FROGSMILE Posted 19 July , 2012 Share Posted 19 July , 2012 The enclosed photos show the old 'Victoria' barracks in Cork that was re-named 'Collins' Barracks after partition and the windows and brickwork seem to match with the 2HLI photo.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 20 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2012 The enclosed photos show the old 'Victoria' barracks that was named 'Collins' Barracks after partition and the windows and brickwork seem to match with the 2HLI photo.. Indeed, your contemporary photo does appear to be a match with the photo in #169. Great detective work by FROGSMILE and Tom McC! So, the #169 photo should be restated as Cork 1910-1912. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 21 July , 2012 Share Posted 21 July , 2012 Chris, Ref post 136: The photo has Captain Harry Studley in it - he's the largest chap with the curved-handled stick. Captain Studley was the Quartermaster with the 7th Black Watch and went to the 2/7th Black Watch. He did not go to France due to ill health and passed away in February 1916. I notice Colonel Allen is absent and the men look a bit older, so I assume it’s the 2/7th Black Watch. I am not sure where the photo was taken. I hope this is of use. Aye, Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 July , 2012 Share Posted 21 July , 2012 Fantastic - thanks for that Tom. I had no provenance on the picture apart from I bought it in Canada. Any insight on the Sporran pattern worn by the piper there? Does not appear to be the normal Black Watch pattern. Best, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 21 July , 2012 Share Posted 21 July , 2012 Chris, The sporran referred to looks like a type (including cantle) used by the: 2nd Perthshire Rifle Volunteers, which became the: 5th (Perthshire Highland) Volunteer Battalion Royal Highlanders, which were supposed to become the: 8th Royal Highlanders (Cyclists), but instead became the: Highland Cyclist Battalion. Prior to the War there were a couple of years of ‘sporran anarchy’, where some of the TF units were in a state of flux between the old Volunteers’ sporrans and ones of a Regimental pattern. You sometimes see the odd, old sporran turning up in photos of the ‘older’ soldiers, and I think that your photo is one. I hope this is of use. Aye, Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 July , 2012 Share Posted 22 July , 2012 Thanks again, Tom. "Sporran Anarchy" sounds like a good name for a Celtic-Punk crossover band.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 23 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2012 Chris, The sporran referred to looks like a type (including cantle) used by the: 2nd Perthshire Rifle Volunteers, which became the: 5th (Perthshire Highland) Volunteer Battalion Royal Highlanders, which were supposed to become the: 8th Royal Highlanders (Cyclists), but instead became the: Highland Cyclist Battalion. Prior to the War there were a couple of years of ‘sporran anarchy’, where some of the TF units were in a state of flux between the old Volunteers’ sporrans and ones of a Regimental pattern. You sometimes see the odd, old sporran turning up in photos of the ‘older’ soldiers, and I think that your photo is one. I hope this is of use. Aye, Tom McC The referenced sporran with two black tassels does look similar to that worn by the 5th (Perthshire) VB Royal Highlanders. The star badge on the cantle in the #136 photo is perplexing. The 5th VB would have had on the sporran a thistle within a garter surmounted by a crown. One could speculate that upon conversion to the TF the original badge was replaced, or the star badge could have been a distinction for the Pipe Major pre-1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 25 July , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2012 The photo below is of the pipers and drummers of 1st Bn Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. The picture's venue has been referenced contradictorily in two sources as either 1908 at Tidworth or 1910 at Aldershot. Would the building in the background be recognizable to anyone in order to surmise Tidworth or Aldershot as the location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Aplogies for delving into this old thread. Just picked up another picture which made me think of this. Appears to be taken 1914/15 (imperial service badges in evidence) I think this is the Pipes and Drums of the Highland Field Ambulance RAMC Not sure what pattern sporrans or what tartan they are wearing. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 "In fact, the HLI never lost its Highland status" That's not true I am afraid. In 1948 with Major General Urquhart as its Colonel, the Regiment regained the Highland status and the kilt was finally restored to the Regiment. There is a very good book on Urquhart by Lt. Colonel Sir John Baynes Bt., late Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) detailing this history of the Regiment. David Niven would have taken issue with this as he was an officer of the Regiment in 1933. Cheers, S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Aplogies for delving into this old thread. Just picked up another picture which made me think of this. Appears to be taken 1914/15 (imperial service badges in evidence) I think this is the Pipes and Drums of the Highland Field Ambulance RMAC Not sure what pattern sporrans or what tartan they are wearing. Chris How dare you apologise for such a cracker! Most wear pre-economy jackets, a few wear the economy. Most are badged/qualified RAMC. Whereas there is a pipe-major, the senior drummer appears to be a l-cpl, with no other rank/ appointment visible except for the drum badges squeezed on above the Geneva Cross. The pipe on our right has magnificently bulled brogues, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Aplogies for delving into this old thread. Just picked up another picture which made me think of this. Appears to be taken 1914/15 (imperial service badges in evidence) I think this is the Pipes and Drums of the Highland Field Ambulance RMAC Not sure what pattern sporrans or what tartan they are wearing. Chris Chris, Could you furnish a close-up of one of the sporrans? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2012 "In fact, the HLI never lost its Highland status" That's not true I am afraid. In 1948 with Major General Urquhart as its Colonel, the Regiment regained the Highland status and the kilt was finally restored to the Regiment. There is a very good book on Urquhart by Lt. Colonel Sir John Baynes Bt., late Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) detailing this history of the Regiment. David Niven would have taken issue with this as he was an officer of the Regiment in 1933. Cheers, S In 1809, a time of almost incessant war in Europe, the 72nd, 73rd, 74th, 75th, and 91st Regiments were removed from Highland status (some only temporarily) becoming line regiments with no particular national connections; this was done to aid recruiting because of the scarcity of Highlanders. The 71st were not among them, and they instead in 1808 converted to a light infantry role discarding the kilt in favor of trousers. A Lt. Col. Cadogan, commanding the 71st at the time "was able to obtain the concession that the 71st might retain such of the Highland characteristics as did not conflict with their new role." The HLI remained in trews after 1881 as a negotiating concession with the 74th Highlanders, the 71st's amalgamation partner in the 1881 Childers reforms. The HLI reverted to kilts after its 2nd Bn (the old 74th) was disbanded in 1948. The HLI was a special case, and absence of the kilt was not synonymous with loss of Highland status. David Niven served in the HLI for only a short period and was highly unpopular with other officers because of his disparaging remarks about the Regiment while at Sandhurst listing his 3rd choice of regiments as "Anyone but the HLI." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Aplogies for delving into this old thread. Just picked up another picture which made me think of this. Appears to be taken 1914/15 (imperial service badges in evidence) I think this is the Pipes and Drums of the Highland Field Ambulance RMAC Not sure what pattern sporrans or what tartan they are wearing. Chris The groups of three horizontal white lines strongly suggest the tartan as Royal Stuart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 In 1809, a time of almost incessant war in Europe, the 72nd, 73rd, 74th, 75th, and 91st Regiments were removed from Highland status (some only temporarily) becoming line regiments with no particular national connections; this was done to aid recruiting because of the scarcity of Highlanders. The 71st were not among them, and they instead in 1808 converted to a light infantry role discarding the kilt in favor of trousers. A Lt. Col. Cadogan, commanding the 71st at the time "was able to obtain the concession that the 71st might retain such of the Highland characteristics as did not conflict with their new role." The HLI remained in trews after 1881 as a negotiating concession with the 74th Highlanders, the 71st's amalgamation partner in the 1881 Childers reforms. The HLI reverted to kilts after its 2nd Bn (the old 74th) was disbanded in 1948. The HLI was a special case, and absence of the kilt was not synonymous with loss of Highland status. David Niven served in the HLI for only a short period and was highly unpopular with other officers because of his disparaging remarks about the Regiment while at Sandhurst listing his 3rd choice of regiments as "Anyone but the HLI." There was a tale from USA WW II officer preferences. Belief was you got your third choice ONLY. Our hero said "subs destroyers battleships". "you will be delighted to learn that you are posted to subs" And had a distinguished career I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2012 There was a tale from USA WW II officer preferences. Belief was you got your third choice ONLY. Our hero said "subs destroyers battleships". "you will be delighted to learn that you are posted to subs" And had a distinguished career I believe. Most worthy of a chuckle, GRUMPY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 The photo below is of the pipers and drummers of 1st Bn Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. The picture's venue has been referenced contradictorily in two sources as either 1908 at Tidworth or 1910 at Aldershot. Would the building in the background be recognizable to anyone in order to surmise Tidworth or Aldershot as the location? I am very familiar with the old Tidworth Garrison (before the contemporary rebuild) and I believe your photo relates to Aldershot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Hi Gordon, Niven, funnily enough, after poking fun at his old Regiment, actually felt proud of the HLI, though Smollet and Urquhart never really forgave him for his highly sensationalised book. Like most immigrants coming to the US, he felt he could a make a buck off the old country. Like Masters, the Gurkha family did not like it at all. But the poor HLI! A halfway house between Lowland and Highland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 I am very familiar with the old Tidworth Garrison (before the contemporary rebuild) and I believe your photo relates to Aldershot. This photograph is in the Cabarfeidh collection of the Regimental Music of the Queen's Own Highlanders and its indeed at Aldershot. Tidworth was not like it was today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 November , 2012 Share Posted 12 November , 2012 Tidworth was not like it was today. No indeed, I was based there for some time over 35-years ago and remember it well. There were no modern buildings then whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 November , 2012 Share Posted 13 November , 2012 Chris, Could you furnish a close-up of one of the sporrans? Mike As requested: Sporran Sporran and cross belt (appears to be a similar badge on the waistbelt buckle as on the sporran cantle) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2012 This photograph is in the Cabarfeidh collection of the Regimental Music of the Queen's Own Highlanders and its indeed at Aldershot. Tidworth was not like it was today. Thanks Frogsmile and seaforth78 for IDing the venue of the photograph and, hence, its date. The Pipe Major sitting to the left of the Pipes President is William Kinnear who survived the Great War and lived to the ripe old age of 93. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2012 As requested: Sporran Sporran and cross belt (appears to be a similar badge on the waistbelt buckle as on the sporran cantle) Chris Thank you for the additional images. The badges on the sporran and waist belt plate appear to be those of the RAMC as would be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 March , 2013 Share Posted 15 March , 2013 Can anyone identify the unit based on the sporran here? (not much else to go on!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 16 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2013 Can anyone identify the unit based on the sporran here? (not much else to go on!) Chris, If photo taken during the Great War, he is likely the 48th Highlanders of Canada. If after the war, could also be the Dundas, Stormont and Glengarry Highlanders. Both wore the illustrated sporran with diced headgear. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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