Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Thanks

Have just come across this reference to using bands in 117 Bde's Brigade Order No.4 of 27 Mar 1916, which is a movement order from Estaires to Bethune ...

That bands did actually play is confirmed in the 117 Bde war diary ...

Like you I remain sceptical however that a WO I Bandmaster went out and served in that role.

 

Re your thoughts on BMs staying in Blighty, I agree in general - Bandmaster Harold Dobinson, 4/KRRC, spent the war at the Royal Artillery Command Depot at Ripon, where he was attached to the RA band.  He was awarded the MSM in the 1919 Peace Gazette was his services entertaining the wounded.

This was not always the case though.  BM William Dunn, 2/KRRC, went out to front on 29 Nov 1914 as an ordinary rifleman, thereby earning a 1914-15 Star trio.  An article in the KRRC Chronicle puts it tersely:  "neither his Commanding Officer nor the Brigade Commander knew how to place a Bandmaster in the ranks" - so we're not the only ones puzzled by this conundrum!  Fortuitously a vacancy arose as Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Ammunition Column.  Dunn went on to win the MC for taking SAA up to the front line trenches under heavy fire (LG 23 Jun 1915).  In Mar 1915 he was severely injured by a fall from his horse during the Battle of Neuve Chapelle and evacuated back to the UK.  On his recovery he was placed in charge of the Band at the Rifle Depot.  In 1919 he rejoined 2/KRRC in the Rhine Army.  He had served in the 2nd Boer War with the 33rd Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regt (regiment of his father and his two elder brothers), where he was injured and invalided home.  Alongside his MC, he was also MiD in French's 05 Apr 1915 Despatch. 

 

Mark

 

That’s a fascinating story Mark and thank you for taking the time to research and lay it out.  What a fascinating character Band Master Dunn must have been.  With a father and brothers all having served with the DWR and his long service with regimental bands I will be surprised if he did not enlist as a Boy entrant. 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Spot on - he joined as a Boy at Cork.

He joined 2/KRRC as Bandmaster in 1906 at Bareilly after training at Kneller Hall and left in 1927, after service of twenty years fifty one weeks in the 60th, to take up the prestigious post of Director of Music to the Royal Horse Guards.

 

One of his brothers was Bandmaster to the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

His son, Lt.-Col. Sir Vivian Dunn, KCVO, OBE, FRSA, was also a major figure in the British music scene.  Studied at Royal Academy of Music, a founding member of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, then left civvy street for a commission in the Royal Marines as DOM of the RM Portsmouth Division, including responsibility for the RM Band on the Royal Yacht.  He became principal DOM of the Royal Marines in 1953 and accompanied HM the Queen and Prince Philip on the post-coronation Commonwealth Tour.

Vivian Dunn was also active in film music - he composed the theme to The Cockleshell Heroes (a loose dramatization of Blondie Hasler's Bordeaux raid) and can be seen here conducting the RM Band in the closing credits of Thunderbirds Are Go! (pasted as a treat for us children of the Sixties!)

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Spot on - he joined as a Boy at Cork.

He joined 2/KRRC as Bandmaster in 1906 at Bareilly after training at Kneller Hall and left in 1927, after service of twenty years fifty one weeks in the 60th, to take up the prestigious post of Director of Music to the Royal Horse Guards.

 

One of his brothers was Bandmaster to the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

His son, Lt.-Col. Sir Vivian Dunn, KCVO, OBE, FRSA, was also a major figure in the British music scene.  Studied at Royal Academy of Music, a founding member of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, then left civvy street for a commission in the Royal Marines as DOM of the RM Portsmouth Division, including responsibility for the RM Band on the Royal Yacht.  He became principal DOM of the Royal Marines in 1953 and accompanied HM the Queen and Prince Philip on the post-coronation Commonwealth Tour.

Vivian Dunn was also active in film music - he composed the theme to The Cockleshell Heroes (a loose dramatization of Blondie Hasler's Bordeaux raid) and can be seen here conducting the RM Band in the closing credits of Thunderbirds Are Go! (pasted as a treat for us children of the Sixties!)

 

 

 

Thanks again Mark, as so often seems to be the case a talent for music certainly ran in that family!

P.S. the music has indeed brought back some fond memories!

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Sorry - forgot to include this composite of Bandmaster Dunn, MC, in my last post ...

MC ribbon up on LHS, but no trio, so probably before early 1919.

[poona guard]

Thanks for all that info. Really interesting and clears up a question nicely.

 

 A photo I have looked at a lot and puzzled about. Is the cap badge the Sussex? I've done a partial colourise and the patch comes up blue.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Thanks for all that info. Really interesting and clears up a question nicely.

 

 A photo I have looked at a lot and puzzled about. Is the cap badge the Sussex? I've done a partial colourise and the patch comes up blue.

Which photo are you talking about Dave?

If you click on ‘Quote’ at bottom left of the post you’re referring to it will be clearer.  When the box then opens make sure you type only within the lowermost space and when you’re finished click on ‘Submit Reply’.

Edited 9 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I doubt you're talking about any of my Bandmaster Dunn photos, but just in case ...

Dunn is sporting the KRRC 'cherry' or corded boss cap badge.  This was worn by officers and WO I

Mark

[mrfrank]

Time for another 1907-era East Yorkshire Regiment PC of young recruits at Beverley. 
 

