British uniforms India 1914

[Muerrisch]

here is a little test, courtesy Graham Stewart, all NF, c. 1913.

NB the white helmet apparently worn with the BP.

Helmets look remarkably like Colonial too.

[Muerrisch]

and a last one today, again Graham: Corps of Drums, India, post c. 1907, note the lace, and the unusual wearing of drum badge with the 'crown and inch' [or is it?] lace and wings.

With regard to KD, the early pattern mandarin collar and pointed pocket seems to be well on its way out in 1906: I have just had a look at 2nd RWF en masse 1906 and the early are in a minority.

[FROGSMILE]

and a last one today, again Graham: Corps of Drums, India, post c. 1907, note the lace, and the unusual wearing of drum badge with the 'crown and inch' [or is it?] lace and wings. With regard to KD, the early pattern mandarin collar and pointed pocket seems to be well on its way out in 1906: I have just had a look at 2nd RWF en masse 1906 and the early are in a minority.

A great picture and no, it is not crown and inch, which was and is a flat, tape type of lace. The lace in the illustration was corded and comprised white woven tubular cord with a red 'worm' (that is spiral) running through it. I have seen this lace many years ago in a battalion tailors shop on a reel. When stitched flat, as on the cuffs, it appears slightly wider.

[FROGSMILE]

Cpl PTI 2ndRWF.

My intent is not to quibble for the sake of it, but this is a strictly observed point. He is an Assistant PTI (APTI). Only members of the Gymnastic Staff, later Army Physical Training Corps could/can be PTIs.

[Muerrisch]

My intent is not to quibble for the sake of it, but this is a strictly observed point. He is an Assistant PTI (APTI). Only members of the Gymnastic Staff, later Army Physical Training Corps could/can be PTIs.

Absolutely, and thank you. I should know better: just as signalling instructors are/ were Assistant Instructors. In general, it seems that ]with the exception you point out] only officers can be Instructors.

And thanks for the not crown and inch notes. Guards fleur-de-lys lace comes in two widths!

[FROGSMILE]

As you have said group photos in issue Blue Patrols are rare, here is A Coy, I RWF in Nasirabad 1927. Notice that by this stage collar badges are worn and that it is well before the 1936 Coronation issue of Blue Patrols.

[Muerrisch]

Such a photo would be a revelation!

......... ask and it shall be given!

Any chance of a quality scan, please, the "HQ group" showing officers and some NCOs would do.

I can only surmise that in this case the BPs were funded by a regimental fund?

[FROGSMILE]

Such a photo would be a revelation!

......... ask and it shall be given!

Any chance of a quality scan, please, the "HQ group" showing officers and some NCOs would do.

I can only surmise that in this case the BPs were funded by a regimental fund?

I am sorry, I have no idea how they were funded and sadly this is the largest image I have of that scene. Nevertheless, one can make out good conduct badges and various other appointments, even though they are frustratingly small

[Muerrisch]

never mind, thank you. I think I can see medals, or medal ribbons, being worn too?

[Muerrisch]

More on headdress. The White Wolseley was in fact issue as khaki, with white cover, and was to last for four years.

Only one other "cap" was issued, which I take to be the Field Service Cap, [sidecap, chip bag], for informal wear, pretty much useless except to obey the dictum that soldiers must wear head gear out of doors. Whereas at Home there was a "cap, forage" and a "cap service dress", the function of the latter was subsumed in India by the khaki helmet. My limited photographic evidence suggests that the side cap, regimentally enhanced [of course] was indeed the forage cap. I have several photos of soldiers in India in the scarlet frock on parade wearing the Brodrick during that cap's brief existence [up to about 1906 in India], and the "staff sergeants" wearing their distinctive cap. More illustrations of these all would be welcomed.

The Balaklava was issued for winter campaigning.

[Muerrisch]

Here we have three sorts caps on 2nd RWF during the Brodrick era.

take a look at #79 on the drummer 1913 and tell me where it fits and what to call it!

