Guide to Sporrans (continued)

[gordon92]

Mike and Chris, some great information coming out here. It would be a shame if all this was lost. I often think that this site contains enough rare information to make a great book!

Looking at the original photo I cannot help but wonder if the sporran and rifle belonged to the photographer (which would explain the dilapidated state of the former). Both are incongruous and from the way that the soldier is holding the rifle it is clear to me that he is as yet untrained.

FROGSMILE, your hypothesis that the rifle and sporran were photographer's props is certainly plausible. A.E. Haswell-Miller, noted artist of Scottish miliary dress, has advised that one should be wary of any dress feature seen in a studio-posed photograph (my paraphrase) for the reason you have stated.

Mike

[4thGordons]

He may have been thinking of shots like this!

I have no idea what is going on here...and as was pointed out when I posted this some time before...I probably don't want to!

Edit: I have a dug out a couple more pictures that I am unsure about but I don't want to mess up the order of the sporrans/regiments posted here. Perhaps I should start a new thread?

[FROGSMILE]

FROGSMILE, your hypothesis that the rifle and sporran were photographer's props is certainly plausible. A.E. Haswell-Miller, noted artist of Scottish miliary dress, has advised that one should be wary of any dress feature seen in a studio-posed photograph (my paraphrase) for the reason you have stated.

Mike

That is very true, but one should also be very wary of attributing things that are not immediately understood to 'photographers props', as some are wont to do. A good example is the oft quoted man in SD with swagger cane/stick which must then be a photographers prop, when in fact it was a standard part of a soldiers 'walking-out-dress' from late Victorian to post WW1 times.

[gordon92]

He may have been thinking of shots like this!

I have no idea what is going on here...and as was pointed out when I posted this some time before...I probably don't want to!

Edit: I have a dug out a couple more pictures that I am unsure about but I don't want to mess up the order of the sporrans/regiments posted here. Perhaps I should start a new thread?

Do not be concerned about being disruptive. Please post the pictures either on this thread or on a new thread, whichever is more convenient for you.

The photo of the Gordon Cpl was definitely worth a chuckle.

[gordon92]

Still one more Lowland Regiment to go: The Cameronians/Scottish Rifles.

As I suspect all are aware, the 1st Bn was The Cameronians. All other Bns were the Scottish Rifles. This was one of the 1881 "shotgun marriages." The original partner for the 26th was the 74th, but all had to be rearranged when the 79th refused amalgamation with the 42nd.

The pipes, drums, and bugles of 1st Bn The Cameronians in India. Pipers had a sporran consisting of two white tassels on a black ground. Cameronian pipers retained the old glengarry badge of the pre-1881 26th Cameronians. Anyone have a better picture of a Cameronian piper?

So that they would not be confused with the 1st Bn, pipers of the 2nd Bn The Scottish Rifles devised their own sporran in 1881: three black tassels on a grey ground. 2nd Bn pipers wore the standard post-1881 regimental badge on the glengarry. The 90th Perthshire Light Infantry did not have a pipe band prior to 1881.

[4thGordons]

OK, so here are three that I am uncertain about.

This looks like it may be a piper - perhaps KOSB?

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Still one more Lowland Regiment to go: The Cameronians/Scottish Rifles.

As I suspect all are aware, the 1st Bn was The Cameronians. All other Bns were the Scottish Rifles. This was one of the 1881 "shotgun marriages." The original partner for the 26th was the 74th, but all had to be rearranged when the 79th refused amalgamation with the 42nd. The pipes, drums, and bugles of 1st Bn The Cameronians in India. Pipers had a sporran consisting of two white tassels on a black ground. Cameronian pipers retained the old glengarry badge of the pre-1881 26th Cameronians. Anyone have a better picture of a Cameronian piper? So that they would not be confused with the 1st Bn, pipers of the 2nd Bn The Scottish Rifles devised their own sporran in 1881: three black tassels on a grey ground. 2nd Bn pipers wore the standard post-1881 regimental badge on the glengarry. The 90th Perthshire Light Infantry did not have a pipe band prior to 1881.

Here are a two from 1st battalion, the pair of pipers dating from 1895.

[gordon92]

Here are a two from 1st battalion, the pair of pipers dating from 1895.

