12th Bn Rifle Brigade

[MBrockway]

Could the man in the wedding photo be Serjeant Horace William TOMBLESON seen in the 15/RB 'survivor' photo?

 

 

Tombleson seems to come from 40 Halstead Street, Brixton, which has now disappeared, but was off ROBSART STREET.  Not that far from King's Court, Southwark where Richard Augustus MURROW was living with his parents in 1911, nor from 44 Naylor Road, Peckham, where Richard's mother is living in 1920.

 

Tombleson also appears to have gone into the Labour Corps.

 

 

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi Mark,

My Grandmother and the Bawcutt family came from Northampton, and as Lionel joined the Northamptonshire Regiment first it could be him. My Dad only remembers him as an old man but shorter than the person in the wedding photo. Perhaps my Uncle may remember what Lionel got up to during the War and I will ask about Serjeant Horace William TOMBLESON with him too and let you know.

 

Once again thank you for your time and investigating skills.

 

Stuart  

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

Here's what I have on Horace William Tombleson.

 

Horace William Tombleson has a birth registered in Q2 1889 in Wisbech RD, which straddles Norfolk and Cambridgeshire.

 

Horace was married to Kate Jessie Maud DAVY, on 27 Apr 1912, at All Saints, South Lambeth, marriage registered in Lambeth RD, and in 1920 was living at 40 Halstead St., Brixton.  Kate was born 23 Feb 1892.  Kate's death was registered in Q4 1969 in Wandsworth RD.

 

Horace enlisted on 09 Sep 1914 into the Rifle Brigade, probably posted to 12/RB, though some of the Sep 1914 Kitchener volunteers were initially in the K1 battalions (7th, 8th & 9th RB) before being split out to form the new K2 battalions.  He went out (as a Corporal) to France on 21 July 1915, so he was almost certainly a 12/RB original.  His RB service number was 2662, but that is probably S/2662.

 

He was wounded at the Pietre Mill action at the Battle of Loos on 25 Sep 1915 and repatriated back to Blighty.  On leaving hospital he ended up in 15/RB at Sleaford, where he was present in Sep 1916 for the Battle of Loos 'survivors' photo.

 

In Sep 1916, 15/RB became 20th Battalion of the new Training Reserve.  Horace, now a Serjeant, was re-numbered TR/13/18108.

 

He was transferred to 363 Coy, Labour Corps with SN 207795.  Bear in mind it would be worth investigating whether this was also Richard Murrow's LC unit.  I'd say there is a good chance that this unit was UK-based, but we'd need to get help from our Labour Corps Pals to confirm this.

 

He was discharged with a Silver War Badge on 28 Aug 1918 aged 28 due to wounds.

 

Horace and Kate appear in the Electoral Roll together at 40 Halstead Street until the 1928 roll, when Kate is alone at Halstead St and Horace is at 36 Seymour House, Compton Street, with a Margaret Tombleson.  This address is now Seymour House, Tavistock Place, WC1, in St Pancras.  I assume Horace's first marriage has broken down.

 

Horace was then married to Maggie TENNET in Q4, 1929, marriage registered in St. Pancras RD. 

 

Horace and Maggie appear to have then lived out in Harrow (Ravenswood Crescent) from the mid 1930's to at least 1956.

 

There are Probate Calendar entries in 1960 showing Maggie died 08 Jan 1960.  She had been living at 63 West St., Northampton.  Her death is registered aged 72 yrs in Q1 1960 in Brixworth RD, which is in Northants.  Also that Horace William Tombleson (#2) died on 04 Apr 1960 at St Crispin Hospital, Duston, Northants. His death is also registered in Brixworth RD but for Q2 1960 aged 70 yrs.

 

Since it looks like Horace Tombleson ended his days in Northamptonshire, I thought you would be interested in all this detail.

 

Mark

 

 

[MBrockway]

363 Reserve Employment Company, Labour Corps, were indeed UK-based.

 

More info here:

 

 

[Hedgehogamous]

My Gt Grandfather Rifleman Charles John Pitches was in the 12th Battalion, Rifle Brigade. Wounded 4th June 1917, died 19th June 1917, buried Grevillers. He left behind a wife and 3 young daughters, one of whom was my Grandma. I have found his medal cards and casualty/death records, but have had no joy with his service records. Planning a trip next year to the cemetery and would dearly like to know more about his journey. I believe he was taken to a CCS near Grevillers. There are letters from the Sister to his wife about his progress. Is there a way to find out what action he was involved in around 4 June 17 and where he was taken once wounded? His service number was S/25865.

