12th Bn Rifle Brigade

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

This was an attack to recapture Eagle Trench by parts of the 12th Rifle Brigade and the 61st Infantry Brigade. The attack commenced at 1900hrs with an artillery bombardment commencing at 18.30hrs. During the bombardment the men of the 12th Rifle Brigade would move forward from the Langemark - Alouette Farm Road and form up under the barrage. At 1900hrs the barrage would lift and the assault would be delivered. 11th Division would be asked to deal with Rat House and neighbourhood to protect the battalion from enfilade fire.

 

Andy

[Guest]

Thanks Andy - really appreciate the information you have given us. We are planning to visit the area on the 100th anniversary next year to pay our respects to all the men.

 

best regards

 

Dave

 

[Guest Mal4shore]

On 13 October 2010 at 01:36, stiletto_33853 said:

Part of the casualty list containing his name. There is a detailed report of the operations of the 3rd to the 6th in both the Brigade and battalion war diary if you require a copy.

Andy

 

Oh my goodness my Nan's brother is on this list, Cpl Walter Hirt

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi,

 

My Grandad Richard Augustus Murrow  (Jnr) was a private in the 12 Battn Rifle Brigade (477) serving in the Labour Corps (640527), he was wounded 7 October 1915 possible at Laventie attacking towards Fromelles ?  I am arranging to take my father to this area in the summer 2018 to show him where he fought. I am looking to find exactly where and how my Grandfather was wounded. We are unsure if he was discharged or patched-up and moved to the Labour Corps. I understand that the Labour Corps normally contained wounded soldiers. Can anybody help with his movements around that time etc? 

 

I have enclosed a picture of a group of the 12 Battn at Loos on 25 September 1915. They have spelt my Grandad's name wrong naming him (7) Murrell instead of Murrow. Does anybody know why was Seaford mentioned, did this group survive until Seaford?

 

 

 

 

Kind Regards 

 

Stuart Murrow 

[stiletto_33853]

Stuart,

The battalion were in billets on the 7th. Working parties were found for front line and communication trenches.

 

Seaford camp comes into the mix as this became the home of the 14th & 15th battalion of the Rifle Brigade where your grandfather could have been placed if wounded lightly. I have come across this several times and have a similar picture of the 12th at Seaford Camp.

He went overseas with the battalion on 21/7/15. There is a casualty report for wounded in action for an R. Murrow on 25/9/15 although the number is 1144, quite a common mistake on these casualty lists. I wonder if this is him?? as there is no record in the October 1915 casualty lists. I cannot find a surviving record for him.

 

aNDY

[Stuart Murrow]

On 08/02/2018 at 00:40, stiletto_33853 said:

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you very much for your reply, Murrow is a rare surname. There are only a few on the Forces War Record during that period, my Great Grandad Richard Augustus (SNR)  joined  the New South Borders in the depo, my Great Uncle William Henry Murrow joined the 21 (County of London) Battalion (1st Surrey Rifles) and my second Great Uncle Walter Murrow joine 24 th (County of London) Battalion (The Queens) and was killed around the somme in 1918.

 

My Grandad's medical records show those serial numbers but the Forces War Records do show s.1144 and I may have missed read the information shown by Forces War Record state incident 7 October 2015 but also show a map with 25 09 1915 on it. So yes this is him on your casualty list. Forces War record state that 12th Batt. were in and around Mauquissart on the 250915  fighting a subsidiary action to the main Loos attack. 

 

Do you have any details what the 12th Batt. were doing on 25 Septmber 2015? So we can visit that area in the summer.

 

My Dad has shown me photos of the family 1918/1919 with my Grandad in miltary uniform so he must have recovered and sent back to become part of the Labour Corps. 

Kind Regards Stuart Murrow 

 

 

 

On 08/02/2018 at 00:40, stiletto_33853 said:

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Stuart,

I will dig out the orders and account shortly for you. Interesting as the photo I have is the same as yours.

 

Andy

[Guest]

Our Great Great Uncle Percy Hulse was in the 12th Rifle Brigade. We are trying to find a picture of him. Can anyone help?  He died in 1915.

