Guide to Sporrans (continued)

[gordon92]

Hello Mike

My grandfather (Edward Rowles 2537) was wounded in June 1915, at I believe Givenchy, blown out of trench by shell and had shrapnel wounds to head, arms etc (some pieces he carried throughout his life)and a machine gun wound to his neck but he recovered and was transferred to Lovat Scouts by August 1915, when he married. He appears to have served with Lovat Scouts until early in 1918 but was then transferred to 5/Battalion Cameron Highlanders and finished the war with them as part of the occupying force in the Ruhr. He was discharged from army on 23/02/1919 at Perth.

For some reason my grandfather seemed to have retained his Cameron dress uniform. I also have his spats and glengarry (can photograph if of interest)and fragments of his kilt (I believe moths got most of it many years ago). My mother made my Teddy Bear a kilt from it when I was a small boy, a piece of this is now with one of my granddaughters! I used to have his service medals but these were stolen c. 1979 but I didn't notice until sometime after the event.

I have several photos of my grandfather in uniform but none of him wearing full dress uniform with sporran. However, I do have one of my grandmother (Annie Alice Grist nee Rowles) wearing it, which judging from the quality of the photo my grandfather may have carried in his pocket. I attach this. Also I have a photo of my Great-uncle Albert Grist dressed in a child sized Scottish uniform taken during WWI, which I attach (can't make out insignia but not Cameron H). Besides his uncle (my grandfather) two of his brothers also served in 4/Camerons (Joseph Grist and George Grist). I have another photo of Albert in same outfit standing next to his brother Dave, in WWI uniform of RA (can add if of interest)

Hope this of interest

John

John,

Your bio information and additional photos on your grandfather and relatives were read with great interest. One slight correction that will help you communicaae better on this site: The uniform your grandmother is shown wearing is referred to as "Service Dress." "Full Dress" was the ceremonial uniform (still worn today only by Guards and Bands) that was worn on Sundays for church parade and for special occasions; for Highland regiments Full Dress would include a scarlet doublet and feather bonnet.

Indeed please do post additional photos of Edward's spats & glengarry plus the picture of Albert and Dave.

Mike

[Muerrisch]

"Full Dress" was the ceremonial uniform (still worn today only by Guards and Bands)

to which please add Household Cavalry and King's Troop RHA.

[gordon92]

"Full Dress" was the ceremonial uniform (still worn today only by Guards and Bands)

to which please add Household Cavalry and King's Troop RHA.

Acknowledged. Thank you.

[jjd]

Further to my earlier posts, I attach

1) Photo of Greatuncles Dave Grist (RA, I think) and Albert Grist (with studio sporran);

and then some of my Grandfather's kit (Edward Rowles 4/Camerons 2537)

2) spats - external;

3) spats - internal, piece from kilt, glengarry (see also avatar).

Very few refns. to spats on BWF; might be of interest to note spats have khaki buttons and vary in underfoot strap both are leather but one has a buckle.

John

[gordon92]

Very interesting items, John.

The glengarry and spats are definitely from the Cameron Highlanders. Notice that the understraps on the spats are black with khaki buttons (white buttons on white straps); this was the only regiment that had this combination, and the black straps were a regimental modification.

The kilt fragment is perplexing. It is the Hunting Stuart tartan as worn by the 9th Royal Scots and not the 79th tartan used by the Cameron Highlanders. Any chance Edward also served with the 9RS at some point?

[jjd]

Fairly certain he was never with 9SG. His only other unit , as far as I know, was Lovat's Scouts but his service record is lost and his MCI doesn't mention LS even though he appears to have served with them for 3 years. Possibly may have been misled by my mother on kilt (I would have only been about 5 or 6 when she made the mini-kilt supposedly from my grandfather's).

I know they did keep his kilt as well as the other artefacts. Have changed photo of grandmother to black & white which brings out tartan a little; this would have been the kilt they kept. Also photo of Edward with I think 4/Camerons c. early 1915(he is standing at far right middle row - LCpl with moustache) note how very young the bugler in this group is (sitting in middle). My photos of Edward in kilt show a belt with "S" fastener, what do you make of the belt my grandmother is wearing?

John

[jjd]

Grandfather can be seen in previous post by clicking on photo. Attached one of grandfather & grandmother c. 1914 - 1915. He has "S" belt again

John

[gordon92]

Fairly certain he was never with 9SG. His only other unit , as far as I know, was Lovat's Scouts but his service record is lost and his MCI doesn't mention LS even though he appears to have served with them for 3 years. Possibly may have been misled by my mother on kilt (I would have only been about 5 or 6 when she made the mini-kilt supposedly from my grandfather's).