This is him with his family

[MBrockway]

12/RB's Daily Casualty Report dated 08 June 1917 lists an S/25865 Rfn PITCHER, G.J. Wounded in Action 04 Jun 1917.  Presumably the name and initials are a typo.

 

The Casualty Report dated 22 Jun 1917 has S/25865 Rfn PITCHES, C.J. Died of Wounds 19 Jun 1917 having been wounded in action on 04 Jun 1917.  The battalion received the report from the OC (Officer commanding) No 29 Casualty Clearing Station, so Charles is almost certain to have died there.

 

No 29 CCS moved to GREVILLERS just to the W of BAPAUME in May 1917.

 

At this time 12/RB were holding the divisional left sub-sector to the north of NOREUIL facing the German positions on the Hindenburg Line between BULLECOURT and QUEANT.

 

 

Edit: here's the map Key I neglected to post originally - my apologies!

The triangles are Machine Gun positions.  The 'Noreuil Sector' was the left (North) sector.  The 'Lagnicourt Sector' the right (South) sector.  The 'Third Line' is off this crop of the original map.

 

Bn HQ seems to have been at 57c.C.5.d.2.8

 

As regards Charlie's evacuation chain ...

• Regimental Aid Post was at 57c.C.5.c.7.8 with a Supplementary RAP at 57c.C.5.a.2.3
• Relay Post at 57c.C.11.a.3.9
• Collecting Post at 57c.C.10.c.7.9
• Loading Post at 57c.C.15.a.9.9
• Main Dressing Station at 57c.C.20.d.3.6

 ... which is why I had to include so much map above!

 

 

The various diaries report artillery shelling on the 4th, so Charles is most likely to have been wounded by shrapnel etc.

 

Andy may well be able to add more detail.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 August , 2018 by MBrockway

[Hedgehogamous]

Mark, thank you so much for all this wonderful information. I downloaded the war diaries for 12/RB hoping for details of what they were doing and there is loads of information, but sadly on 4th June, the day he was wounded the only entry is 'casualties'. I did notice it mentions earlier that groups of 6 soldiers and an NCO were places at each post on the line. I wondered when I saw the daily casualty report for 4/6 and there were 2 L/Cpl plus 13 men whether perhaps a couple of these posts had been hit by shells.

The map is wonderful, could you perhaps explain a couple of things about how to read it? I get the C5,10,15 part of the reference, but not sure how to make sense of the next bit, a.2.3 etc. Also, the little red, blue and brown triangular notations, what do they mean?

I have found a photograph taken 14 May 1917 looking towards Noreuil ( https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/E00504/ ), amazing to think this was the landscape he was evacuated over and that Grevillers was a further 10k from the main dressing station!

I'm now going to try and trace is brother Bertie Daniel Pitches S/25745 who was at onepoint in 1/RB, and discharged 25/2/19.

Thanks again,

Deborah

Edited 2 August , 2018 by Hedgehogamous

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, Hedgehogamous said:

The map is wonderful, could you perhaps explain a couple of things about how to read it? I get the C5,10,15 part of the reference, but not sure how to make sense of the next bit, a.2.3 etc.

Thanks again,

Deborah

 

Re trench map refs - you have a forum Personal Message from me on that.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, Hedgehogamous said:

Also, the little red, blue and brown triangular notations, what do they mean?

Deborah

 

My apologies - I cropped the Key to post separately, but then forgot to do so

 

I've now added it to the post.

 

The triangles are Machine Gun positions with their approximate field of fire, but not their range, which would be considerably greater than these triangles!

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

5 hours ago, Hedgehogamous said:

I have found a photograph taken 14 May 1917 looking towards Noeuil ( https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/E00504/ ), amazing to think this was the landscape he was evacuated over and that Grevillers was a further 10k from the main dressing station!

