Guide to Sporrans (continued)

[gordon92]

What a watershed 'Gathering' that must have been. The calm before the storm.

I especially like this image (enclosed) of Seaforth drummers in Edinburgh Castle, seemingly in the late 1890s. It also shows clearly how the side drums were carried on the march and there are no sporrans.

Interesting photo. Thank you for posting. Yes, no sporrans are evident. If worn in the usual position, a sporran would interfere with the drummer's movements. On parade, the drummer's sporran would be worn in the rear of the body over the left buttock.

It is worthy of noting that Seaforth drummers wore red hackles, as seen in your photo, and the military band also wore red hackles. A paraphrase of an interesting story from a friend who was Regimental Secretary of The Queen's Own Highlanders (Seaforth & Camerons): In one of the years just after WW2, King George VI arrived at Ballater for the summer residence at Balmoral. He was met in the station square by a guard of the Seaforth Highlanders. This included the military band who had just been placed back into scarlet and had red hackles in the feather bonnets. The King stated that only The Black Watch were entitled to wear red hackles, this remark possibly in deference to the Queen Consort who was Colonel-in-Chief of The Black Watch. Not wishing to get on the wrong side of KG VI, the band changed into white hackles (temporarily) even though the red hackles originated with the band of the 72nd from early in the 19th century.

Concerning Highland Brigade Gatherings, here is a photo of Pipe Majors (officially Sergeant Pipers) at this event in Agra 1912. The Gordon Highlanders always dressed their Pipe Majors more ornately (some would say ostentatiously) than the other regiments.

Would you know the year that the titles of Drum Major, Pipe Major, Bugle Major were officially restored? 1920s?

[FROGSMILE]

Would you know the year that the titles of Drum Major, Pipe Major, Bugle Major were officially restored? 1920s?

Yes the order to restore the titles was issued in 1928. As you know, Pipe Major was a later appointment than Drum Major and generally followed similar fortunes.

It is probable that the function of the Drum Major, but not the appointment, has existed as long as there have been drummers. Originally, his role was that of senior drummer on parade, beating his own drum rather than leading with his familiar staff. Because each drummer paraded with his company, it was not until the 'band of musick' came into being that he was always required to march in front.

As a result of putting down his sticks to take up a staff, the Drum Major needed a distinctive cross-belt, as described in a military treatise of 1786; '... the loops on the Drum-major's Belt to be entirely on the left Side, as he should make a Cross of it with his Sword Belt, and carry his sticks constantly in the Loops, as a Badge of Office when on Duty', and the sticks '... should be of Ebony tipt with Silver, it being part of the Foppery to be allowed in his Appointments, for no other purpose, but merely shew.' [bennett Cuthbertson, A System for the Compleat Interior Management and economy of a Battalion of Infantry, Dublin, 1768, p123-24]

References to the office of Drum Major appear as early as the 1590s, but the rank does not appear on regimental establishments of the early seventeenth century. During the Commonwealth, a particularly low period for the art of drumming, the appointment seems to have been lost. At the Restoration, only the Foot Guards, and later the Royal Artillery, appear to have had official blessing for a Drum Major. The marching regiments seem to have gone without an official Drum Major until 1810, although one existed in practice, when an extra sergeant was allowed to hold that position. Hitherto, the senior was always shown in returns in the Grenadier Company among the drummer and fifers with the suffix 'D.M.'. Between 1881 and 1928 the time-honoured title was abolished in favour of 'sergeant drummer' although the holder continued to enjoy the dress and privileges of a Staff Sergeant.

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, your history of the Drum Major title and appointment read with much interest.

[gordon92]

Lovat Scouts:

This Yeomanry unit was raised in 1899 by the 14th Lord Lovat, Simon Joseph Fraser.

Lovat Scouts piper; Hunting Fraser Ancient tartan; Balmoral of blue and white dicing.

Willie Ross, renowned composer and PM of the 2nd Scots Guards, was invalided from the regular Army in 1917 becoming PM of the Lovat Scouts 1921-1923.

It was Piper Bill Millin who was depicted in The Longest Day as the piper of The Brigadier Lord Lovat (15th Lord Lovat). Millin was said to have been wearing a 79th tartan kilt that day. The Lovat Scouts were affiliated with the Cameron Highlanders.

[gordon92]

Found this image of a uniform that was for sale at auction some time ago belonging to Piper John Strachan of the 2nd Tyneside Scottish. The sporran, as well as the entire uniform, are positively beautiful. The crossbelt is incorrectly mounted over the left shoulder in the photo.