I know they did keep his kilt as well as the other artefacts. Have changed photo of grandmother to black & white which brings out tartan a little; this would have been the kilt they kept. Also photo of Edward with I think 4/Camerons c. early 1915(he is standing at far right middle row - LCpl with moustache) note how very young the bugler in this group is (sitting in middle). My photos of Edward in kilt show a belt with "S" fastener, what do you make of the belt my grandmother is wearing?

John

John,

The belt with the S-fastener is part of what is known as the 1914 leather equipment that was an improvisation because of a shortage of the preferred pattern 1908 webbing equipment. This belt would have been worn in field service and also for walking out. The belt your grandmother is wearing is a white buff belt used primarily for parade wear.

Mike

[Muerrisch]

The bugler is badged as a drummer ........... drummers were trained in drum, bugle and flute duty.

[Guest]

My apologies if this has been addressed in this forum, but I haven’t seen it posted in any of the conversations. In my own research, I’ve exhausted most (I can’t honestly say all) of the usual resources for the following with no real conclusive results:

I’m interested to know what metal was used on the cantle, badge, and bell fittings on an “other ranks” Gordon Highlanders horsehair sporran (black leather below a plain arced cantle). Information on the inter webs is all over the map with some showing all brass, some with any combination of white metal and brass. Period photos, being monochromatic aren’t much assistance. 
 

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Perry Ruch said:

My apologies if this has been addressed in this forum, but I haven’t seen it posted in any of the conversations. In my own research, I’ve exhausted most (I can’t honestly say all) of the usual resources for the following with no real conclusive results:

I’m interested to know what metal was used on the cantle, badge, and bell fittings on an “other ranks” Gordon Highlanders horsehair sporran (black leather below a plain arced cantle). Information on the inter webs is all over the map with some showing all brass, some with any combination of white metal and brass. Period photos, being monochromatic aren’t much assistance. 
 

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

There is no doubt that the cantle of the Gordon Highlanders other ranks sporran was made from yellow (so-called ‘candlestick’ type) brass plate.  There’s a good description here: https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/britishinfantry/gordonssporranor.htm

 

Edited 14 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Ron Abbott]

Some photos that recently surfaced in social media purportedly also on a forum pertaining to the Gordon Highlanders. 

 

Revealing the unusual sporrans worn by pipers cWW1.  The Drums & Pipes is probably that of the Depot marching down Union Street in Aberdeen with P/M GS McLennan at the helm. 

 

P/M George Stewart McLennan was P/M of both the 2nd Battalion (1905 to 1913 and again 1918 to 1919) and the Depot (1913 to 1918 and again 1919 to 1922) 

 

The last is of P/M Charles Davidson Dunbar who was P/M of the 2nd (1895 to 1901) and 3rd Battalions (1901 to 1911).

 

 

[gordon92]

22 hours ago, Perry Ruch said:

My apologies if this has been addressed in this forum, but I haven’t seen it posted in any of the conversations. In my own research, I’ve exhausted most (I can’t honestly say all) of the usual resources for the following with no real conclusive results:

I’m interested to know what metal was used on the cantle, badge, and bell fittings on an “other ranks” Gordon Highlanders horsehair sporran (black leather below a plain arced cantle). Information on the inter webs is all over the map with some showing all brass, some with any combination of white metal and brass. Period photos, being monochromatic aren’t much assistance. 
 

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

 

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There is no doubt that the cantle of the Gordon Highlanders other ranks sporran was made from yellow (so-called ‘candlestick’ type) brass plate.  There’s a good description here: https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/britishinfantry/gordonssporranor.htm

 

 

As noted by Frogsmile, the metal edging for the Gordon Highlanders Other Ranks sporran was indeed made from yellow brass for the Regular and Special Reserve battalions of the Regiment.  White metal was used for the sporrans of the Territorial Force battalions and their predecessors, the Volunteer Battalions.

.

[gordon92]

50 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

Some photos that recently surfaced in social media purportedly also on a forum pertaining to the Gordon Highlanders. 

 

Revealing the unusual sporrans worn by pipers cWW1.  The Drums & Pipes is probably that of the Depot marching down Union Street in Aberdeen with P/M GS McLennan at the helm. 