 

Thanks again,

Deborah

This topic has a photo of the German Hindenberg Line in front of BULLECOURT close to 12/RB's positions and will give you a good idea of what they were facing ...

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, Hedgehogamous said:

I'm now going to try and trace is brother Bertie Daniel Pitches S/25745 who was at onepoint in 1/RB, and discharged 25/2/19.

Thanks again,

Deborah

 

Really we should start a fresh standalone topic for Bertie as he is not connected to 12/RB other than through his brother.  However, here's what I have found.  Andy may have more detail on 1/RB casualty reports and he's certainly a lot more familiar with the RB sources than I am.

 

PITCHES, Herbert (Bertie) Daniel

Birth registered in Lewisham RD in Q1 1890
Marriage to Millicent O. TAMPLIN registered in St. Olave Bermondsey RD in Q3 1913
Death registered in Lewisham RD in Q1 1947

 

S/25745, 1st Bn, The Rifle Brigade (in 11th Infantry Brigade, 4th Division)
11 Dec 1915 - Enlisted into The Rifle Brigade (probably under the Derby Scheme)
04 Aug 1916 - embarked in France & Flanders & joined 1/RB in the Field
08 May 1917 - repatriated to England, probably Wounded
[in May 1917, 4th Division (incl 1/RB) were in XVII Corps, Third Army and taking part in the Battle of Arras]

 

Transferred to Royal Defence Corps with new service number 85268

This is likely to be because he was medically downgraded after recuperating from his wounding and was not deemed fit enough to return to the Front.

See:
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-defence-corps-of-1916-1918/

 

25 Feb 1919 - Discharged with Silver War Badge due to Wounds, aged 29 years.

 

On 04 May 1917, 1/RB made a night assault by bayonet at 03:00hrs on ROEUX CHATEAU as part of the Battle of Arras.

 

ROEUX is approx 4km to the E of ARRAS.  The Chateau is at Ref 51b.I.13.d.0.0.

 

Further attacks were made in this general area over the next few days, but there are no name casualty reports in the battalion war diary for May 1917.

 

The battalion's losses 2-13 May 1917 were - Officers: 8 wounded; OR's: 23 killed, 166 wounded, 9 missing.

 

It's possible of course that Bertie was in the medical evacuation chain longer than usual and had been wounded earlier than May 1917 but had been held at a CCS for stabilisation before transport to the Base Hospitals and England.

 

HTH

Mark

Edited 2 August , 2018 by MBrockway

[Hedgehogamous]

Mark, you are an absolute star, thank you so much for all this wonderful information! I wondered if Bertie had been wounded when I saw the change from 1/RB to RDC, but when I was searching couldn't find any casualty records either, will keep looking. I know my Dad has some letters between Bertie and Charlie whilst in France. So sad to think they were wounded only a month apart. Also discovered today their elder brother George Henry Pitches was in the RFC (30819) 7 June 16 for DOW as a rigger/mechanic 3rd class. Looks like he was in France Jan 17 - 25 Dec 17 with 35 Sqn then reassigned to 7 TDS. 35 sqn were involved in Arras too it seems.

Thanks again

Deborah

[Stuart Murrow]

On 24/02/2018 at 20:56, MBrockway said:

We've had a few topics on the 12/RB Pietre Mill action from 25 Sep 1915.

 

As Andy mentions above, Lt George Maling, RAMC, the 12/RB battalion Medical Officer, won the VC on this day.  LG VC citation here

 

 

 

[Stuart Murrow]

On 24/02/2018 at 20:56, MBrockway said:

We've had a few topics on the 12/RB Pietre Mill action from 25 Sep 1915.

 

As Andy mentions above, Lt George Maling, RAMC, the 12/RB battalion Medical Officer, won the VC on this day.  LG VC citation here

 

 

On 24/02/2018 at 20:56, MBrockway said:

 

 

 

Dear Mark and Andy,

 

I thought I would drop you a line after all the research that you did, maps and war diaries checked; I and my Dad did trace my Grandfather steps on the 25 September 1915. The first picture shows inside the German bunker close to Mauqissart looking over the right of the battlefield, the second from the top of the German bunker looking towards Pietre Mill in the distance and thirdly location of the chimney adjacent to the Mill where the 12 Battalion reached on that day before retreating taking heavy casualties. We managed to locate other areas where he was billeted from the war diaries. We had a fantastic week tracing our relatives over Northern France and Belgium;  my Dad was so pleased so all the research was worth it- thank you so much.