[stiletto_33853]

Stuart,

The 12th RB at Pietre

The action at Pietre began at 6 a.m. on the 25th with the assault of the Meerut Division on Mauquissait. It had been preceeded by a steady bombardment of four days and an intense bombardment of them minutes. The Indians had already reached the German third line before 6.30 a.m. and were pressing on towards the Moulin du Pietre. But the attack of the 12th Rifle Brigade was not timed to begin with that of the Meerut Division, it was not to be launched until orders were received, the nature of which would depend on the result of the Indian attack. At 7.30 a.m. orders reached Battalion Headquarters to advance and join up with the Meerut Division. By this time however all telephone communication with the assaulting companies were cut, and it was not until 8.25 that "D" Company (Captain G. F. Finch) received it's orders and went over the top. "B" and "C" Companies (Captain L.C.F. Oldfield and Major R.E. Nott-Bower) were to follow in support, and "A" Company was to begin digging a communication trench out to the enemy front-line. By 9.30 a.m. despite heavy casualties caused by enfilade machine gun fire at **** range, all three assaulting companies were in the German trenches. Two of the company commanders were out of action, Captain Oldfield had been killed and Major Nott-Bower had been wounded in the head. The digging party detailed by "A" Company suffered severely and made little progress. Shortly afterwards  this company was relieved by a company of the 6th K.S.L.I. and endeavoured to join the rest of the battalion. One platoon under Lieutenant L.C.B. Russell succeeded in making an entry into the German line, and having bombed to a point where the communication trench was to join up, endeavoured to dig back to meet it. This was rapidly checked by enfilade fire. The remainder of "A" Company could only get half way across and took cover in an open ditch. HQ with the commanding officer (Lieut.-Col. W. G. Piggott) and the Adjutant (Captain R. U. H. Prioleau) moved forward to an advanced report centre at 8.30 a.m. No sooner had they arrived when a heavy shell burst in among them, killing the entire party with the exception of the commanding officer and the Adjutant, and in addition wrecked  the Regimental aid post, killing the corporal in charge, many orderlies and a number of the wounded. The Medical Officer, Captain G. Malim R.A.M.C., was knocked senseless but recovered and continued his work single handed. Within a few minutes another direct hit on the parapet hurled hi into the air and exposed what remained of the aid post to the full view of the enemy. Nevertheless Captain Malim worked on for twenty-four hours attending single handed to more than 400 cases. He was awarded the Victoria Cross and richly deserved it.

News had come through that Captain Finch had taken the German third line with "D" Company, and was consolidating. Shortly afterwards Captain T.E Holland who had taken command of "B" Company reported back that the Indians were falling back, that his bombs had run out, and that without re-inforcement and some counter action to the machine gun fire from the left, it would be impossible to hold out. What had happened was what might reasonably have been foreseen. The Bareilly Brigade had made a spirited attack and had carried all before it. The enemy on the right flank was sufficiently engaged with the situation from Festubert to Lens. But the left was virtually unoccupied, and engaged the attackers heavily.. By the time the order had filtered through to the assaulting companies the 12th battalion, the Indians been receiving a steadily increasing measure of attention for two and a half hours. By the time the 12th battalion had battled across, against the furious machine gun fire from the left, a further hour had been spent and the rot had set in. The Bareilly Brigade was dispirited and its dash had gone. The 1st Black Watch held out unmoved, but the native troops gave way. By 11.30 a.m. a company of the Shropshire's was sent forward to re-inforce. The 12th RB had worked its way steadily forward almost to the Moulin du Pietre and was in touch with the Black Watch in that neighbourhood. The Indians however were retiring, the Germans were advancing in force and the supply of bombs had run out. To make matters worse the artillery was still shelling the captured trenches in the belief that were still held by the enemy. In these circumstances the officer commanding The Black Watch informed the senior officer of the Rifle Brigade that he proposed to withdraw. There was no other course open except to do the same. By half past twelve the 12th RB were back in its trenches less seven officers and three hundred and twenty two other ranks killed, wounded or missing.

 

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Stuart,

Divisional Time line & casualties.

[MBrockway]

We've had a few topics on the 12/RB Pietre Mill action from 25 Sep 1915.

 

As Andy mentions above, Lt George Maling, RAMC, the 12/RB battalion Medical Officer, won the VC on this day.  LG VC citation here

 

On 02 October 2007 at 16:35, MBrockway said:

Kevin,

There are already quite a few informative Topics on this action - supposedly a "diversion" for the main battle at Loos

Andy is the RB expert and has already replied. Neil's info on the Black Watch also gives a lot of info on 12/RB's involvement (though occasionally they are mistakenly called 12/KRRC).

Try these links:

Loos,25th September 1915, attack towards Fromelles by Bareilly Division

Loos 25th September 1915 Rifle Brigade, attack towards Fromelles

Lt C R C Maltby 12th Bn Rifle Brigade, any more infomation ?

and here's a 1918 Trench Map of the Chapigny Farm/Mauquissart/Moulin de Pietre area where the attack took place:

(sorry it's a bit hard to read!)

