Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Thank you Frogsmile. The use of the Regimental numbers in the ICRC files was discussed on the Manchester‘s forum some time ago and as usual the question I asked developed a bit further. This is part of the answer I received from the late Capt. Robert Bonner MBE which indicates that the numbers were still considered important enough to be used even after WW2.

“With the reduction in size of the British Army at the end of WWII instructions were received that the 2nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment was to be placed 'in token cadre form'.  It then became known that the 2nd Battalion had to either disband or amalgamate with the 1st Battalion.
The decision was taken to amalgamate, this being the best way in  which to preserve the traditions of both battalions and their predecessors, the old 63rd and 96th Regiments of Foot.   It was also resolved to add to the title of the new 1st Battalion the numerals 63rd/96th to signify the amalgamation.“

Charlie

Yes that kind of thing became common for those regiments where two numbered regiments came together in 1881.  Efforts were made to replicate that with later amalgamations too.  For example the Royal Regiment of Wales used post numerals 24th, 41st and 69th, and I recall that the various regiments in the East Anglian Brigade had previously done similar.  There were many others (OBLI = 43rd&52nd). 

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

Curious...I found a photograph of him, with other Royal Marines bandsmen, tucked into the Bermuda Rifles nominal roll. I think one or other of the Dunns was involved in the Bermuda Tattoos in the 1950s, and one of them was certainly an officer in the Bermuda Regiment (now Royal Bermuda Regiment), an amalgam of the Bermuda Militia Artillery and the Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps/Bermuda Rifles.

Nice spot - thanks for posting.

Not sure if this Dunn is related to Bandmaster William J Dunn and his son Lt.-Col. Sir Vivian Dunn.  Could be another son of William Dunn and brother to sir Vivian, but we should remember William's elder brother was Bandmaster of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers and could also have sired a line of prominent army musicians.  It's a fair bet they're related somehow though I'd say.

 

[6RRF]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The cloth titles were replaced between 1907 and 1908 with the gilding metal shoulder titles that are so synonymous with WW1.  The TF began wearing them from the outset of their establishment so the contracts from the manufacturers were quite large and must have caused them to prosper.

Bruce Bassett-Powell and I collaborated to create this series: http://www.uniformology.com/S-TITLES-00.html

 

That's a quite splendid series and deserves a wider circulation

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

That's a quite splendid series and deserves a wider circulation

Thank you for your generous comment. We hoped to continue with the other Arms and Services, but Covid got in the way once the cavalry were done.  We must try to revisit it when we can.

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for your generous comment. We hoped to continue with the other Arms and Services, but Covid got in the way once the cavalry were done.  We must try to revisit it when we can.

Please do continue with it - fascinating

[6RRF]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for your generous comment. We hoped to continue with the other Arms and Services, but Covid got in the way once the cavalry were done.  We must try to revisit it when we can.

I look forward to it. What impresses is the clarity

[mrfrank]

Last three East Yorkshire Regiment PCs. All similar individual images of young, new recruits at Beverley. All fortunately named to front or rear of the cards and details posted here for possible future searches.

L-R:

Pte Harry Edgington 8556

Served with 1st Battalion. 
Qualified as 1st Class Machine Gunner in August 1911 and proceeded with the MG section (under the command of Lt JA Markham) to Fermoy in May 1913 for MG training and divisional manoeuvres.

Date of Entry, France - 8th Sept 1914 and wounded ‘shell wound right shoulder’ in 1914.

Served with MGC with number 670102

Pte Matthew Wharton 8502

Joined 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India in March 1909. Member of ‘A’ Company. Still in India in September 1912 (passes Sanitation Class at Kailana). 
Date of entry, France - 15th January 1915. 

Killed in action serving with the 11th (Service) Battalion, EYR  on 27th March 1918 and commemorated on The Arras Memorial.

Pte Sidney Payne 8545

From Lewisham, London.

Served with 1st Battalion.

Qualified course ‘Mounted Infantry’ at Longmoor in February 1913. 
Date of entry, France - 8th September 1914.
Killed in action 1st July 1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

CWGC have him as being 23 years old at time of death, so if I’m correct that all these cards date to 1907 (and if CWGC have the right age), then Sidney Payne was - at most - only 15 when this image was taken. 

 

 

Edited 14 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Last three East Yorkshire Regiment PCs. All similar individual images of young, new recruits at Beverley. All fortunately named to front or rear of the cards and details posted here for possible future searches.

L-R:

Pte Harry Edgington 8556

Served with 1st Battalion. 
Qualified as 1st Class Machine Gunner in August 1911 and proceeded with the MG section (under the command of Lt JA Markham) to Fermoy in May 1913 for MG training and divisional manoeuvres.

