12th Bn Rifle Brigade

[Drummergirl]

Hi Mark, Thank you for the information on Edward John Legg. My husband and I went over to the battlefields in July last year and to the Thiepval Memorial. Our guide took us to the Meteorological trenchers,as we gave him the information and with the help of a book, 148 Days on the Somme, he found the area Edward was fighting. With your information it has filled in so much more. I thank you. I would like to go back next year and find the other places you mentioned and visit them. Our extended family can now fill in so much more. Regards Pam.

[MBrockway]

Glad to have helped Pam - my own grandfather was one of the 'originals' in 12/KRRC in the same brigade as Cpl Legg.

 

Look forward to hearing the reports of your visit this summer later in the year.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Guest]

Hi there,

 

Does anyone have any information on the location/activity of the 12th Rifle Brigade on Sept 28, 2017.  That was the day my maternal great-grandfather, George Elder Johnstone, S/33627 was deemed missing/killed in action.  I have seen some references to suggest that the 12th was engaged at the Battle of Polygon Wood that day but nothing specific.  Any information would be appreciated.

 

 

[John Milner]

Hello Dave

 

From the History of the 20th (Light) Division, they were still in the Langemarck area.  The division was relieved during the last days of September and entrained for Bapaume.

 

John

Edited 28 January , 2020 by John Milner

[stiletto_33853]

60th Brigade, including 12th Rifle Brigade were in Sarawak Camp in the Proven area on the 28th having been relieved by 1st Kings Own Lancaster Regiment on the 27th. On the 28th they had parades, 7.00 to 7.30am went through an obstacle course and then were at the disposal of O.C Coys for the rest of the morning. Changing of clothes in the afternoon followed by a memorial service for the whole parade.

At 6pm they attended a rugger match between the 6th K.S.L.I. and the rest of the Brigade.

Your relations casualty report does not appear until November 1917, along with others where they appear to be tidying up the battalions missing, although he is recorded as wounded in action. No other names appear for the 28th.

 

Andy

Edited 27 January , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

the 61st Brigade were the last brigade to be relieved the following day by 4th Division not 14th who were in Waterloo Camp in Steenwerck at the time.

Edited 27 January , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

the 61st Brigade were the last brigade to be relieved the following day.

 

Find attached the 12th RB's diary for 27/28th

[Su Price]

Hello,

I have been looking at your thread with great interest. My daughter is doing WW1 as her topic (home schooling) at the moment and I'm trying to find more information on my great grandad who was Percy Rodwell 21811 of the 12th RB, he joined in Dec 1915 but disembarked on 19th sept 1915 I believe and died 7th Oct 1916 on the Somme I believe although he was noted as missing in action.  I think he may have been in the 2nd RB until he disembarked. My brother has done a lot of research and we have paperwork from the war office but we have no photo of him or information of his time from sept 1915 to the day he went missing and I wondered if you might be able to help at all? 

Thank you

Su

[MBrockway]

Just to confirm his correct details, here is the entry for S/21811 Rfn Percy L RODWELL on the Rifle Brigade British War & Victory Medal roll ...

 

[ WO329-1722, M101B23, p.2980]

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War gives ...

Name:	Percy Lewis Rodwell
Birth Place:	Tooting, Surrey
Residence:	Greenwich, Kent
Death Date:	7 Oct 1916
Death Place:	France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:	Woolwich, Kent
Rank:	Rifleman
Regiment:	Rifle Brigade
Battalion:	12th Battalion
Regimental Number:	S /21811
Type of Casualty:	Killed in action

 

 

Mark

[Vlaamse Verhalen]

Welcome to the forum, Su.

 

There are two fairly detailed threads that cover the action your great grandfather was killed taking part in, at the following:

 

The Battalion's own casualty records confirm that Percy was in 'A' company, whose objective for the initial attack was Rainbow Trench.

 

Percy was actually posted to the 12th Battalion on 15th September 1916, so he served for just over three weeks, sadly.

 

He was originally buried at the location attached.....E.S.E. of Guedecourt, then later exhumed & reburied quite some distance away, at Bienvillers.

 

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

Percy has a Service Record surviving - it makes for very sad reading.

 

If you have access to Ancestry, it begins here: Percy RODWELL Service Record on Ancestry (subscription required)

 

Here's a summary timeline for you:

 

12 Dec 1915 - enlisted, probably under the Derby or Group Scheme.  Aged 34 yrs.  He would have then returned home to await call up.

 

12 Jun 1916 - mobilised, i.e. called up for service

12 Jun 1916 - medical examination at Woolwich

16 Jun 1916 - posted to 5/RB, the training battalion at Sheerness

14 Sep 1916 - embarked for France
15 Sep 1916 - posted to 2/RB after landing at LE HAVRE and moving to the 47th Infantry Base Depot at HARFLEUR
29 Sep 1916 - re-posted to 12/RB.  Probably while he was still at the IBD, so he likely never actually joined 2/RB at the Front
29 Sep 1916 - joined 12/RB in the field and posted to 'A' Company
07 Oct 1916 - missing in action during the 20th (Light) Division attack on RAINBOW TRENCH on the Somme.  12/RB took very heavy losses on this day.

28 Feb 1917 - birth of fourth child, William Percy RODWELL

25 Jul 1917 - Acceptance of Death for Official Purposes.

 

31 Aug 1921 - Percy's campaign medals sent to widow Elizabeth
09 Dec 1921 - Elisabeth returns receipt for Percy's medals

06 Nov 1922 - two pieces of Percy's boot recovered & forwarded on to his widow Elizabeth
13 Dec 1922 - receipt from Elizabeth for above received at Rifle Record Office

 

Very poignant that he was killed after only 8 days at the Front and a mere three weeks in France.