 

I will now continue to research my other Great Uncle Lionel Bawcett.

 

Kind Regards 

 

Stuart Murrow

 

[stiletto_33853]

Stuart,

So happy you managed to trace everything and had a good time.

 

Andy

[MBrockway]

Fantastic photos Stuart.  I'm so pleased you and your Dad were able to explore so well and remember your grandfather.  These things are important

 

Don't think we've posted this map of the 25th Sep action yet.  The furthest positions reached by 12/RB are shown in light green dashes ...

 

 

Best read in conjunction with the battle report Andy posted higher up ....

 

The two ends of the communication trench 'A' Coy attempted to dig across No Man's Land are well seen.

 

Could you give us the approximate position of the German bunker in your photo?

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

[Stuart Murrow]

Hi Mark,

 

This is the map we used a Cart De Randonee Armentieres 2404 1:25 000 on the day, the bunker is at bottom of the map, the orange pentagon. 

In the second picture my Dad is standing next to the bunker the River  Layes is to right (more of a ditch these days) and Le Moulin Pietre follows the line of the River by the trees. The third picture is approximately where the red arrow is on our map probably where the sap construction is sited in the battle map. 

Stuart 

[Guest]

Hello, I am trying to find out any information regarding my Great Grandfather Rifleman John Hayward. S/21436. 12th Battalion.

 

Accoding to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, he died on June 4th 1917.  I know that he is buried in Noreuil Cemetery.

 

Can anyone provide any further information?

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, Kry said:

Hello, I am trying to find out any information regarding my Great Grandfather Rifleman John Hayward. S/21436. 12th Battalion.

 

Accoding to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, he died on June 4th 1917.  I know that he is buried in Noreuil Cemetery.

 

Can anyone provide any further information?

 

Looking at the soldiers effects records we can see his estate was paid £3 net war gratuity - this tells us he had less than 12 months service at the time of his death.

 

Craig

[Guest]

Thank you Craig,

My Grandfather used to tell me how hard times were after his father had died, leaving a large number of children fatherless.

£3, not much for a life is it?!

Edited 11 November , 2018 by Guest

[ss002d6252]

19 minutes ago, Kry said:

Thank you Craig,

My Grandfather used to tell me how hard times were after his father had died, leaving a large number of children fatherless.

£3, not much for a life is it?!

Strictly speaking it was £5 paid but they had £2 under another type of gratuity scheme and then decided, retrospectively, that the monies would be offset so you didn't get both !

 

Craig

[Drummergirl]

Hi,

I was wondering if you had any information on my great uncle, S/1873 Rifleman Lance Corporal Edward John Legg - 12 Battalion Rifle Brigade. He came from Australia and was a seaman and landed in England, and while waiting to pick up a ship, joined up. He was with the Winchester Rifles. He was posted to the 9th and then the 12th. He was 24 years 256 days old on enlistment. He was wounded in action 6.6.16 and 13.8.16 Reported Missing 7.10.16. His name is on the Thiepval Monument. We visited there in July this year. I think he went missing around the Meteorologic Trenches. Any information on the regiment or anything anything else would be gratefully accepted.His brother, my grandfather, joined in Australia and went over, but they never met again.

[MBrockway]

Interesting photograph showing what ?looks like? Service Dress khaki trousers worn with one of the variants of the rifle green five button dress tunic, not the khaki SD jacket.

 

Note the pocket flap at the hip.  I cannot see piping either.  For a KRRC rifleman, this would point to the less formal version of the tunic, with the 'best' version having red piping and a more elaborate collar, but I am not 100% certain of how the Rifle Brigade tunics were detailed.

 

Similarly his cap looks like it might be rifle green with *possibly* patent leatherwork, rather than the khaki SD version.

 

I suspect this photo dates from the period when the Kitchener K1 (incl 9/RB) and K2 (incl 12/RB) volunteers had been formed in England but were still not completely equipped with correct Service Dress.  The uniform items seen here might well have been from old stocks in the Rifle Depot.