Date of Entry, France - 8th Sept 1914 and wounded ‘shell wound right shoulder’ in 1914.

Served with MGC with number 670102

Pte Matthew Wharton 8502

Joined 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India in March 1909. Member of ‘A’ Company. Still in India in September 1912 (passes Sanitation Class at Kailana). 
Date of entry, France - 15th January 1915. 

Killed in action serving with the 11th (Service) Battalion, EYR  on 27th March 1918 and commemorated on The Arras Memorial.

Pte Sidney Payne 8545

From Lewisham, London.

Served with 1st Battalion.

Qualified course ‘Mounted Infantry’ at Longmoor in February 1913. 
Date of entry, France - 8th September 1914.
Killed in action 1st July 1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

CWGC have him as being 23 years old at time of death, so if I’m correct that all these cards date to 1907 (and if CWGC have the right age), then Sidney Payne was - at most - only 15 when this image was taken. 

 

 

Fantastic information Mike, thank you for laying it out.  Yet another soldier outlined there who fought all the way through the war from its very beginning only to be KIA in the 1918 German Spring Offensive.  I was a boy soldier myself and later trained boys of the Prince of Wales’s Division, so boy entrants are an aspect that’s always interested me and I collect photos of them, along with various other themes.  Examining your three photos I would say that their appearance indicates to me that they were probably all three boy entrants.

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

Fascinating research. Interesting that Wharton was still a private in 1918. If my memory serves me right the backdrop is Beverley barracks - long gone unfortunately its now a Morrisons.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, poona guard said:

Please do continue with it - fascinating

You might find another project we did together of interest (one of three before Covid halted things): http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html

Edited 14 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

On 14/03/2023 at 00:18, MBrockway said:

Nice spot - thanks for posting.

Not sure if this Dunn is related to Bandmaster William J Dunn and his son Lt.-Col. Sir Vivian Dunn.  Could be another son of William Dunn and brother to sir Vivian, but we should remember William's elder brother was Bandmaster of the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers and could also have sired a line of prominent army musicians.  It's a fair bet they're related somehow though I'd say.

 

I've not studied this family, but the similar name caught my eye. I also have not established whether the Director of Music of the Bermuda Regiment was related. He was Major Laurence Norman Dunn, born in Middlesex in 1902. The 1911 census shows his father, George Dunn, as a school bandmaster. He himself was shown as a military Bandmaster on the registration of his 1929 Middlesex marriage. His regiment is not shown, but in 1939 he belonged to 1st Battalion, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). In January, 1950, he was commissioned from the Cameronians into the Royal Engineers as a Lieutenant (Director of Music). He was promoted shortly thereafter to Captain, with seniority from 22nd November, 1949. He was promoted to Major in 1955, and placed on retired pay at the start of 1959, having already been selected as Director of Music for the bands of the Bermuda Militia Artillery and Bermuda Rifles (as the Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps had been renamed in 1949). When the two units amalgamated in 1965 to form the Bermuda Regiment, he remained Director of Music until retiring in 1969. He died in 2003.

Edited 15 March , 2023 by aodhdubh

[poona guard]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

You might find another project we did together of interest (one of three before Covid halted things): http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html

Thanks. Another excellent data feed for badges - love them, wish I could afford to buy them.

[GWF1967]

Royal Field Artillery Group. March 1917.

"Uncle Bertram" 34th Divisional Artillery.  - Photograph by Cox of Ripon.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Royal Field Artillery Group. March 1917.

"Uncle Bertram" 34th Divisional Artillery.  - Photograph by Cox of Ripon.

What a superb photo.  The best kind of glass plate imagery.  The diagonal scratch running ftom his mouth is unfortunate.  Thank you for sharing it.

NB.  Notice in particular how he’s had his SD jacket tailored to create a patrol collar and scalloped breast pocket flaps, typically for best walking out dress.  Unusually his lanyard has been crafted from split leather and then braided with a brass spring clip just visible on the end.

In the group photo it is mildly amusing how the Bombardier, seated far left front, has thrust both his arms forward (cramping the poor fellow next to him) so that both of his proudly earned stripes can be seen.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

Uncle Bertram" 34th Divisional Artillery.  - Photograph by Cox of Ripon.

Looks a bit better now

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Looks a bit better now

Excellent work sir!

[Gardenerbill]

What is the small chequered pattern badge on his left sleeve?

[GWF1967]

21 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

What is the small chequered pattern badge on his left sleeve?

The 34th Divisional insignia. 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

The 34th Divisional insignia. 

And subsequently the ‘Eastern Division’ in the Rhine Occupation Force’s British Sector/Zone.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Gents, after I posted my question I thought it might be a division patch.