The full outfit was estimated on the auction site to bring £350 - £450, but it did not sell. I cannot imagine why this was not snapped up at this price.

[4thGordons]

Another puzzler. This does not appear to be a pattern shown yet in the thread. Its a wartime image and a TF unit but which?

Chris

[Joe Sweeney]

Lovat Scouts:

This Yeomanry unit was raised in 1899 by the 14th Lord Lovat, Simon Joseph Fraser.

Lovat Scouts piper; Hunting Fraser Ancient tartan; Balmoral of blue and white dicing.

Willie Ross, renowned composer and PM of the 2nd Scots Guards, was invalided from the regular Army in 1917 becoming PM of the Lovat Scouts 1921-1923.

It was Piper Bill Millin who was depicted in The Longest Day as the piper of The Brigadier Lord Lovat (15th Lord Lovat). Millin was said to have been wearing a 79th tartan kilt that day. The Lovat Scouts were affiliated with the Cameron Highlanders.

I did not know that Yeomanry units had pipers. The Pipe seemingly impractical for mounted duties.

My wife's 1st Cousin 3 times removed in the bizarre cousin classification schema served in the lovat scouts. His name was Roderick Macleod, but commonly went by Roddy Mor and in fact other than service records he never goes or went by Roderick Macleod. He was also an accomplished Piper although did not serve as one.

He is top picture and second row right.

Roddy Macleod's (4169) service started on 5 March 1912 when he joined the 2nd Lovat Scouts. In October 1914 he was in E Sqdn. He served in Gallipoli, Egypt, Salonika and France. In 1916 he was part of the amalgamation of the 1st and 2nd LS into the 10th Bn (LS) QOCH and in 1917 took a new number 225656. He also contracted Malaria which qualified him for a disability pension.

Joe Sweeney

[gordon92]

Another puzzler. This does not appear to be a pattern shown yet in the thread. Its a wartime image and a TF unit but which?

Chris

I have not seen this pattern of sporran before. The belt furniture is as would be expected for a Black Watch piper. My first conjecture would a special pattern sporran worn by a pipe major of a BW TF Bn. In at least the 6th (Perthshire) Bn Black Watch TF, pipers wore a leather cantled sporran and not the brass cantle worn by regular pipers. See photo below of 6BW c1910. The star badge on the sporran in your photo in place of the St. Andrew badge may be a distinction for the pipe major in this TF or possibly an earlier VB after the introduction of service dress. There is some possibility this could be the 9HLI TF or a Colonial Bn affiliated with the BW.

Does the rest of the photo show other pipers or ORs which may have more clues? If so, could you post the full photo?

[gordon92]

I did not know that Yeomanry units had pipers. The Pipe seemingly impractical for mounted duties.

My wife's 1st Cousin 3 times removed in the bizarre cousin classification schema served in the lovat scouts. His name was Roderick Macleod, but commonly went by Roddy Mor and in fact other than service records he never goes or went by Roderick Macleod. He was also an accomplished Piper although did not serve as one.

He is top picture and second row right.

Roddy Macleod's (4169) service started on 5 March 1912 when he joined the 2nd Lovat Scouts. In October 1914 he was in E Sqdn. He served in Gallipoli, Egypt, Salonika and France. In 1916 he was part of the amalgamation of the 1st and 2nd LS into the 10th Bn (LS) QOCH and in 1917 took a new number 225656. He also contracted Malaria which qualified him for a disability pension.

Joe Sweeney

Joe,

Thank you for the excellent pics and history. In short, I do not have a firm answer to your question. As far as I know the pipe band was not mounted. You probably know that the Lovat Scouts were disbanded in part, reformed a number of times and functioned in various dismounted roles including that of a sniper unit. I do know someone who can address your query, and I shall email him first thing tomorrow. Meanwhile, I enclose a photo of LS pipers on the ship returning from S. Africa.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

I stumbled upon this rather unusual photo of (presumably given the kilt) a RSF piper and thought that I would share it here.

[4thGordons]

Yes probably plenty of clues here....

[gordon92]

I stumbled upon this rather unusual photo of (presumably given the kilt) a RSF piper and thought that I would share it here.

