4thGordons Posted 16 March , 2013 Share Posted 16 March , 2013 Thanks Mike- so not Liverpool Scottish then? I am reasonably certain it is an early war picture. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 16 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2013 Thanks Mike- so not Liverpool Scottish then? I am reasonably certain it is an early war picture. Chris Chris, Liverpool Scottish wore a grey and black sporran that would not have shown up with the contrast as seen in the image. I now notice that the subject has belled garter flashes a la Gordons. I believe the 48th Highlanders were affiliated with the Gordons; am away from my reference sources at the moment to be absoluely certain of this last point. Will be back on Monday and confirm this. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 17 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2013 Chris, The 48th Highlanders of Canada were indeed affiliated with the Gordon Highlanders explaining the belled hose flashes evident in your image. Other features of uniform for this regiment are sporran with two white tassels on black ground, red-black hose, Davidson tartan, and diced headdress. The Davidson tartan has red stripes overlaid on the Government tartan; the red stripes would not be seen in a photo of this era. All of these uniform distinctions are consistent with what is seen in your photograph. So, I am reasonably certain that this a Canadian of the 48th Highlanders. See image below of 48th Highlanders circa 1918. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 March , 2013 Share Posted 18 March , 2013 Hmmmm. I am not 100% convinced Mike.You do however make a strong case (and I was aware of the 48th Highlanders connection) but I can't make out double belled flashes - even on the orignal image let alone the scan I posted. I am still not convinced the tassels are white. I have an unfair advantage in seeing the rest of the picture and the tones in there. Compare the white on the Gordons' sporrans with the colours of the tassels.....(see below for full scan) On an early war image (which is what I believe this to be given the Gordons are in Spats and with Sporrans) I would have expeced to see a 48th Highlander with collar brasses and canada or other shoulder titles too I think. It's an Aberdeen photographer BTW. OK well filed under "probable" then -- thanks. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 18 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2013 Hmmmm. I am not 100% convinced Mike.You do however make a strong case (and I was aware of the 48th Highlanders connection) but I can't make out double belled flashes - even on the orignal image let alone the scan I posted. I am still not convinced the tassels are white. I have an unfair advantage in seeing the rest of the picture and the tones in there. Compare the white on the Gordons' sporrans with the colours of the tassels.....(see below for full scan) On an early war image (which is what I believe this to be given the Gordons are in Spats and with Sporrans) I would have expeced to see a 48th Highlander with collar brasses and canada or other shoulder titles too I think. It's an Aberdeen photographer BTW. OK well filed under "probable" then -- thanks. Cheers Chris Yes, I see your point Chris. What would a 48th Highlander be doing posing with three Gordons in Aberdeen? There is another interesting aberration in the photo of the full group. The fellow standing on the left (facing) with his hand on the shoulder of our questionable character has a strange looking badge on his glengarry. There appears to be a protruding orb in the center. Any ideas on this badge? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 March , 2013 Share Posted 18 March , 2013 I think it is a reflection from the "stag's heid" on the Gordons badge. The photo is lit from high right (behind/ alongside tha camera) and the same effect (less dramatic) can be seen on the man to his left. It is made more marked by the shallow depth of field which means the men at the back are slightly out of focus and thus the reflection is more blurred. Given his sporran (and the clearly visible Gordons badge upon it) I am confident he is a Gordon. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking_raid Posted 19 March , 2013 Share Posted 19 March , 2013 Here are some pics of the Newfoundland Highlanders, which was a pre-WW1 paramilitary group that feed into the Newfoundland regiment. I believe they worn a tartan like the Gordon Highlanders. http://www.heritage.nf.ca/greatwar/gallery/paramilitary/enlarge/big_g1418.html PS. I'd love for others to comment on my tunic question also in this forum from earlier today. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 20 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2013 Here are some pics of the Newfoundland Highlanders, which was a pre-WW1 paramilitary group that feed into the Newfoundland regiment. I believe they worn a tartan like the Gordon Highlanders. http://www.heritage..../big_g1418.html PS. I'd love for others to comment on my tunic question also in this forum from earlier today. cheers Had not previously been aware of the Newfoundland Highlanders. Indeed, aspects of their dress are similar to the Gordons.....sporran pattern (different badge), yellow facings, belled garter flashes, and probably Gordon tartan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Mike Any chance of comment on this lot ? I'm all to cock on it - were it not for the Slouch hats I'd be thinking of Liverpool Scottish as a possibility. No other clues other than the image itself. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 I would think that Liverpool Scottish might be a reasonable guess! Did they (or one of the predecessor Volunteer Battalions) serve in South Africa? It was reasonably common that slouch/bush hats continued to be worn in the years immediately after the Boer War by units that had fought there. I have several pictures of Gordons from this period wearing them. Actually something in the back of my mind is suggesting that there was a small contingent of volunteers from the Liverpool Scots and that they were attached to or served with the 1Bn Gordons....although this is a dim recollection. If so that might provide the link to the Bush hats. Some elements that might help dating the picture-- on the original can you see if the men are wearing webbing equipment? (ie a version of the 1908 pattern) as that would give us a not earlier than... date I am fairly confident that the rifles they have are Charger-Loading modifications of the Lee-Enfield (CLLE) as I believe I can make out the charger bridge on the rifle of the man on the end of the rank and also all the rifles appear to have sight protector wings on the foresight (which was needed when the adjustable foresight was added to the CLLE) On the basis of these two elements I would suggest the picture might date from 1908-1912. Give or take. Interested to hear what Mike thinks. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 and looks like England in summer .......... probably a railway bridge in background? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Chris Thanks for all of the detail, as with you I'll be very interested of Mike's eye. I had wondered if the WO at end was wearing a respirator bag which would shift the date and Grumpy Certainly looks to be a railway bridge. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Chris I had wondered if the WO at end was wearing a respirator bag which would shift the date Tim I don't think its a respirator bag - I think it is probably a version of the "GS haversack" as used with the 1903 Bandolier Equipment (or an Officer's or Territorial version thereof) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Agreed, yours makes more sense. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Hi, I have a very similar photo taken in 1913 on the Isle of Man where the sporrans are definitely Liverpool Scottish. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Hi, I have a very similar photo taken in 1913 on the Isle of Man where the sporrans are definitely Liverpool Scottish. regards John Thank you John - we seem to be heading in that direction. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyneside Chinaman Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Hi, here it is you can clearly see the King's Cap badge on the sporran and note both slouch hats and glengarry's are worn. Two corrections it was 1910 not 1913 and was posted to not from the Isle of Man it was posted in Lancaster wrote the other post before checking. regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Many thanks John and Chris. I'm convinced ! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 27 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Mike Any chance of comment on this lot ? I'm all to cock on it - were it not for the Slouch hats I'd be thinking of Liverpool Scottish as a possibility. No other clues other than the image itself. Tim Tim, I think your instincts in identifying this group as Liverpool Scottish are correct. The distinctive sporran with black tassels on a grey ground are evident as are the white stripes of the Forbes tartan. As for the slouch hats, the Liverpool Scottish did send a detachment to South Africa after their founding in 1900, and these are the men who are possibly in this photograph. Perhaps, one of the forum experts on weapons could weigh in on whether the rifles are consistent with a 1901-1902 dating hypothesis. Lee-Metfords? I note that 4th Gordons thinks they are Lee-Enfields, so perhaps the date is post-1902. Tyneside Chinaman also seems to think that this is a later vintage photo, but I cannot make out 1903 equipment in the original image. Hope this helps. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 Another post card of the Liverpool Scottish wearing slouch hats at camp at Caerwys North Wales in 1909 P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 March , 2013 Share Posted 27 March , 2013 (edited) I cannot make out the 03 equipment on the original photo -- and the equipment is not standard 03 pattern on the second photo posted by John (no bandoliers for example) it may be a Territorial Pattern of equipment. I am however almost certain they are Charger Loading Lee-Enfields MkI* rifles and these were officially approved in 1908, so I am happy this is a very similar date to the second picture, that is to say around 1910. Chris Edit: In response to pbrydon's post above that just popped up. The equipment here looks similar - they appear to have a GS haversack but a leather beltand ammunition pouch similar to the earlier valise equipment (with a distinctive circular canteen also slung over the shoulder) I suspect this is a TF pattern of equipment. I wonder if John Thorne might be able to identify it The man at the center with the pipe in the most recent picture has his rifle slung differently (from foward of the magazine to muzzle - in the older style used on Sniders and Martini-Henrys so it is possible he has an earlier mark of rifle. Edited 27 March , 2013 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 28 March , 2013 Share Posted 28 March , 2013 Tim, I think your instincts in identifying this group as Liverpool Scottish are correct. The distinctive sporran with black tassels on a grey ground are evident as are the white stripes of the Forbes tartan. As for the slouch hats, the Liverpool Scottish did send a detachment to South Africa after their founding in 1900, and these are the men who are possibly in this photograph. Hope this helps. Mike Certainly does, Mike. Many thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjd Posted 10 June , 2013 Share Posted 10 June , 2013 Just thought these photos, showing front & back, of my grandfather's sporran might be of interest. He has written on it his name and battalion Pte E Rowles, 4th Battalion Cameron Highlanders. He served with the 4/Battalion from Oct 1914 - c.July 1915. So the sporran no doubt dates from that period. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 11 June , 2013 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2013 Just thought these photos, showing front & back, of my grandfather's sporran might be of interest. He has written on it his name and battalion Pte E Rowles, 4th Battalion Cameron Highlanders. He served with the 4/Battalion from Oct 1914 - c.July 1915. So the sporran no doubt dates from that period. John A very nice and significant artifact, John. Thank you for posting. What happened to your grandfather after July 1915? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjd Posted 11 June , 2013 Share Posted 11 June , 2013 Hello Mike My grandfather (Edward Rowles 2537) was wounded in June 1915, at I believe Givenchy, blown out of trench by shell and had shrapnel wounds to head, arms etc (some pieces he carried throughout his life)and a machine gun wound to his neck but he recovered and was transferred to Lovat Scouts by August 1915, when he married. He appears to have served with Lovat Scouts until early in 1918 but was then transferred to 5/Battalion Cameron Highlanders and finished the war with them as part of the occupying force in the Ruhr. He was discharged from army on 23/02/1919 at Perth. For some reason my grandfather seemed to have retained his Cameron dress uniform. I also have his spats and glengarry (can photograph if of interest)and fragments of his kilt (I believe moths got most of it many years ago). My mother made my Teddy Bear a kilt from it when I was a small boy, a piece of this is now with one of my granddaughters! I used to have his service medals but these were stolen c. 1979 but I didn't notice until sometime after the event. I have several photos of my grandfather in uniform but none of him wearing full dress uniform with sporran. However, I do have one of my grandmother (Annie Alice Grist nee Rowles) wearing it, which judging from the quality of the photo my grandfather may have carried in his pocket. I attach this. Also I have a photo of my Great-uncle Albert Grist dressed in a child sized Scottish uniform taken during WWI, which I attach (can't make out insignia but not Cameron H). Besides his uncle (my grandfather) two of his brothers also served in 4/Camerons (Joseph Grist and George Grist). I have another photo of Albert in same outfit standing next to his brother Dave, in WWI uniform of RA (can add if of interest) Hope this of interest John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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