[mrfrank]

On 14/03/2023 at 19:35, mrfrank said:

Last three East Yorkshire Regiment PCs. All similar individual images of young, new recruits at Beverley. All fortunately named to front or rear of the cards and details posted here for possible future searches.

L-R:

Pte Harry Edgington 8556

Served with 1st Battalion. 
Qualified as 1st Class Machine Gunner in August 1911 and proceeded with the MG section (under the command of Lt JA Markham) to Fermoy in May 1913 for MG training and divisional manoeuvres.

Date of Entry, France - 8th Sept 1914 and wounded ‘shell wound right shoulder’ in 1914.

Served with MGC with number 670102

Pte Matthew Wharton 8502

Joined 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India in March 1909. Member of ‘A’ Company. Still in India in September 1912 (passes Sanitation Class at Kailana). 
Date of entry, France - 15th January 1915. 

Killed in action serving with the 11th (Service) Battalion, EYR  on 27th March 1918 and commemorated on The Arras Memorial.

Pte Sidney Payne 8545

From Lewisham, London.

Served with 1st Battalion.

Qualified course ‘Mounted Infantry’ at Longmoor in February 1913. 
Date of entry, France - 8th September 1914.
Killed in action 1st July 1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

CWGC have him as being 23 years old at time of death, so if I’m correct that all these cards date to 1907 (and if CWGC have the right age), then Sidney Payne was - at most - only 15 when this image was taken. 

 

 

Seems CWGC have Pte Payne’s age at death wrong. He was born in Sep 1890 and so was 25 years old when he died and is more likely to be 17 at the time the PC image was taken.

Enlisted at Kingston upon Thames, Surrey. Married 4th August 1914 and had a daughter born in 1915. 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Seems CWGC have Pte Payne’s age at death wrong. He was born in Sep 1890 and so was 25 years old when he died and is more likely to be 17 at the time the PC image was taken.

Enlisted at Kingston upon Thames, Surrey. Married 4th August 1914 and had a daughter born in 1915. 

The centre and left of the three do not look 17 years old to me, the one at right possibly, at a stretch.  

[PRC]

On 14/03/2023 at 19:35, mrfrank said:

Pte Harry Edgington 8556

Served with 1st Battalion. 
Qualified as 1st Class Machine Gunner in August 1911 and proceeded with the MG section (under the command of Lt JA Markham) to Fermoy in May 1913 for MG training and divisional manoeuvres.

Date of Entry, France - 8th Sept 1914 and wounded ‘shell wound right shoulder’ in 1914.

Served with MGC with number 670102

Pte Matthew Wharton 8502

Joined 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India in March 1909. Member of ‘A’ Company. Still in India in September 1912 (passes Sanitation Class at Kailana). 
Date of entry, France - 15th January 1915. 

Killed in action serving with the 11th (Service) Battalion, EYR  on 27th March 1918 and commemorated on The Arras Memorial.

Pte Sidney Payne 8545

From Lewisham, London.

Served with 1st Battalion.

Qualified course ‘Mounted Infantry’ at Longmoor in February 1913. 
Date of entry, France - 8th September 1914.
Killed in action 1st July 1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

CWGC have him as being 23 years old at time of death, so if I’m correct that all these cards date to 1907 (and if CWGC have the right age), then Sidney Payne was - at most - only 15 when this image was taken. 

Private 8556 Harry Edgington, 1^st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment, is probably the 22 year old , born Highgate, Middlesex, who was recorded in a barracks return for the Wellington Lines, Aldershot on the 1911 Census of England & Wales return. He is on the last line of the first page. Note further up the same page on lines 13 & 14 are two Boy Soldiers aged 16 and 17.

·       According to the 1891 Census of England & Wales, parts of Highgate fell within the Pancras civil registration district. May be a co-incidence, but the birth of a Harry Edgington, mothers’ maiden name Davis, was registered in the Pancras District of London in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1891. So if it’s the same man it would appear he lied about his age to the Army when enlisting considering his age on the 1911 Census.

Private 8545 Sidney Payne, 1^st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment is on line 1 of page 10. Then aged 21, he is shown as born Aldershot rather than Lewisham. (There is a Private Walter Sidney Payne, aged 20 and born Lewisham, who was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales serving with “F” Company, 2^nd Battalion, The Welch Regiment).

Sidneys’ age of 21 may indeed be his Army age,  -  there is no obvious match on prior censuses. If the Army was the source of his age shown on the CWGC website then it should be at least 26.  So either he fessed up to the Army about his true age after the 1911 Census, or the age came from his wife, or there was a mistake in the paperwork dumped on the IWGC by the Army, or a clerical error at the IWGC end.

·       Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as born and resident Sutton, Surrey. He enlisted at Kingston-on-Thames.