 

P/M George Stewart McLennan was P/M of both the 2nd Battalion (1905 to 1913 and again 1918 to 1919) and the Depot (1913 to 1918 and again 1919 to 1922) 

 

The last is of P/M Charles Davidson Dunbar who was P/M of the 2nd (1895 to 1901) and 3rd Battalions (1901 to 1911).

 

 

 

Excellent photos.  Those sporrans are baffling. Thanks for posting.  I do believe that McLennan was PM of the 1st Battalion; see http://gordonhighlanders.com.surface3.vm.bytemark.co.uk/domains/gordonhighlanders.com/local/media/images/medium/Pipe_Major_G_S_McLennan.pdf

[Ron Abbott]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

 

Excellent photos.  Those sporrans are baffling. Thanks for posting.  I do believe that McLennan was PM of the 1st Battalion; see http://gordonhighlanders.com.surface3.vm.bytemark.co.uk/domains/gordonhighlanders.com/local/media/images/medium/Pipe_Major_G_S_McLennan.pdf

 

 

He was indeed.  My mistake.  Replace the dates/years that I wrote as 2nd Battalion.....with 1st Battalion!

[FROGSMILE]

 

11 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

Some photos that recently surfaced in social media purportedly also on a forum pertaining to the Gordon Highlanders. 

 

Revealing the unusual sporrans worn by pipers cWW1.  The Drums & Pipes is probably that of the Depot marching down Union Street in Aberdeen with P/M GS McLennan at the helm. 

 

P/M George Stewart McLennan was P/M of both the 2nd Battalion (1905 to 1913 and again 1918 to 1919) and the Depot (1913 to 1918 and again 1919 to 1922) 

 

The last is of P/M Charles Davidson Dunbar who was P/M of the 2nd (1895 to 1901) and 3rd Battalions (1901 to 1911).

 

 

I think this is one of the sporrans concerned.

 

They are reversed In colouration to those worn by pipers of the Scots Guards.

 

[gordon92]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I think this is one of the sporrans concerned.

 

They are reversed In colouration to those worn by pipers of the Scots Guards.

 

 

There is a discussion of of this pattern sporran on X Marks the Scot from which the photos below have been extracted.  It would appear that the 3rd Militia Battalion's pipers wore a similar pattern sporran.  It would be my surmise that, after becoming the 3rd Special Reserve battalion, the original sporran badge from the Royal Aberdeen Militia of St. Andrew carrying the Cross was replaced with the stag's head and the protuberances on the top of the cantle added to be similar to the regular battalions.

 

[Ron Abbott]

5 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

There is a discussion of of this pattern sporran on X Marks the Scot from which the photos below have been extracted.  It would appear that the 3rd Militia Battalion's pipers wore a similar pattern sporran.  It would be my surmise that, after becoming the 3rd Special Reserve battalion, the original sporran badge from the Royal Aberdeen Militia of St. Andrew carrying the Cross was replaced with the stag's head and the protuberances on the top of the cantle added to be similar to the regular battalions.

 

 

In that last photo, it would appear that the pipers are wearing the old Aberdeenshire Rifles badge on their glengarries as well.  

Certainly appears to be Pipe-Major Charles Davidson Dunbar in that last photo, which would date it to between c1901 and 1911.

 

In the previous photo (with handwritten date of 1899), I'm not sure who the Pipe-Major is but as of 1899 it could have been a man called John Grant (not to be confused with the more famous piper of the same name), although it's a tad confusing because there was also a Pipe-Major Charles Leith Hay Grant of the 3rd VB Gordon Highlanders around that same era.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I think that the Royal Aberdeen Militia provenance is very likely.

[gordon92]

13 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

In that last photo, it would appear that the pipers are wearing the old Aberdeenshire Rifles badge on their glengarries as well.  

Certainly appears to be Pipe-Major Charles Davidson Dunbar in that last photo, which would date it to between c1901 and 1911.

Yes, it does seem to be the same man as in the photo you posted earlier.

[Ron Abbott]

By coincidence, this photo was just posted on a facebook page apparently taken at the Montrose Air Station circa 1919 :-

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting that the Pipie has a diced glengarry?

[Ron Abbott]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Interesting that the Pipie has a diced glengarry?

 

I can see why you think that, but if you enlarge the photo; I don't think he actually is when you compare with the D/M.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

 

I can see why you think that, but if you enlarge the photo; I don't think he actually is when you compare with the D/M.

I was looking at the wrong chap Ron.