[FROGSMILE]

never mind, thank you. I think I can see medals, or medal ribbons, being worn too?

Yes, definitely medal ribbons on the officers and majority of SNCOs.

[FROGSMILE]

More on headdress. The White Wolseley was in fact issue as khaki, with white cover, and was to last for four years.

Only one other "cap" was issued, which I take to be the Field Service Cap, [sidecap, chip bag], for informal wear, pretty much useless except to obey the dictum that soldiers must wear head gear out of doors. Whereas at Home there was a "cap, forage" and a "cap service dress", the function of the latter was subsumed in India by the khaki helmet. My limited photographic evidence suggests that the side cap, regimentally enhanced [of course] was indeed the forage cap. I have several photos of soldiers in India in the scarlet frock on parade wearing the Brodrick during that cap's brief existence [up to about 1906 in India], and the "staff sergeants" wearing their distinctive cap. More illustrations of these all would be welcomed.

The Balaklava was issued for winter campaigning.

The Field Service Cap was never officially nomenclatured as a Forage Cap. It was however, shortened to Field Cap.

[FROGSMILE]

Here we have three sorts caps on 2nd RWF during the Brodrick era.

take a look at #79 on the drummer 1913 and tell me where it fits and what to call it!

The drummer in #79 is wearing the 1905 Forage Cap (at that time plain blue for all arms and regiments, although officers had white covers) that officially replaced the Brodrick, although as with all such replacements the Brodricks were not withdrawn but wasted out. It would be down to CO's to dictate in what forms of dress the various types were worn.

[FROGSMILE]

More on headdress. The White Wolseley was in fact issue as khaki, with white cover, and was to last for four years.

Only one other "cap" was issued, which I take to be the Field Service Cap, [sidecap, chip bag], for informal wear, pretty much useless except to obey the dictum that soldiers must wear head gear out of doors. Whereas at Home there was a "cap, forage" and a "cap service dress", the function of the latter was subsumed in India by the khaki helmet. My limited photographic evidence suggests that the side cap, regimentally enhanced [of course] was indeed the forage cap. I have several photos of soldiers in India in the scarlet frock on parade wearing the Brodrick during that cap's brief existence [up to about 1906 in India], and the "staff sergeants" wearing their distinctive cap. More illustrations of these all would be welcomed.

The Balaklava was issued for winter campaigning.

And Field Service Cap, here worn by an RWF drummer. You can see the narrower wormed lace that I mentioned above running along the underside of his collar only.

[FROGSMILE]

And another in 1905 Forage Cap, this time from a Territorial Battalion. Notice his modified waist belt from the 1908 web equipment.

and a drummer at annual camp 1914. You can see the white lace with red worm tracing the cuffs and collar, adjacent to the crown and inch.

[FROGSMILE]

I believe that Blue Patrols became pretty much universal for SNCOs from just before the turn of the Century rather than between the wars and I enclose two photos as evidence, one is the Welsh Regt at Pembroke Dock Circa 1899 the second is the Cheshire Regt in Belfast in 1911, and the third the Essex Regiment in 1912.

Edited 6 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

That keeps the ball rolling nicely, thank you.

I infer that either the Forage cap with peak, or the side cap, were demi-official in India in terms of issue: as I said, only one "cap" was issued. I also checked Public clothing and Regimental necessaries. Or [and it would not be for the first time] there is an error of omission .......... or I misread.

Anyway, thats hats nicely illustrated, thank you.

Was the title Forage Cap official at that time?

I believe that Blue Patrols became pretty much universal for SNCOs from just before the turn of the Century rather than between the wars and I enclose two photos as evidence, one is the Welsh Regt at Pembroke Dock Circa 1899 and the other is the Cheshire Regt in Belfast in 1911.

These seem to be shy of pockets, or pocket buttons.

[FROGSMILE]

That keeps the ball rolling nicely, thank you.