Thank you for sharing this. He indeed looks to be a RSF piper. He appears to be a regular with the shoulder title surmounted by a grenade with no sign of a 'T.' The hose and multiple belled hose flashes are proper for a RSF piper. The sporran is perplexing. Every photo of a RSF piper I have ever seen displays a sporran of black tassels on a white ground. Wartime exigency, perhaps?

[gordon92]

Yes probably plenty of clues here....

Undoubtedly British and a TF battalion given the prolific display of the Imperial Service badges over the right breast pocket. Likely is a Black Watch battalion but possibly the 9HLI. The eight men sitting in the front row are interesting. Going L to R is a Class 2 Warrant Office, then probably the RSM with his sleeve badges obscured, next the Adjutant, the CO, 2IC, then a Captain (why in pantaloons instead of a kilt?), then a man wearing an officer's jacket with no sleeve rank - probably the quartermaster given the black belt, and a man at the end with an unidentifiable small badge on his sleeve below the elbow (possibly the QMS although the badge does not fit?).

[4thGordons]

then a man wearing an officer's jacket with no sleeve rank - probably the quartermaster given the black belt, and a man at the end with an unidentifiable small badge on his sleeve below the elbow (possibly the QMS although the badge does not fit?).

I don't think the second from the right in the front row IS a officer's jacket is it? it has no pleats on the pockets and they are not scalloped.

He is also wearing an Imperial Service badge which none of the other officers are. His belt appears to be a slade wallace pattern. Most of the other O/Rs and the man to his right all appear to be wearing pattern '14 leather belts.

I think Tom McCluskey might be our man for this one!

I have scanned the photo at quite high resolution so I can post detail if needed.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for sharing this. He indeed looks to be a RSF piper. He appears to be a regular with the shoulder title surmounted by a grenade with no sign of a 'T.' The hose and multiple belled hose flashes are proper for a RSF piper. The sporran is perplexing. Every photo of a RSF piper I have ever seen displays a sporran of black tassels on a white ground. Wartime exigency, perhaps?

I cannot comment on his sporran but everything else seems correct.

There is apparently evidence the he subsequently served with the 15th Scottish Rifles.

On the back of the card reads: Pte H Munroe (?) 316022 15th Scottish Rifles Walmer, Deal, Kent, Saturday Oct 19th 1917.

That seems very odd and might be an error of the writer.

[FROGSMILE]

Undoubtedly British and a TF battalion given the prolific display of the Imperial Service badges over the right breast pocket. Likely is a Black Watch battalion but possibly the 9HLI. The eight men sitting in the front row are interesting. Going L to R is a Class 2 Warrant Office, then probably the RSM with his sleeve badges obscured, next the Adjutant, the CO, 2IC, then a Captain (why in pantaloons instead of a kilt?), then a man wearing an officer's jacket with no sleeve rank - probably the quartermaster given the black belt, and a man at the end with an unidentifiable small badge on his sleeve below the elbow (possibly the QMS although the badge does not fit?).

The officers in pantaloons are all mounted (see spurs) and so did not wear the kilt.

The WO2 was not introduced until 1915 and before that date the Warrant Officer - Sergeant Major (RSM from 1915 but not before) wore the large crown. CSMs wore three chevrons with the large (as opposed to later the small) crown above.

I think you are correct though and that the photo therefore dates from late 1915 or, early 1916.

The man seated second from right in the front row has an economy ORs SD jacket that had been tailored and is wearing the brown leather "sword belt staff sergeant" but without carriage (i.e. the 2 sword slings). The locket for that belt was the same as for the Slade Wallace, for which it was (and still is) a derivative. I imagine that he is the QMS.

The portly officer (Captain) seated far right is almost certainly the QM.

[4thGordons]

I have only just realised -- aside from the officers -- it appears almost everyone in the photo is a Sgt!

So what sort of gathering (apart from being a bit scary) would have 35(?) Sergeants? would this be all the battalion seargeants prior to embarkation perhaps?

Chris

Edit: the man far right with some sort of badge above his stripes seems to be the only man with a lanyard.

[FROGSMILE]

I have only just realised -- aside from the officers -- it appears almost everyone in the photo is a Sgt!

So what sort of gathering (apart from being a bit scary) would have 35(?) Sergeants? would this be all the battalion seargeants prior to embarkation perhaps?

Chris

Edit: the man far right with some sort of badge above his stripes seems to be the only man with a lanyard.

It is the Serjeants' Mess gathered with the battalion staff officers at front. Later re-titled in most (but not all) battalions as the Warrant Officers' and Sergeants' Mess.