Excellent image of the two 1895 pipers. This enormous sporran, dating from prior to 1881, was eventually reduced in size. The Douglas tartan had been restored to the Cameronians in 1891 after the regiment had been in the Government tartan for 10 years.

[gordon92]

OK, so here are three that I am uncertain about.

This looks like it may be a piper - perhaps KOSB?

Chris

Regarding the first photo, there are three regiments during this era whose pipers wore Royal Stuart tartan: The Scots Guards, KOSB, and Black Watch. It is definitely not the Black Watch as indicated by the cap badge and sporran. Scots Guards pipers wore a 3-tassel sporran and diced hose. The cap badge could be KOSB. KOSB pipers wore 2-tasseled sporrans; and this could be a simplified sporran worn by a TF or Service Bn. KOSB pipers also wore, at times, tartan hose which is on display in this picture.

So, I agree this is a KOSB piper.

The 2nd and 3rd pictures are more puzzling as both appear to be displaying the same pattern of sporran. The red-white diced hose on both narrows the choice to the Seaforth or Argylls. The slopiness of the uniforms, particularly the misalignment of the hose, suggests that these are not regular soldiers.

The 2nd Photo: Appears to be wearing a glengarry of Sutherland dicing. Assuming panchromatic film, the facings on the doublet could be yellow consistent with the ASH. The sporran is similar to that worn by an ASH bandsman. No spats? So, the preponderance of evidence suggests an Argyll & Sutherland Highlander but not a regular.

The 3rd Photo: He is wearing a red frock, and the cuffs would also be red. If a regular Bn, the frock would be worn overseas but could be worn at home by a VB or TF. The facing color would only be included on the collar; and, if orthochromatic film, this does not tell us much. The glengarry is red-white-green. He is wearing the same sporran as the man in the 2nd photo. Curiously, his rank insignia of four chevrons pointed down is indicative of a 1st class staff sergeant, but I thought this insignia was discontinued in 1881 in the regular Army; IIRC it was retained longer in the VBs. Perhaps, someone else could comment on the rank insignia. These uniform features do not add up for me. I will have to admit defeat on this one, Chris.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent image of the two 1895 pipers. This enormous sporran, dating from prior to 1881, was eventually reduced in size. The Douglas tartan had been restored to the Cameronians in 1891 after the regiment had been in the Government tartan for 10 years.

And two from the 2nd Battalion showing the pipe banners (associated I believe with Perth) and dark sporrans fairly well despite the smaller than ideal image. The man in centre of the group and the man in the individual photo are both Pipe majors. Notice their rectangular belt buckles and superior sporran cantles.

[FROGSMILE]

Also this pre 1881 but post 1874 (crown collar badges) soldier is a bit of a mystery, but could he be 26th?

[gordon92]

Also this pre 1881 but post 1874 (crown collar badges) soldier is a bit of a mystery, but could he be 26th?

Great images of the 2nd Scottish Rifles, FROGSMILE. I see they dressed the Pipe Major like an officer. His cantle is exquisite, and the sporran would be a prize collectible today.

Regarding your mystery soldier, are you sure this is 1874-1881? He looks like the 1st VB Cameron Highlanders, which was the only Cameron VB. The collar badges and sporran badge appear to be a Crown atop a thistle. Grierson says this uniform was worn 1893-1908. That would be my assessment. Is the rifle a long Lee-Enfield?

[FROGSMILE]

Great images of the 2nd Scottish Rifles, FROGSMILE. I see they dressed the Pipe Major like an officer. His cantle is exquisite, and the sporran would be a prize collectible today.

Regarding your mystery soldier, are you sure this is 1874-1881? He looks like the 1st VB Cameron Highlanders, which was the only Cameron VB. The collar badges and sporran badge appear to be a Crown atop a thistle. Grierson says this uniform was worn 1893-1908. That would be my assessment. Is the rifle a long Lee-Enfield?

Like all drum majors (and as far as I know pipe majors too) he is dressed as a First Class Staff Sergeant, a rank whose origin predates warrant officers. The First Class were dressed very close to officer standard, although there were of course some clear differences, as well as a few regimental idiosyncrasies. Dressing them in this way was the precursor to the way we dress British Regimental Sergeant Majors today, who are the sole survivors (apart from band sergeant majors and drum/pipe/bugle majors in full dress) of that manner of dress.