The Moulin is 'Pietre Mill' in the centre of the lower right quadrant.

Winchester Road (presumably named after Rifles Depot??) crosses the edge of the map just S of the top left corner.

The road bend in Mauquissart is 3/4s down the centre line.I assume the cluster of blue symbols just left of the centre line represents the craters caused by exploding the mine.

Cheers,

Mark

 

Edited 24 February , 2018 by MBrockway

[stiletto_33853]

Thanks Mark,

Knew we had covered this before. As you can read from the account certainly not the best planned attack.

 

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Divagothica,

Your great uncle was wounded on the 25th and died of wounds sustained on 26th, reported by Officer commanding Number 7, Casualty Clearing Station. On the 26th the battalion were in billets having been relieved late on the 25th, all companies were in billets by 10 pm on the 25th. I have searched through all my photographs of the 12th and unfortunately do not have a picture of him.

 

Andy

Edited 25 February , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you so much to you and Mark for the information, the information was shown to my Uncle on his 91 birthday and he was pretty emotional with regard to finding out about his Dad after all these years. Looking forward to finding the area in August. He sent this to me to show you,  Richard Augustus Murrow, we have no idea of the year or where it was taken. We do have a dated of picture 1919 showing him in uniform with his firstborn child.

Kind Regards

Stuart Murrow 

 

[MBrockway]

On 21/02/2018 at 11:45, stiletto_33853 said:

Hi Stuart,

I will dig out the orders and account shortly for you. Interesting as the photo I have is the same as yours.

 

Andy

 

The Monthly Army List for August 1916 has Capt. (temp. Lt.-Col.) Wellesley George Pigott (retired) as the CO of 15th (Reserve) Battalion, The Rifle Brigade, and also lists a Capt F. Harrison (Lt., Rif. Brig.) in the same battalion, so this photo is 90% certainly 15/RB at Seaford.

 

On 01 September 1916. 15/RB was re-organised as 20th Battalion of the newly formed Training Reserve.  Interestingly the Monthly Army List for September 1916 has Col. Pigott as CO of the TR's 18th Bn, which had formerly been 15/KRRC, also at Seaford.  20/TR is listed as commanded by Maj. (temp. Lt.-Col.) F.C.L. Logan, Reserve of Officers.  Logan had been CO of 11/LNL, who were also at Seaford and became 17/TR in Sep 1916.  Logan was not RB, but ex Lancashire Fusiliers.  Pigott was RB through and through.  He had been Adjutant of the Rifle Depot in the 1890's.

 

 

Considering the photo is dated 25th September 1916, which is exactly one year after the 12/RB action at Pietre Mill action in the Laventie sector, I would suggest this is an anniversary 'survivors' group of 12/RB wounded from that attack, who are still in Blighty working back to full fitness with 15/RB at Seaford.

 

Although the Pietre Mill action was some distance to the north of the main battle area at Loos, it was considered a subsidiary action of the Battle of Loos, hence the reference to 'At LOOS, 25th September, 1915' on the photo mount.

 

In your grandfather's case, he may never have returned to full A1 fitness, hence his transfer to the Labour Corps, though it always possible that transfer happened due to some later event.

 

Certainly three or four of these names appear in Andy's extract from casualty report above. Total 12/RB wounded were ~150, so we're only seeing a small section of the full list there.

 

Some of the officers (e.g. Col Piggott) and SNCO's are likely to be the permanent staff based with the Reserve battalion, but Capt HARRISON, is probably the Lt Harrison mentioned as Wounded in the War Diary. 

 

Mark

 

Edited 14 March , 2018 by MBrockway
Not Sleaford, but Seaford- doh!

[MBrockway]

On 11/03/2018 at 21:57, Stuart Murrow said:

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you so much to you and Mark for the information, the information was shown to my Uncle on his 91 birthday and he was pretty emotional with regard to finding out about his Dad after all these years. Looking forward to finding the area in August. He sent this to me to show you,  Richard Augustus Murrow, we have no idea of the year or where it was taken. We do have a dated of picture 1919 showing him in uniform with his firstborn child.

Kind Regards

Stuart Murrow 

 

 

Wonderful picture of a very well turned-out rifleman!  Thanks for sharing it.