I infer that either the Forage cap with peak, or the side cap, were demi-official in India in terms of issue: as I said, only one "cap" was issued. I also checked Public clothing and Regimental necessaries. Or [and it would not be for the first time] there is an error of omission .......... or I misread.

Anyway, thats hats nicely illustrated, thank you.

Was the title Forage Cap official at that time?

These seem to be shy of pockets, or pocket buttons.

I don't know if this type of forage cap was issued in India in 1914, but I mentioned it because it was the official replacement for the Brodrick.

The term Forage Cap is very old and was used consistently as far as I can tell as each replacement 'type' came into use. The Forage Cap was a generic term and referred to a headdress that was generally round in shape and either with, or without peak. The folding FSC was only ever (officially) called a Field Cap.

I could not get the photo larger. The rank and file are all in red home service frocks, but the Colour Sergeant and adjacent Sergeant (in centre front row) is in typical Blue Patrols with pleated chest and patch lower pockets. I have already sent you this photo in a huge format some time ago.

[FROGSMILE]

And here the Brodrick Forage Cap as worn by Line Infantry.

[FROGSMILE]

And border Regt with blue patrols at centre and forage caps for all circa 1914.

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks.

TO ALL:

I have received some private contributions from Frogsmile and Graham Stewart, to whom thanks, and will add them with commentary this weekend.

Next up afterwards will be odds and sods, underwear, campaign issues etc.

BUT WE DO NEED SOME JOCKS AND LIGHT BOBS MATERIAL TO HIGHLIGHT THE DIFFERENCES!

COME ON, MAKE THE EFFORT, PLEASE.

[Muerrisch]

The various issued bits and bobs as Personal Clothing from CR India 1914:

boots ankle dismounted 2 pairs [often one blackened, one dubbinned for field service] also specially nailed boots for some stations.

buttons, sets of nine, 2 [with key-ring type rear attachment]

hooks, waist 1

pads, shoulder, rifle 1

putties, pairs 1

and from Regimental Necessaries:

Badge cap 1

badge collar 2

bag universal 1

blacking, tin 1

braces pair 1

brass, button 1 [ie the button stick for shining parade]

brush blacking 1

bush brass 1

brush clothes 1

brush hair 1

brush polishing 1

brush shaving 1

brush tooth 1

comb, hair 1

more to come

[Muerrisch]

we now come to the delicate subject of underwear.

I have looked high and low [!] for mention of drawers or some other circumlocution.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THE LINE INFANTRY. THE ONLY MEN TO QUALIFY WERE:

KILTED JOCKS OF COURSE, CAVALRY, MOUNTED INFANTRY, ARTILLERY, AND THE INSANE.

Think about it! I do know that the working classes of that era often tucked their long shirt tails up through their legs for a bit of comfort and insulation but even British Infantry at Home and in the colonies were issued drawers. I bet the soldiers in India aquired some, sharpish!

Is there anyone out there reading this, please?

[Joe Sweeney]

we now come to the delicate subject of underwear.

I have looked high and low [!] for mention of drawers or some other circumlocution.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THE LINE INFANTRY. THE ONLY MEN TO QUALIFY WERE:

KILTED JOCKS OF COURSE, CAVALRY, MOUNTED INFANTRY, ARTILLERY, AND THE INSANE.

Think about it! I do know that the working classes of that era often tucked their long shirt tails up through their legs for a bit of comfort and insulation but even British Infantry at Home and in the colonies were issued drawers. I bet the soldiers in India aquired some, sharpish!

Is there anyone out there reading this, please?

Grumpy,

I had to go and verify your statement about Line Infantry not getting drawers (Calico) and Kilted getting them in the Indian Clothing Regs.

WOW great catch.

I'm wondering if an ammendment was published post fact as this seems the drawers issue is roughly opposite what one finds in the UK Clothing Regs.

Joe Sweeney