The rifle is a lever loading Martini Henry, which was bored for the short shamber Boxer-Henry cartridge of .45 caliber. This rifle was the standard long arm in the 1870s and until the introduction of the .303 caliber Long Lee Metford on a wide (replacement) scale in 1888. Although the Martini Henry continued to be used by Rifle Volunteers and Colonial troops for a few more years, it would not generally have equipped Regulars or Militia.

The photo is too distant for me to be positive, but the collar badge certainly looks to me to be the standard crown that was adopted by all regiments that did not have sealed a 'special device', or were not fusilers, or light infantry, who adopted a universal grenade, or bugle, respectively.

[FROGSMILE]

Although outside the sporran theme I hope that I can be forgiven for posting this image of one of the two pipe banners shown in the 2nd Battalion SR pipers photo.

According to the photographic plate on page 59 of 'Dress Regulations of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) published in 1931, it is the pipe banner of 'C' Company, 2nd Scottish Rifles. In the 2nd Battalion the company pipers continued to carry the banners of the company commanders at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, in honour of the Battalion's part in the battle.

Three of the four company commanders were killed in the battle, while the lone survivor, Captain E. B. Ferrers, was severely wounded. The Regimental Standing Orders of 1930 confirm that 'C' Company was commanded by Major Ellis and that it was his banner carried by the 'C' Company piper. The Dress Regulations however state that the pipe banner shown belonged to Major Mark Kerr.

[gordon92]

Although outside the sporran theme I hope that I can be forgiven for posting this image of one of the two pipe banners shown in the 2nd Battalion SR pipers photo.

According to the photographic plate on page 59 of 'Dress Regulations of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) published in 1931, it is the pipe banner of 'C' Company, 2nd Scottish Rifles. In the 2nd Battalion the company pipers continued to carry the banners of the company commanders at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, in honour of the Battalion's part in the battle.

Three of the four company commanders were killed in the battle, while the lone survivor, Captain E. B. Ferrers, was severely wounded. The Regimental Standing Orders of 1930 confirm that 'C' Company was commanded by Major Ellis and that it was his banner carried by the 'C' Company piper. The Dress Regulations however state that the pipe banner shown belonged to Major Mark Kerr.

Enjoyed reading this post, FROGSMILE. Is this personal pipe banner in your collection? The symbols above the Sphinx must be the coat-of-arms of either Major Ellis or Major Kerr. I wonder how the contradiction concerning these two officers came about.

[gordon92]

There is still one regiment that has not yet been addressed: The Scots Guards

The sporran has remained relatively static with three tassels but with slight variations in the cantle from time-to-time.

Pipers (do not know which Bn) circa 1910 wearing glengarries.

Pipes and Drums leading a parade in Paris 1930. The pipers wear feather bonnets.

Anecdote told to me regarding the feather bonnets: King George V dined with the officers in the mess of one the Scots Guards battalions in 1928. After the toasts were drunk to His Majesty, the pipers performed according to ritual. Scots Guards pipers wore glengarries in this era. KG V was Colonel-in-Chief of The Black Watch. He remarked how smart Black Watch pipers looked in their feather bonnets. Immediately thereafter, Scots Guards pipers adopted feather bonnets.

[FROGSMILE]

Enjoyed reading this post, FROGSMILE. Is this personal pipe banner in your collection? The symbols above the Sphinx must be the coat-of-arms of either Major Ellis or Major Kerr. I wonder how the contradiction concerning these two officers came about.

Investigation revealed that it was in fact the Arms of the Kerr family and no one has been able to explain the contradiction so long after the event. It seems likely that Major Kerr took over from Maj Ellis and so changed the pipe banner, but no one knows for sure.

The banner is in a Scottish museum, along with 6 others that were presented by local towns in the 1930s.

[FROGSMILE]

Some Scots Guards Pipers. Before and after the change to feather bonnets.

There is also a very old photo of Scots Guards pipers here:

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/scotsguardsband1875large.jpg

[Muerrisch]

Although outside the sporran theme I hope that I can be forgiven for posting this image of one of the two pipe banners shown in the 2nd Battalion SR pipers photo.