The lanyard is not significant in this case.

[4thGordons]

The lanyard is not significant in this case.

I would have thought the fact that only one man out of the whole group has one would have indicated some sort of significance to its presence (as opposed to a sartorial affectation)

What to you think the badge is?

It looks a bit like a Farrier's badge but I have no idea if it might have been worn in that position.

Chris

EDIT

Here is a detail with more of the badge - he appears to be wearing a web version of the P1903 belt with a bayonet also

Also visible on this crop the man second from the end (who we discussed above) appears to have a single band around the sleeve of his Service Dress jacket just visible in the bottom right of the crop

[gordon92]

The man seated second from right in the front row has an economy ORs SD jacket that had been tailored and is wearing the brown leather "sword belt staff sergeant" but without carriage (i.e. the 2 sword slings). The locket for that belt was the same as for the Slade Wallace, for which it was (and still is) a derivative. I imagine that he is the QMS.

The second man from the right is a bit puzzling. If he is the QMS, would we not expect to see on his lower sleeve a Crown within a wreath (post-1915) or the four inverted chevrons (pre-1915)?

[gordon92]

I would have thought the fact that only one man out of the whole group has one would have indicated some sort of significance to its presence (as opposed to a sartorial affectation)

What to you think the badge is?

It looks a bit like a Farrier's badge but I have no idea if it might have been worn in that position.

Chris

EDIT

Here is a detail with more of the badge - he appears to be wearing a web version of the P1903 belt with a bayonet also

Also visible on this crop the man second from the end (who we discussed above) appears to have a single band around the sleeve of his Service Dress jacket just visible in the bottom right of the crop

Chris,

The man standing on the far right is wearing a trade badge over his chevrons. It could be a signals badge or possibly a pioneer's badge. Not enough resolution for me to tell.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

The second man from the right is a bit puzzling. If he is the QMS, would we not expect to see on his lower sleeve a Crown within a wreath (post-1915) or the four inverted chevrons (pre-1915)?

In 1915 the QMS was given the same badge as the CSM as both were WO2. It was not until 1918 that the crown within wreath was adopted in order to give the QMS a 'unique' badge just as he had previously had with the 4 inverted chevrons and 8 pointed star that he had lost in 1915.

[FROGSMILE]

Chris,

The man standing on the far right is wearing a trade badge over his chevrons. It could be a signals badge or possibly a pioneer's badge. Not enough resolution for me to tell.

Mike

Those are brass (gm) crossed axes and he is the Pioneer Sergeant.

[FROGSMILE]

I would have thought the fact that only one man out of the whole group has one would have indicated some sort of significance to its presence (as opposed to a sartorial affectation)

What to you think the badge is?

It looks a bit like a Farrier's badge but I have no idea if it might have been worn in that position.

Chris

EDIT

Here is a detail with more of the badge - he appears to be wearing a web version of the P1903 belt with a bayonet also

Also visible on this crop the man second from the end (who we discussed above) appears to have a single band around the sleeve of his Service Dress jacket just visible in the bottom right of the crop

He is the Pioneer Sergeant. The signals badge was a little smaller and had a different, more squat, appearance. It is quite likely that the lanyard is securing his clasp knife, if any man would make a point of carrying one it would be the Pioneer Sergeant....a man of tools!

He is wearing a bayonet as a mark of being on duty (known in the regulations as a side arm), which was standard practice for infantry battalions and acted as a badge of office (this practice continued between the wars and up until relatively recent times too). He is probably the battalion orderly sergeant of the day. Scarlet sashes were not worn with khaki serge until the 1920s, although they were worn with KD.

The single band of lace is a hangover from the old 1st Class Staff Sergeants (originally the Sgt Major (later RSM) and the QMS).

[gordon92]

He is the Pioneer Sergeant. The signals badge was a little smaller and had a different, more squat, appearance.

He is wearing a bayonet as a mark of being on duty (known in the regulations as a side arm), which was standard for infantry battalions. He is probably the battalion orderly sergeant of the day. Scarlet sashes were not worn with khaki serge until the 1920s, although they were worn with KD.

The single band of lace is a hangover from the old 1st Class Staff Sergeants (originally the Sgt Major (later RSM) and the QMS).

The man on the left with the Sam Browne belt appears to be the Sgt Major. The Black Watch allowed their Sgt Majors most of the uniform distinctions of an officer. See example below.