·       On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 6 month old Sidney Payne, born Sutton, Surrey, who was recorded living at 7, Cottage, Robin Hood Street, Sutton. This was the household of parents John and Clara. Sidney has an older brother Philip, (4, born Sutton) and an elder sister Edith L. (8, born Aldershot) living at home. On the 1901 Census the family are recorded at 18, Sutton Grove, Carshalton, Surrey, with Sidney then shown as aged 10. Parents John and Clara were living at 11 Rectory Road, Sutton on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. They state they have had 7 children, of which 5 were then still alive – so a bit more work would be needed to see if their Sidney had died, or lied about his age slightly and ran off to the Army.

Private 8502 Matthew Wharton is on the return for the 2^nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India. (Line 23) Birthplace is given as West Hartlepool, County Durham. He was then aged 22.

·       The birth of a Matthew Wharton, mothers maiden name Handley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Hartlepool district in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1891. So again doesn’t quite tie up with his Army age on the 1911 Census.

·       Soldiers Died in the Great War records him and born and resident West Hartlepool, enlisted Beverley.

All images courtesy Genes Reunited.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Private 8556 Harry Edgington, 1^st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment, is probably the 22 year old , born Highgate, Middlesex, who was recorded in a barracks return for the Wellington Lines, Aldershot on the 1911 Census of England & Wales return. He is on the last line of the first page. Note further up the same page on lines 13 & 14 are two Boy Soldiers aged 16 and 17.

 

·       According to the 1891 Census of England & Wales, parts of Highgate fell within the Pancras civil registration district. May be a co-incidence, but the birth of a Harry Edgington, mothers’ maiden name Davis, was registered in the Pancras District of London in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1891. So if it’s the same man it would appear he lied about his age to the Army when enlisting considering his age on the 1911 Census.

Private 8545 Sidney Payne, 1^st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment is on line 1 of page 10. Then aged 21, he is shown as born Aldershot rather than Lewisham. (There is a Private Walter Sidney Payne, aged 20 and born Lewisham, who was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales serving with “F” Company, 2^nd Battalion, The Welch Regiment).

 

Sidneys’ age of 21 may indeed be his Army age,  -  there is no obvious match on prior censuses. If the Army was the source of his age shown on the CWGC website then it should be at least 26.  So either he fessed up to the Army about his true age after the 1911 Census, or the age came from his wife, or there was a mistake in the paperwork dumped on the IWGC by the Army, or a clerical error at the IWGC end.

 

·       Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as born and resident Sutton, Surrey. He enlisted at Kingston-on-Thames.

 

·       On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 6 month old Sidney Payne, born Sutton, Surrey, who was recorded living at 7, Cottage, Robin Hood Street, Sutton. This was the household of parents John and Clara. Sidney has an older brother Philip, (4, born Sutton) and an elder sister Edith L. (8, born Aldershot) living at home. On the 1901 Census the family are recorded at 18, Sutton Grove, Carshalton, Surrey, with Sidney then shown as aged 10. Parents John and Clara were living at 11 Rectory Road, Sutton on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. They state they have had 7 children, of which 5 were then still alive – so a bit more work would be needed to see if their Sidney had died, or lied about his age slightly and ran off to the Army.

 

Private 8502 Matthew Wharton is on the return for the 2^nd Battalion at Fyzabad, India. (Line 23) Birthplace is given as West Hartlepool, County Durham. He was then aged 22.

 

·       The birth of a Matthew Wharton, mothers maiden name Handley, was registered with the civil authorities in the Hartlepool district in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1891. So again doesn’t quite tie up with his Army age on the 1911 Census.

·       Soldiers Died in the Great War records him and born and resident West Hartlepool, enlisted Beverley.

All images courtesy Genes Reunited.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

I think that there were a lot of incidents of ‘false statements’ concerning age upon enlistment during that era and before it. What surprises me is that parents or guardians must have colluded**, as they were obliged to sign a form of permission for minors and that was apparently strictly observed.  I can only assume that a system along the lines of a statement that the birth certificate has been ‘lost’ must have been routinely accepted without too much demur by the army authorities.

**most boy entrants seem to have been either serving soldiers’ sons (as per the uppermost photo below), or orphans from local board and industrial schools.  The latter were especially common in the band, as music had often already been taught to a basic standard in these latter institutions.

NB.  In the case of soldiers’ sons, on one day they would be pupils in the battalion school in the status of dependants, and the next day attending the same school as boy entrants cramming for their initial Army Certificate of Education.  The transition was almost seamless.  ‘Sons of the regiment’ is not apocryphal.

Edited 18 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

Excellent pictures especially the Fusilier Boy Drummer on Minden day.