 

Andy has some source material on how 14th (Light) and 20th (Light) Divisions progressed from parading completely in civvies, through 'Kitchener Blues', through partial khaki Service Dress, before they were finally properly uniformed in the first half of 1915.  At one point sets of complete uniform were rotated between the men to allow those 'walking out' into town to look smart!

 

He'll be very interested in this photo!

 

Mark

 

 

[MBrockway]

Given the detail you've given us, it was clear you had found his service record.  Here is some further detail from that ...

 

08 Sep 1914 - enlisted after a medical on the 7th in London at the Admiralty Recruiting Office and went direct to Rifle Depot in Winchester on the same day

10 Sep 1914 - posted to 9/RB (one of the K1 Kitchener 'New Army' volunteer battalions in 14th (Light) Division)

01 Oct 1914 - transferred to 12/RB (one of the K2 bns in 20th (Light) Division and formed initially by splitting out men from the K1 bns)

 

21 Jul 1915 - landed in France with 12/RB.  He was one of the 12/RB 'originals'.  12/RB were in 60 Brigade, 20th (Light) Division.

Winter 1915/1916 - several admissions to various field ambulances, dressing stations and casualty clearing stations (CCSs) for various minor medical ailments related to the conditions in the trenches.  Sing out if you want any of these 'decoded'

 

06 Jun 1916 - Wounded - gun shot wound in the right eye and forehead (this term could include wounding from artillery shrapnel or shell splinters)

At this time 20th (Light) Div were in the YPRES SALIENT in the POTIJZE sector.  During the day 12/RB came under heavy artillery bombardment and repelled some small scale infantry attacks.  A German mine was also detonated under the area held by No 1 Platoon [which was possibly Legg's unit].  There were some friendly fire artillery casualties to the machine gun team placed in the resulting crater.  12/RB had 51 ORs wounded.

07 Jun 1916 - admitted to 17 CCS, then evacuated via No 6 Ambulance Train

08 Jun 1916 - admitted No 1 Canadian General Hospital (GH), Etaples.  Transferred to No 26 GH on the 10th.

27 Jun 1916 - transferred to No 20 Infantry Base Depot (IBD), Etaples, for convalescence.  20 IBD was the Base Depot for the 20th (Light) Division.

07 Jul 1916 - rejoined 12/RB in the field.  12/RB were in billets in YPRES at this time.

 

15 to 19 Jul 1916 - in local Field Ambulances under treatment for scabies

 

24/25 Jul 1916 - 20th (Light) Division moved from the Ypres Salient to the Somme sector

 

13 Aug 1916 - Wounded - gun shot wound (see above re shells) to the face.  I think this is a second head wound, but it could be a flare up of the 06 Jun head wound.

At this time 12/RB were in the line opposite SERRE approximately at Trench Ref 57D.K.29.a and 29.c.  12/RB had a sap blown in with some sentries injured and later came under heavy artillery and trench mortar bombardment mid morning.  12/RB war diary states 1 killed, 1 wounded.  In mid afternoon Intelligence reached them of a possible German raid that night.  Suitable precautions were taken and at ~16:00hrs taped marker lines were sent across No Man's Land by German trench mortars in exactly the sector expected to be attacked.  Nothing further materialised and the night was unusually quiet!

14 Aug 1916 - admitted to 29 CCS, then evacuated via No 21 Ambulance Train

16 Aug 1916 - admitted No 25 General Hospital, Hardelot (about 5 miles south of Boulogne) with GSW and urticaria (which may be related to the scabies seen in the winter and July)

06 Sep 1916 - transferred to No 47 IBD at Harfleur for convalescence. 

10 Sep 1916 - rejoined 12/RB in the field

At this time 20th (Light) Div were out of the line following the intensive actions to capture GUILLEMONT (which Legg missed).  12/RB were in billets at CORBIE.