 

Even more poignant that in November 1922, five years after his death, two pieces of Percy's boots were recovered and returned to Elizabeth, presumably your great grandmother.

 

 

There's also this short, barely legible note hand written by your GGmother on the back of some of the medal paperwork:

 

Such gems are precious.

 

 

 

There's loads of material here on the forum about the 20th (Light) Division attack on RAINBOW TRENCH.  Vlaamse's given you links to two of them and Andy and I have both posted a good bit on this action over the years.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

Here's a map showing the location on the night of 7/8 Oct 1916 of the units of 20th (Light) Division after the battle. 

 

I have added a box to show where Percy's remains were located.  He was identified through the pieces of boot having "R.B" and "21811" stamped in them and this alone allowed him to come in from the cold, no longer an Unknown British Soldier. 

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

[Su Price]

Thank you so much both of you for your time with this and so quickly too, this is really sad and wonderful to go through and I will have a look at it all in detail, hopefully there might be a photo or some leads with that. *added after reading through - well that was emotional, explaining to my children what he would have gone through, thank you for all your information.

I believe the remains of the boot are with a relative but I recall the medals may have been stolen a long time ago, I will check with my brother. My great grandmother was about 5 months pregnant when he died and had 3 little ones too. I believe when the fragments of boots arrived to her 4 years later she had remarried. 

One again thank you. We hope to visit his grave one day, my uncle went before he died.

Warm Wishes

Su

Edited 19 April , 2020 by Su Price

[stiletto_33853]

[Su Price]

Thankyou very much, I seem to remmeber my uncle commenting that he had nothing from family written on the gravestone whereas others may have had 'beloved brother' for example. Really poignant, thank you. Su

Edited 19 April , 2020 by Su Price

[stiletto_33853]

Casualty return in November 1916. Sue, there is a report in October 1916 diary concerning the action your relative went missing in. Some of the paperwork in his Army record state 16th Rifle Brigade for the missing man forms, clearly not the case.

 

Andy

Edited 19 April , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[Su Price]

So he would have been with 3 other rifleman from his company and a Sgt when he died? Would they have been in small group like this in waves with other riflebrigades? I'm presuming he would have known the other soldiers, Kirby, Cole, Paynter and Riley? If I'm reading all the information posted corrctly he died in the half an hour (1347-1415 )it took to take Rainbow ridge before the Germans surrendered?

[stiletto_33853]

A little piece from a book written from an underage Rifleman in "C" Company, 9 Platoon for his family which would cover his arrival and time at Harfleur.

[stiletto_33853]

Su,

Please find attached the Brigade report, looking through Division casualty reports, 70 men were listed as missing for this action. These are all courtesy of Ancestry.

[Su Price]

Thank you, really interesting especially the bit about the Derby conscripts with the shiny brass buttons as this looks like what he may have been mobilised through.

[MBrockway]

27 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Casualty return in November 1916. Sue, there is a report in October 1916 diary concerning the action your relative went missing in. Some of the paperwork in his Army record state 16th Rifle Brigade for the missing man forms, clearly not the case.

 

Andy

 

 

 

On an earlier page of this very topic there is information about S/1873 L/Cpl Edward J LEGG, ?1st Platoon, 'A' Company, 12/RB, who was also Missing in Action 07 Oct 1916 in the same attack on RAINBOW TRENCH.

 

Percy was also in 'A' Coy, so it is highly likely they would have been Pals.

 

S/1873 L/Cpl Edward John Legg

 

Aside from our comments on the non-standard uniform Legg is wearing in the photo, everything else Andy and I posted about L/Cpl Legg is also directly relevant to Percy.

 

The posts are here ...

Original request for info on L/Cpl Legg by Pam (Pal 'drummergirl') (Post #72)

 

Response #1 (Post #74)

 

Response #2 (Post #75)

 

You'll definitely find them interesting.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Su Price]

Thank you Mark, that has been very interresting to read, poignant to read about the confusion before the wire just before Percy must have been killed, but thankyou for the photo of his possible colleague too.

Su

[stiletto_33853]

3 hours ago, Su Price said:

Thank you, really interesting especially the bit about the Derby conscripts with the shiny brass buttons as this looks like what he may have been mobilised through.

Su,

Rifle Regiments tended to have Black buttons, one of the nick names for the Rifle Brigade was black buttoned ********. There was a great shortage of these buttons hence quite a few were sent out with Shiny brass General Service buttons.

I have often wondered, when remains were found as in the case of your relative, how many more could have been identified if they were wearing Rifle Brigade buttons as some way of at least identifying their regiment.

 

Andy 

Edited 19 April , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[Su Price]

That's a good point about the buttons being a source of identification, I would imagine that sadly most of the uniform would have gone by the time they found and identified him. Su 

[Sbd]

There is some amazing history on this forum.

 

I am wondering if anyone can tell me what might have happened to Daniel T Kay S/3492 (what does the S stand for?) after he was reported missing (presumed killed) on the 25th of September 1915 at Loos until the 29th May 1916 when he left Soltau for Murren, where he stayed until he died of pneumonia on the 5th of December 1918.

He received a gunshot wound to his upper right arm during the battle. I am hoping he would have been patched up by German medics at or on his way to Soltau?

 

I have a lot of information about Dan but would very much like to know what could have happened between these two dates.

 

His mother Ellen was able to join a party of wives and mothers who travelled to Switzerland to visit wounded soldiers. I have looked into this and really have just found the route the party might have taken, not how anyone would get on to a list to be able to go or how much it might have cost.

 

He signed up in 1914 in Greenwich. He joined the London Rifle Brigade C Company and left for France in July 1915.

We have no photos of Daniel or his medals.

 

Thank you!

Em ☺