 

As regards date, he has a single wound stripe.  The 25 Sep 1915 Pietre Mill attack was 20th (Light) Division's first major action.  Since landing in July 1915, they had mostly been in the Laventie 'nursery' sector.  While casualties from routine trench warfare 'business as usual' were endured from the moment they arrived in the trenches, I'd say Murrow's wound stripe here is likely to be from the 25 Sep 1915 attack.  He would definitely have been awarded one for that.

 

The inverted V directly above the wound stripe is a Good Conduct Chevron.  These were awarded for a clean disciplinary record, or looking at it another way, undetected crime!

 

The first chevron was awarded on keeping a clean sheet for two years, so the earliest this photo can be is two years from when Murrow volunteered.  His S/1144 service number points to an early Kitchener volunteer, probably enlisting in Sep/Oct 1914.  Andy may be able to give a tighter time window.  That would give the photo an earliest possible date of approx Sep 1916, i.e. around the same time as the group photo.  This also reinforces the likelihood of the wound stripe relating to the 25 Sep 1915 battle.

 

The extremely well-bulled toecaps probably suggest he's in Blighty rather than at the Front.  Again, this suggests his time at Seaford.

 

He's still in RB uniform rather than Labour Corps, so it must pre-date his LC transfer.

 

No 1914-15 Star ribbon up, so likely to be earlier than 1919.  These began to be worn early in 1919.

 

Does your 1919 photo show him cap badged to the RB or to the LC?  And does he have medal ribbons displayed?

 

Mark

Edited 14 March , 2018 by MBrockway

[stiletto_33853]

Stuart,

Thank you for the great image of Richard. As Mark has said W. G. Pigott in August 1916 was listed as retired having been invalided from France in June 1916. He went out  to France with the 12th RB in July 1915 as second in command, having joined them on their formation in 1914. In September 1915 he assumed command of the 12th RB and remained in command until he was invalided out.

Mark has dated the image.

Please pass our respects on to your Uncle and I am glad that we helped him a little towards understanding a little of his Army career.

 

Andy

Edited 12 March , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[MBrockway]

On 07/02/2018 at 22:47, Stuart Murrow said:

My Grandad Richard Augustus Murrow  (Jnr) was a private in the 12 Battn Rifle Brigade (477) serving in the Labour Corps (640527), he was wounded 7 October 1915 possible at Laventie attacking towards Fromelles ? 

<snip>

Stuart Murrow 

 

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

<snip>

His S/1144 service number points to an early Kitchener volunteer, probably enlisting in Sep/Oct 1914.  Andy may be able to give a tighter time window.  That would give the photo an earliest possible date of approx Sep 1916, i.e. around the same time as the group photo. 

Mark

 

I got S/1144 from the casualty report posted by Andy higher up ...

 

 

However Murrow's medal index card, his Labour Corps 1914-15 Star roll entry and his Labour Corps British War & Victory Medal roll entry all have his RB service number as 477, as per Stuart's original post.

 

Service Number S/1144 is missing from the Rifle Brigade equivalents of those medal rolls.  This means the number was allocated, but either the man never went overseas, or he finished the war in another unit.

 

477 would normally indicate a Rifle Brigade Regular who'd enlisted in 1904!

 

Andy and I have checked for 477 with one of the various RB letter prefixes in case this may have been left off in error - a not uncommon occurrence.  We have eliminated B/477, Z/477, S/477 and 6/477: these were all issued to other riflemen.  We cannot find 5/477, but adjacent 5/47x numbers suggest transfers from the RASC some way into the war, so we *think* that can safely be ignored.  NB though - there are other 5/4xx service numbers within 10-20 digits who definitely were out fighting in 1915.

 

477 only seem to appear as Murrow's RB service number in paperwork originating from the Labour Corps.  The only pukka Rifle Brigade reference for him that we've found so far has him as S/1144 and generally service numbers in casualty reports are pretty reliable - for obvious reasons.

 

After a chat on the phone going over the angles, Andy and I are pretty confident that Murrow's real Rifle Brigade Service Number would have been S/1144.

 

His MIC has the 1914-15 Star marked as to be inscribed to the Rifle Brigade, but his other two medals to the Labour Corps.  If you have his medals, you may well find the SN on his Star is 477 since that's what's on his MIC.

 

Hope this all makes sense!

Mark

 

Edited 12 March , 2018 by MBrockway

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you so much to you and Mark for the information, the information was shown to my Uncle on his 91 birthday and he was pretty emotional with regard to finding out about his Dad after all these years. Looking forward to finding the area in August. He sent this to me to show you,  Richard Augustus Murrow, we have no idea of the year or where it was taken. We do have a dated of picture 1919 showing him in uniform with his firstborn child.