 

08 Sep 1916 - appointed Lance Corporal (unpaid)

 

07 Oct 1916 - reported Missing in Action from 12/RB

20th (Light) Div were in action on 07 Oct attacking RAINBOW TRENCH with 12/RB being in the first wave.  12/RB's start positions were to the East of GUEDECOURT either side of a sunken lane at Trench Map Ref 57C.N.28.c.  The attack began at 13:45hrs.  They took RAINBOW TRENCH with heavy casualties, approx 50%, but were able to continue to the second objective at MISTY TRENCH with fewer losses.

 

Here is the position of 60 Infantry Brigade on the morning of 08 Oct following the attack ...

 

 

09 Nov 1918 - officially presumed to have died on or since 07 Oct 1916

 

When he went missing in Oct 1916, he appears to have had the rank Acting Corporal.  This appears on one his service record forms, not just the 11 Sep 1920 letter to the Rifle Record Office from his father.

 

That same letter from his father lists him as ?1st Platoon, 'A' Company, 12/RB.

 

The reference to 'Winchester Rifles' on this letter and the 10 Nov 1920 letter from the Australian liaison officer is an error for The Rifle Brigade - there is no regiment called the Winchester Rifles in the British Army.

 

Mark

 

[stiletto_33853]

What a great picture.

The 20th Div battalions by and large had complete uniforms by February 1915, but not entirely i.e. Millerand's inspection of New Army troops on 22/1/15, as the French did not believe we were training new troops, led to a good few having their blue great coats taken from them before the inspection leading to a good few cases of pnuemonia. Pointless by and large as it was snowing so heavily a lot of the troops could not be seen and some of the rear battalions in the 14th Division were playing leap frog to keep warm

As Mark has said, men walking out used to use different bits of clothing from various people to look the part. Extended leaves were common place as the northern troops did not see why the guys from London could get to see their families, hence they would take off and return 5 days later.

 

12th Rifle Brigade, Oct 1916

5th October was the original date chosen for this operation. Once again the rain intervened and caused a postponement of two days. At 1.45p on the 7th the attack was due to begin. The assembly of the 12th battalion on the left of 60th Brigade, in the trenches ESE of Guedecourt was effected without difficulty during the previous night. "A" Company on the right "B" Company on the left were to lead the attack on Rainbow Trench, the enemy front line. The remainder of the battalion was to pass through and lie down in the open behind the barrage, ready to punch along the top of the ridge to Cloudy Trench, the 2nd objective, as soon as the guns lifted. But the enemy was on the alert. Perhaps he had obtained some clue to the project. At 11.30am one of his aeroplanes flew low over the assembly area and no fire was accurate enough to bring it down. It made a thorough reconnaissance and few back with it's findings.

At 1.20pm a heavy bombardment began of the front line, causing between 30 or 40 casualties in the Rifle Brigade alone. At the same time a barrage fell on the positions behind, to hamper the movement of our re-inforcements. The operation was sufficiently difficult without this unlooked for obstruction, for folds in the ground screened both Rainbow and Misty Trenches from direct observation and the task of wire cutting had been a serious problem. On the very morning of the attack patrols reported the wire still uncut, and the guns were turned on it afresh.

At 1.45pm the barrage came down and Riflemen went over. They were seen to be advancing apparently unscathed, as if carrying out a battle practice, until within a few yards of the enemy's wire - for their advance up to that point was defiladed by the contour of the ground. Suddenly the line was seen to check in confusion and surge this way and that, men dropping right and left. They had come against imperfectly cut wire and the enemy's machine guns. All 5 officers in the two leading companies went down, 4 killed and the 5th several wounded. The casualties among the men was severe. Now were the Oxs & Bucks Light Infantry in any better plight. The supporting companies came up from behind, the line steadied again and poured forward into Rainbow Trench. Most of the garrison hurriedly surrendered, many fleeing back to Cloudy Trench. Sone, including a machine gun team put up resistance and were killed.

The first objective was secured "C" and "D" Companies at once pushed forward to take up their position for the advance to the 2nd objective. At 2.05pm the barrage lifted and they charged Cloudy Trench. The enemy attempted a half hearted defence with bombs, but by 2.15pm it was all over. the incomplete trench had been captured, most of the garrison killed. There were a few prisoners, augmented later by some who were cowering under the dead at the bottom of the trench. A small number ran away, of whom they majority were shot down as they ran.

 

Andy

Edited 29 November , 2018 by stiletto_33853