Muerrisch Posted 13 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Happy to go with SMLE now, thanks. Puts date at later end of spectrum, given slowness of delivery to sharp end? Please may we have the NEW scan of the original online for reference purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 13 September , 2011 Share Posted 13 September , 2011 RDF interesting. "new" helmet. "Old" collar "New" web belt Not far away rom 1908, I think. Grumpy More likely to be 1917-18. The khaki drill frock is the wartime Simplified variant with stand collar; the giveaway is the plain as opposed to chevroned cuffs. An easy thing to miss unless you happen to know. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Grumpy More likely to be 1917-18. The khaki drill frock is the wartime Simplified variant with stand collar; the giveaway is the plain as opposed to chevroned cuffs. An easy thing to miss unless you happen to know. Regards, W. Wish I could be as sure! Are you saying, please; "combination mandarin collar and plain cuff = wartime"? A single dated pre-war example would demolish that of course. My feeling is that, with many sub-contractors making clothing, lots of old gear in stores, and private purchase, it is very difficult to generalise. For example, at least six different pocket flap designs on the KD frock between 1900 and 1919: UNIFORM ..... no! In the search for eternal truth, I would be very glad to have your views, preferably illustrated, on diagnosis of date from KD photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 13 September , 2011 Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Wish I could be as sure! Are you saying, please; "combination mandarin collar and plain cuff = wartime"? Yes I am. A single dated pre-war example would demolish that of course. It would indeed. I haven't heard of one yet. My feeling is that, with many sub-contractors making clothing, lots of old gear in stores, and private purchase, it is very difficult to generalise. For example, at least six different pocket flap designs on the KD frock between 1900 and 1919: UNIFORM ..... no! Remarkable uniformity in respect of cuffs though. Only the Frock Simplified has plain ones. In the search for eternal truth, I would be very glad to have your views, preferably illustrated, on diagnosis of date from KD photos. Grumpy, I can't prove this beyond the slightest shred of doubt, because I don't have any official pattern documentation. On that basis, one could dispute the dating of absolutely any item of military clothing, but there comes a point where probability, frequency of observation and overall consensus start to weigh pretty heavily. This thread should go a long way towards supporting the point I'm trying to make. The hard information begins on the second page. If you still don't agree, I'll try and find some more backup, but I cannot provide an equivalent to the Ten Commandmants. ADD: In any study of early KD, the Frock Simplified is a key part of the equation and one that you really need to know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Grumpy, I can't prove this beyond the slightest shred of doubt, because I don't have any official pattern documentation. On that basis, one could dispute the dating of absolutely any item of military clothing, but there comes a point where probability, frequency of observation and overall consensus start to weigh pretty heavily. This thread should go a long way towards supporting the point I'm trying to make. The hard information begins on the second page. If you still don't agree, I'll try and find some more backup, but I cannot provide an equivalent to the Ten Commandmants. ADD: In any study of early KD, the Frock Simplified is a key part of the equation and one that you really need to know about. Many thanks, very helpful, the thread referred to I printed off some time ago and I agree that it is a major reference. I formed the impression that it was primarily about British, as opposed to Indian Government, issue KD, and the crossover, apart from badges, seems extremely complicated. Inevitably my thread re. British India 1914 wandered backwards, as all historical pursuits go, so we are not necessarily comparing like with like. The search for dozens of dated or dateable KD shots with plain cuff before 1914 is on, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Inevitably [the Devil making work for idle hands] I have had a look for IP frocks KD for absent chevron or lancer cuff. It might be my eyes, it might be the poor quality of the shots, but I think I have three photos 2nd RWF mandarin collar no chevron, and one ANOther regiment, all 1900 to 1910. Must be my eyes. Not sure how to post and preserve the detail necessary, as proving a negative is not generally a good idea. Any others, top quality, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2011 Share Posted 13 September , 2011 Wish I could be as sure! Are you saying, please; "combination mandarin collar and plain cuff = wartime"? A single dated pre-war example would demolish that of course. My feeling is that, with many sub-contractors making clothing, lots of old gear in stores, and private purchase, it is very difficult to generalise. For example, at least six different pocket flap designs on the KD frock between 1900 and 1919: UNIFORM ..... no! In the search for eternal truth, I would be very glad to have your views, preferably illustrated, on diagnosis of date from KD photos. I think you are right that it will be all but impossible to be definitive about all patterns because so many extra kits were also made in the regimental bazaar's dhirzi shops. That situation continued after partition when the same scenario existed in the Middle East in WW2 and in the Far East post war in the garrisons that we still had until the late 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 September , 2011 Share Posted 14 September , 2011 Happy to go with SMLE now, thanks. Puts date at later end of spectrum, given slowness of delivery to sharp end? Please may we have the NEW scan of the original online for reference purposes? As requested. Sorry about the quality it is a rather poorly focussed and exposed image to start with Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 September , 2011 Share Posted 14 September , 2011 Here is another one: again cannot be certain it is India but seems likely given Gordons garrison duties etc. Cuff bands indicating regimental police or...? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 September , 2011 Share Posted 14 September , 2011 Opposite ends of the dress spectrum. Both definitely India (Bangalore: WV Eden Photographer) What looks like a funeral cortege I also have several of cavlary and men on parade in "whites" but they are rather too distant for any detail. Worth posting or? I suspect these are pre 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 September , 2011 Share Posted 14 September , 2011 and a distinctly "undress" hunting party? (see double rifles and shotguns heaped up!) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2011 Some marvellous additions here: funeral cortege most unusual: cameras at funerals ...... how many family funeral snaps do you ever see? Some of the hunting? party appear to be in long johns! My grandpa has appeared like that, unshaven, at times, in the dim and distant past! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September , 2011 Share Posted 14 September , 2011 Here is another one: again cannot be certain it is India but seems likely given Gordons garrison duties etc. Cuff bands indicating regimental police or...? Chris Yes, a good example of what were then called "Regimental Military Police" (as opposed to Corps of Military Police - comprising MFP and MMP - although the former term did not become official until after WW1). The Provost Corporal (2i/c) is at centre. At that time the lettered brassards were generally worn on the right cuff, but later on, when shirt sleeve order became a permitted form of dress in barracks (it was previously only permitted in the field, or when undergoing physical labour), they were moved to the upper arm where they remain today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2011 I have been struggling unsuccessfully to post some 2nd RWF India images 1903 to 1908, which illustrate IP KD going through a steady change from mandarin collar with pockets shaped like a { which I shall call Type 1, and old Lee rifles, to turn-down collars with nearly square pocket flaps [ which I shall call type 2. Dating is from knowing career of VW Ward as he makes steady progression, and H Yates. Also been looking for "chevron" or "lancer" cuffs ....... lots present, but they are indeed hard to see in many cases and I cannot claim any garment in this series of ills. definitely has no such cuff. My other spotted pocket flaps are: type 3. curved ( type 4. V shape < type 5. officer-type 3 points, curved between points, button at centre point. type 6. two buttons, at corners types 1, 3 and 4 may be tailors artefacts of the same item, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 so this would be TYPE 1 flaps? (but with turn down collar) This would be Type 1 flaps (with mandarin collar) and this would be TYPE 2 flaps? (with turn down collar) I am not finding "lancer" cuffs on many of my pictures - I do have some post war KD pictures (with ribbons) which still exhibit some variety in collars and pockets Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Here is another from my Bangalore set. Cavalry, pre war but I cannot identify the unit, it is a little distant for much uniform detail . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2011 4thG Many thanks, and I am grateful someone is interested in the collar/pocket/cuff area! The type 1 cuff and turned down collar [lets call it TDC as opposed to Mandarin Collar MC!] is teamed with a Wolseley helmet. References vary as to date of introduction of this helmet but they seem to agree on a "NOT BEFORE" date of 1904. Looking at the 4th Gordons posting times, night owl or not in UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Grumpy WRT to the photo at post 171 that gave rise to the discussion about plain cuffs, I can't see anything to connect it to India, unless the helmet flash is definitely attributable to a Dubs Bn serving there. The Wolseley helmet and 08 belt are typical of both prewar and wartime wear. The Frock Simplified was worn in considerable numbers during WW1. The combination of uniform and equipment in this photograph is very typical of that period. Why search for an arcane explanation when a simple one is at hand? Something about looking like a duck and walking like a duck... Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Grumpy WRT to the photo at post 171 that gave rise to the discussion about plain cuffs, I can't see anything to connect it to India, unless the helmet flash is definitely attributable to a Dubs Bn serving there. The Wolseley helmet and 08 belt are typical of both prewar and wartime wear. The Frock Simplified was worn in considerable numbers during WW1. The combination of uniform and equipment in this photograph is very typical of that period. Why search for an arcane explanation when a simple one is at hand? Something about looking like a duck and walking like a duck... Regards, W. You may well be correct, although "arcane" is a bit strong for what I believed to be a straightforward alternative. However, what has emerged is how difficult it is to identify chevron cuff / lancer cuffs in all but the most well lighted and focussed studio portraits. I have become very good at finding them, and very diffident about not finding them! many thanks for your contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2011 2nd RWF Chakrata India c. 1903/4, showing the difficulty of identifying cuff from an excellent original. China medal [2nd bn] and SA [1st bn] visible. Dog spaced out as usual in a happy unit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 2nd RWF Chakrata India c. 1903/4, showing the difficulty of identifying cuff from an excellent original. China [2nd bn] and SA [1st bn] visible. Dog spaced out as usual in a happy unit! They were indeed a happy band of brothers, and a goodly number of marksmen among them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 September , 2011 Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Looking at the 4th Gordons posting times, night owl or not in UK? Ironically, both of the above actually! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 September , 2011 Ironically, both of the above actually! Chris In either case or both, thanks for your continuing support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 September , 2011 Share Posted 17 September , 2011 Just got this - thought you might be interested as it has some detail and I think is relevant. It is part of F Coy 1/4th border Regiment taken in Maymyo (Burma/Myanmar) in 1915 so I think it might fall under the Indian Army at that point? Points of interest: Long Lees - although I cannot determine if the are CLLE or not with P1888 bayonets. Shirt Sleeves/Shorts as opposed to KD. Only KD appears to be the Senior Officer. Lieut (seated) appears to have pips stitched to his upper shirt sleeve which I have not seen before. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 17 September , 2011 Share Posted 17 September , 2011 An interesting point being that Taff G maintains that putties were never issued in any other colour than the standard Khaki Green, but those of the borders look the same colour as their uniforms, not as per the middle photo of Chris's post. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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