According to the photographic plate on page 59 of 'Dress Regulations of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) published in 1931, it is the pipe banner of 'C' Company, 2nd Scottish Rifles. In the 2nd Battalion the company pipers continued to carry the banners of the company commanders at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, in honour of the Battalion's part in the battle.

Three of the four company commanders were killed in the battle, while the lone survivor, Captain E. B. Ferrers, was severely wounded. The Regimental Standing Orders of 1930 confirm that 'C' Company was commanded by Major Ellis and that it was his banner carried by the 'C' Company piper. The Dress Regulations however state that the pipe banner shown belonged to Major Mark Kerr.

For the human angle behind the uniforms and sporrans and banners, see John Baynes's superb tribute to this magnificent unit, "Morale", to move the hardest heart to tears.

[gordon92]

For the human angle behind the uniforms and sporrans and banners, see John Baynes's superb tribute to this magnificent unit, "Morale", to move the hardest heart to tears.

Is this the reference you are describing?

Morale: A Study of Men and Courage by John Christopher Malcolm Baynes

Please confirm as I would like like to pick this up.

[gordon92]

Some Scots Guards Pipers. Before and after the change to feather bonnets.

There is also a very old photo of Scots Guards pipers here:

http://www.britishem...nd1875large.jpg

An interesting aspect to the 1875 photo you linked is that the piper has folded his plaid such that the vertical white lines on the Royal Stuart tartan are parallel to the edging on the front seam of the doublet. This is not seen in later photographs. These minutiae are intriguing to students of Scottish uniform such as I. The only other regiment that folded the full plaid in this manner was the Highland Light Infantry.

[gordon92]

All the regular Scottish regiments in the British Army have now been covered. The one exception is the Royal Scots Greys, but they did not start a Pipes and Drums until 1947.

In the Territorial category, we have posts on the London Scottish, Liverpool Scottish, and Tyneside Scottish.

How about the Lovat Scouts? Anybody have pictures of their pipers?

Does anyone wish to post photos of Canadian, South African, Australian, New Zealand or other various Colonial Scottish regiments?

Meanwhile, here is a piper of uncertain national origin in non-regulation dress without a sporran.

[FROGSMILE]

I thught this was a rather nice photo of Pipe Majors at a tattoo. Unfortunately it had to be cropped rather small before I could post it.

[gordon92]

I thught this was a rather nice photo of Pipe Majors at a tattoo. Unfortunately it had to be cropped rather small before I could post it.

Excellent photo. It was taken at the Highland Brigade Gathering at Agra 1914 in the dying days of peace. The Pipe Majors sitting in the front row (L-R) are Seaforth, Black Watch, Cameron, Argyll, and Gordon. The Drum Majors in the back row standing are Black Watch, Argyll, Cameron, and Seaforth. The PM of the 1st Seaforth is "Duke" Matheison who survived the War albeit with a severe wound. The PM of the 2nd Camerons is Dugal Matheson who also survived the War and emigrated to Australia afterward.

I have an account of how the 2nd Camerons by December had arrived at Devonport from India to be placed under canvas for several weeks. The men were shivering while clothed only in khaki drill until service dress could be issued. That was mild compared to what was to come.

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent photo. It was taken at the Highland Brigade Gathering at Agra 1914 in the dying days of peace. The Pipe Majors sitting in the front row (L-R) are Seaforth, Black Watch, Cameron, Argyll, and Gordon. The Drum Majors in the back row standing are Black Watch, Argyll, Cameron, and Seaforth. The PM of the 1st Seaforth is "Duke" Matheison who survived the War albeit with a severe wound. The PM of the 2nd Camerons is Dugal Matheson who also survived the War and emigrated to Australia afterward.

I have an account of how the 2nd Camerons by December had arrived at Devonport from India to be placed under canvas for several weeks. The men were shivering while clothed only in khaki drill until service dress could be issued. That was mild compared to what was to come.

What a watershed 'Gathering' that must have been. The calm before the storm.

I especially like this image (enclosed) of Seaforth drummers in Edinburgh Castle, seemingly in the late 1890s. It also shows clearly how the side drums were carried on the march and there are no sporrans.