Kind Regards

Stuart Murrow 

 

[Stuart Murrow]

Dear Andy and Mark,

 

My Dad has checked the  1914/1915 Star and it shows 477 Private R A Murrow Rifle Brigade.

The medals of my Great Grandad (South Wales Borders)top, middle my Grandad and my Great Uncle Walter Murrow, 24th (County of London) Battalion (The Queen's )  Death Plaque.

 

 

[Stuart Murrow]

Dear Andy and Mark,

 

With regard to the pictures, there is some confusion of the year between my Dad and Uncle but the firstborn picture was definitely October 1918 not 1919.  I have also sent the wedding picture which we believe was early 1918 and still shows the RB badge, the man on the right is his best man (name unknown but with a RB badge) the man on the left is my Great Grandad (now retired from Army life !).

 

I was talking to my Dad about the 25 September 1915 map that you sent and mentioned  the Gurkhas Battalions, he laughed and said his father's favourite war joke was at the expense of the Germans " You may miss the British bullets but you better check your neck" with regard to the Gurkhas use of the Khukuri !

 

Geoff Bridger's book on the battle of Neuve Chapelle arrived today and has some great photos of the battlefield area in March 2015 which will help me with the location.

 

Kind Regards 

 

Stuart Murrow 

[MBrockway]

10 hours ago, Stuart Murrow said:

I have also sent the wedding picture which we believe was early 1918 and still shows the RB badge, the man on the right is his best man (name unknown but with a RB badge) the man on the left is my Great Grandad (now retired from Army life !).

 

 

If you can get hold of the marriage register entry, you may find the unidentified RB serjeant was one of the witnesses and with luck his name may be legible!

 

The marriage of Richard Augustus MURROW (Junior) and Gladys BAWCUTT was registered in Northampton Registration District in Q1 1918.

 

A long shot, but Gladys appears to have had a brother Lionel BAWCUTT.  There's a medal index card for a Private Lionel Bawcutt.  He served in three units:

1. Northamptonshire Regt, SN 4006
2. 23rd London Regt, SN 405040
3. Rifle Brigade, SN 211086.

He was certainly not a serjeant at the end of the war though and I have absolutely no evidence that this soldier is Gladys's brother.  Also that RB service number suggests one of the territorial garrison battalions affiliated to the RB, which were spread around the Empire in 1918.  Definitely a long shot, but could be worth exploring

 

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for that information I have subsequently found out the marriage was 21 March 1918, my Dad was named after two of his uncles, William and Lionel. Very interesting about Lionel, we were unaware of the RB connection. Perhaps my Grandma met my Grandad via Lionel through the Rifle Brigade!  

 

Do you have the dates when Lionel joined each Battalion?

 

Kind Regards

Stuart Murrow 

 

[MBrockway]

I am not saying that the soldier who was in the Northants, 23rd Londons & the RB was your Great Uncle Lionel Bawcutt - it could just be coincidence: I think there needs to be some research legwork done before we can be sure they are the same man. 

[MBrockway]

3 hours ago, Stuart Murrow said:

Do you have the dates when Lionel joined each Battalion?

 

 

You're in luck ...

 

The theatre codes are ...

4(a) - Egypt

4(b) - Egyptian Expeditionary Force (including Palestine)

2(a) - Salonika, Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria & European Turkey

 

That suggests he was in 2nd/23rd London Regt, who were in 181 Infantry Brigade in 60th (2/2nd London) Division, rather than 1st/23rd Londons.

 

22/Rifle Brigade were in 228 Infantry Brigade, who were Army Troops in Salonika, but associated with 28th Division.

 

It is possible this man may have seen action in Salonika, whereas most of the RB's Territorial Force battalions (18-24th bns) were on garrison duties.  He appears to have transferred to 22/RB while in Salonika rather than gone out as one of the Supernumerary National Reservists from which 22/RB was originally formed.  It is also possible he saw action with 1st/4th Northants (162 Brigade, 54th (East Anglian) Division) in Gaza.

 

See here for more detail:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/

 

This man ended the war as a Lance Corporal.  It is possible he'd been a Serjeant earlier and lost two stripes before the Armistice, but that does not seem likely.

 

I stress though that I am not sure this Lionel Bawcutt is your great uncle.  So far I have failed to turn up a service record for him or anything definitive showing his UK connections.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 March , 2018 by MBrockway