Morrissey, whom I think you know, also is inclined to believe that it merely connotes a group of friends.

The day sporran on the 9th Royal Scot is something that I also have not seen worn in a regular British battalion in that era.

Your second image of the RSF piper is a bit perplexing. From the shoulder titles he is clearly a TF soldier. The 1914-equipment belt and the puttees would date the photo to late 1914 at the earliest. The color of the doublet is puzzling. It is not scarlet and does not appear to be rifle green. I had seen a photo a few years ago of a HLI territorial piper wearing a brown doublet during WW1 at home, and that may be what we are seeing here. The sporran is different, probably a holdover from the unit's VB days. My guess is that this is a soldier of a second or third line TF battalion that is performing in a home defense role or is supplying drafts to the first line TF battalion. In some cases the second line Bn did go overseas as part of an operational division. What do you think?

Mike

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Mike

I had assumed the RSF was wearing a green doublet. There looks to be no difference between the collars/cuffs in terms of colour and no great distinction in colour for the piping/braid.

I was not aware of the existence of brown doublets so I am not sure what those would look like. Were they dark brown or Khaki or......

I would agree with the time frame - late 1914 on, probably mid 1915 on with puttees worn at home(assuming that is where it is take) but that would be guessing, puttees with a doublet is a bit of an odd mix too.

Most of my photos are Gordons but I have picked up a few other odds and ends - which I will get around to digitising at some point - don't think there are many other interesting sporrans though.

Chris

Edit: so here's a weird one.

Wartime photo. Simplified Service Dress.....Martini-Henry rifle!....

post-14525-0-07326100-1340160193_thumb.j

Sporran cantle looks to be a Gordon design with Sphinx on top but......

post-14525-0-31706800-1340160205_thumb.j

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Thanks for the 1928 dating on the Dress Erskine. The image is indeed post-WW1 as the white buff belt would have been an unlikely accoutrement to the Service Dress Jacket before the war.

Actually it is not at all unusual for the buff leather belt (from Slade-Wallace equipment) to be worn with SD before the war. It had for several decades been worn in 'Guard Order' with scarlets (both tunic and frock depending on location and circumstances) and when SD was issued from 1902 it continued to be worn when scarlet undress was largely withdrawn (less in India where scarlet was retained). Even after the 08 web equipment was issued, this continued to be the case, as it was deemed appropriate that the soldiers should undergo the extra effort necessary to prepare (whiten) kit for guard and compete for the traditional 'stick man' selection. Guard Order comprised the belt and one (usually left) ammunition pouch. It was not until between the two world wars that Regular battalions began routinely to use 08 equipment for routine barracks guard. However, in the field on operations, 08 webbing was used when on guard for obvious reasons.

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Your second image of the RSF piper is a bit perplexing. From the shoulder titles he is clearly a TF soldier. The 1914-equipment belt and the puttees would date the photo to late 1914 at the earliest. The color of the doublet is puzzling. It is not scarlet and does not appear to be rifle green. I had seen a photo a few years ago of a HLI territorial piper wearing a brown doublet during WW1 at home, and that may be what we are seeing here.

Mike

I believe he is wearing a Piper Green doublet, an undress uniform issued to all pipers from around 1885. It was also adopted by the pipers of Irish Regiments after they began to form their own pipe bands. It is a lighter colour than Rifle Green and a more rich shade than Archer Green. The doublet was plain coloured with no contrasting piping, although the wings were decorated.

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Mike

I had assumed the RSF was wearing a green doublet. There looks to be no difference between the collars/cuffs in terms of colour and no great distinction in colour for the piping/braid.

I was not aware of the existence of brown doublets so I am not sure what those would look like. Were they dark brown or Khaki or......

I would agree with the time frame - late 1914 on, probably mid 1915 on with puttees worn at home(assuming that is where it is take) but that would be guessing, puttees with a doublet is a bit of an odd mix too.

Most of my photos are Gordons but I have picked up a few other odds and ends - which I will get around to digitising at some point - don't think there are many other interesting sporrans though.

Chris

Edit: so here's a weird one.

Wartime photo. Simplified Service Dress.....Martini-Henry rifle!....

post-14525-0-07326100-1340160193_thumb.j

Sporran cantle looks to be a Gordon design with Sphinx on top but......

post-14525-0-31706800-1340160205_thumb.j

Chris,

Except for one factor I would say that your weird photo is definitely a soldier of the 6th (City of Glasgow) Bn Highland Light Infantry. The white stripes on the kilt are consistent with the wide-sett MacKenzie tartan of the HLI. The three white brushes on the sporran, with one obviously badly restrung, and the shield on the cantle is the sporran of the 6th HLI. I had not previously seen a closeup of the detail on the shield displaying a Sphinx. It has been my understanding that only those regiments that took part in the Egyptian campaign of 1801 were entitled to wear the Sphinx. Neither the 71st nor the 74th are on that list. Of the kilted regiments, the 42nd, 79th, and 92nd were participants in that campaign.

So, the image is most likely a 6HLI soldier. However, I am thrown by the Sphinx. Can someone explain this?

Mike

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Mike

wasn't there an earlier sporran badge for the Gordons (from the 1890s?) like this:

This image from a dealer's site selling a similar badge some time ago:

post-14525-0-26437700-1340208381_thumb.j

Chris

PS Gordons offcers collar badges are also sphinxes aren't they?

The stripe could be explained by the use of panchromatic film and a Gordons kilt so....

This is a commercial photograph from a Blackpool photographer.....

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Mike

wasn't there an earlier sporran badge for the Gordons (from the 1890s?) like this:

This image from a dealer's site selling a similar badge some time ago:

post-14525-0-26437700-1340208381_thumb.j

Chris

PS Gordons offcers collar badges are also sphinxes aren't they?

The stripe could be explained by the use of panchromatic film and a Gordons kilt so....

This is a commercial photograph from a Blackpool photographer.....

Chris,

I have come around to your line of thinking. This is a Gordon Highlander, after all. As you have noted, the stripes are explained by panchromatic film with the sporran hiding the center stripe. As I look at your photo more closely I can see a 92 under the Sphinx. The subject is wearing a mutilated example of sporran #7 in the print below that has the sporran badge you posted (blurry in the scan). This sporran was worn by privates in the 92nd 1855-1881. And, we should add, also worn as a hand-me-down by some TF soldiers into the Great War. Again referring to sporran #7, the one worn by our subject has lost the upper left and lower right white brushes. I think what we have here is a third line TF private of either the 3/4, 3/5, 3/6, or 3/7 Gordon Highlanders. The role of these Bns was to supply drafts to the first line Bns (1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7) and probably also to the second line Bns; see http://www.warpath.o...gts/gordons.htm.

Congratulations on finding this photo. I should not have been surprised, but I was, that pre-1881 sporrans were in in use at home during the Great War; definitely learned something here.

Mike

P.S. - Yes, Sphinx badges were worn on the upper lapels on Officers Service Dress beginning in 1913. A Tiger was worn as a collar badge on full dress doublets by officers and ORs. A silver Sphinx was worn on the feather bonnet by officers of the 92nd pre-1881.

5b0fddedc88e.jpg

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Mike

Thanks for the info.

Given the sporrans you show here aren't the size/design of the tassels more like those on No5 than No7? and if the diagrams you post are approximately to scale it would seem to me the size of the shield badge is closer to that one too.

I think you are probably correct regarding what the picure is of although as far as I can see from my notes (and TLLT) none of the 2 , 3 or Service Battalions werer ever in Blackpool (I understand of course individuals may have been) however what is odd is I have obtained several Gordons pictures and items from the Blackpool area...probably coincidental

Regarding collar officers' badges there seems to have been a short period (1907 to - at least 1909 and possibly a couple of years later) where officers wore a collar badge very similar to the shield seen on the standard GW vintage sporrans.

See attached from a picture of Colonel Lyons at the 1909 camp of the 1/4th Bn.

post-14525-0-32202700-1340232340_thumb.j

Chris

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Mike

Thanks for the info.

Given the sporrans you show here aren't the size/design of the tassels more like those on No5 than No7? and if the diagrams you post are approximately to scale it would seem to me the size of the shield badge is closer to that one too.

I think you are probably correct regarding what the picure is of although as far as I can see from my notes (and TLLT) none of the 2 , 3 or Service Battalions werer ever in Blackpool (I understand of course individuals may have been) however what is odd is I have obtained several Gordons pictures and items from the Blackpool area...probably coincidental

Regarding collar officers' badges there seems to have been a short period (1907 to - at least 1909 and possibly a couple of years later) where officers wore a collar badge very similar to the shield seen on the standard GW vintage sporrans.

See attached from a picture of Colonel Lyons at the 1909 camp of the 1/4th Bn.

post-14525-0-32202700-1340232340_thumb.j

Chris

Mike and Chris, some great information coming out here. It would be a shame if all this was lost. I often think that this site contains enough rare information to make a great book!

Looking at the original photo I cannot help but wonder if the sporran and rifle belonged to the photographer (which would explain the dilapidated state of the former). Both are incongruous and from the way that the soldier is holding the rifle it is clear to me that he is as yet untrained.

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Mike

Thanks for the info.

Given the sporrans you show here aren't the size/design of the tassels more like those on No5 than No7? and if the diagrams you post are approximately to scale it would seem to me the size of the shield badge is closer to that one too.

I think you are probably correct regarding what the picure is of although as far as I can see from my notes (and TLLT) none of the 2 , 3 or Service Battalions werer ever in Blackpool (I understand of course individuals may have been) however what is odd is I have obtained several Gordons pictures and items from the Blackpool area...probably coincidental

Regarding collar officers' badges there seems to have been a short period (1907 to - at least 1909 and possibly a couple of years later) where officers wore a collar badge very similar to the shield seen on the standard GW vintage sporrans.

See attached from a picture of Colonel Lyons at the 1909 camp of the 1/4th Bn.

post-14525-0-32202700-1340232340_thumb.j

Chris

Chris,

From the caption to the print, sporran #5 was a Sergeant's sporran worn 1830-1860 and replaced by sporran #6 which was consequently worn until 1881. I see your point about the shape of the brushes in the photo being closer to sporran #5. I was dissuaded from that because of the dates of wear. With FROGSMILE's subsequent post suggesting that the sporran and rifle were photographer's props, rational reasoning on dates-of-wear may not apply.

Blackpool is puzzling. Lancashire is a long way from Aberdeen.

Your photo of the officer's shield collar badges is my first exposure to these. They appear to be affixed to a service dress jacket pre-1913.

Mike

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