Surnames in pencil to rear have led to these identifications:

Standing L-R:

Pte John Holley 8644

Joined 2nd Bn at Fyzabad, India March 1909. 
B Company Class Marksman Feb 1912.

Died of wounds 2nd July 1916. Daours Communal Cemetery.

Pte Robert Button 8646

Born 18th Feb 1888.
Joined 2nd Bn, Fyzabad, India, March 1909. 
Date of Entry, France 15th Jan 1915.

Captured at Ypres. 
Died of influenza on 12th Nov 1918 aged 30.  Cologne Southern Cemetery. 
 

Pte Stephen Kerry 8650

Date of entry, France 15th Jan 1915. 
Wounded March 1915.

Later CQMS MGC 14253

Kneeling:

Pte Nicholas T Mitchell 8651
Date of Entry, France 8th Sep 1914 with 1st Bn. 
Qualified as 1st Class Signaller at Dore & Totley, May 1913.

Wounded 1918. 

 

Edited 13 March , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Time for another 1907-era East Yorkshire Regiment PC of young recruits at Beverley. 
 

Surnames in pencil to rear have led to these identifications:

Standing L-R:

Pte John Holley 8644

Pte Robert Button 8646

Pte Stephen Kerry 8650

Kneeling:

Pte Nicholas T Mitchell 8651
 

Yet another superb transitional period photo.  1903 bandolier equipment, woven worsted shoulder titles and one of the four with the older jacket having twisted cord shoulder straps.  Thank you for posting.

N.B.  How unlucky was Button to be KIA on 12th November 1918!

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

Cracking photo. I wonder when button was taken PoW? He probably died of influenza. When did they stop wearing the cloth titles?

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Cracking photo. I wonder when button was taken PoW? He probably died of influenza. When did they stop wearing the cloth titles?

The cloth titles were replaced between 1907 and 1908 with the gilding metal shoulder titles that are so synonymous with WW1.  The TF began wearing them from the outset of their establishment so the contracts from the manufacturers were quite large and must have caused them to prosper.

Bruce Bassett-Powell and I collaborated to create this series: http://www.uniformology.com/S-TITLES-00.html

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

I wonder what Mitchell is kneeling on?  Seems like there's something under his right knee, presumably to keep mud from the rather soggy-looking footpath off his uniform.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Buffnut453 said:

I wonder what Mitchell is kneeling on?  Seems like there's something under his right knee, presumably to keep mud from the rather soggy-looking footpath off his uniform.  

It looks like a cap peak, perhaps the headdress of the military photographer who took it. 

[poona guard]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The cloth titles were replaced between 1907 and 1908 with the gilding metal shoulder titles that are so synonymous with WW1.  The TF began wearing them from the outset of their establishment so the contracts from the manufacturers were quite large and must have caused them to prosper.

Bruce Bassett-Powell and I collaborated to create this series: http://www.uniformology.com/S-TITLES-00.html

Looks like an interesting site, thanks

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

[mrfrank]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Cracking photo. I wonder when button was taken PoW? He probably died of influenza. When did they stop wearing the cloth titles?

Had a look, but can’t seem to find anything for him in the Red Cross PoW records 

[charlie2]

15 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Had a look, but can’t seem to find anything for him in the Red Cross PoW records 

He has two index cards

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3580428/3/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4981887/3/2/

He died of flu at the hospital in Schloss Leyenburg in Vluyn (near Düsseldorf.

Charlie

[aodhdubh]

On 09/03/2023 at 16:24, MBrockway said:

Spot on - he joined as a Boy at Cork.

He joined 2/KRRC as Bandmaster in 1906 at Bareilly after training at Kneller Hall and left in 1927, after service of twenty years fifty one weeks in the 60th, to take up the prestigious post of Director of Music to the Royal Horse Guards.

 

One of his brothers was Bandmaster to the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

His son, Lt.-Col. Sir Vivian Dunn, KCVO, OBE, FRSA, was also a major figure in the British music scene.  Studied at Royal Academy of Music, a founding member of the BBC Symphony Orchestra, then left civvy street for a commission in the Royal Marines as DOM of the RM Portsmouth Division, including responsibility for the RM Band on the Royal Yacht.  He became principal DOM of the Royal Marines in 1953 and accompanied HM the Queen and Prince Philip on the post-coronation Commonwealth Tour.

Vivian Dunn was also active in film music - he composed the theme to The Cockleshell Heroes (a loose dramatization of Blondie Hasler's Bordeaux raid) and can be seen here conducting the RM Band in the closing credits of Thunderbirds Are Go! (pasted as a treat for us children of the Sixties!)

 

Curious...I found a photograph of him, with other Royal Marines bandsmen, tucked into the Bermuda Rifles nominal roll. I think one or other of the Dunns was involved in the Bermuda Tattoos in the 1950s, and one of them was certainly an officer in the Bermuda Regiment (now Royal Bermuda Regiment), an amalgam of the Bermuda Militia Artillery and the Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps/Bermuda Rifles.

[poona guard]

17 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

He has two index cards

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3580428/3/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4981887/3/2/

He died of flu at the hospital in Schloss Leyenburg in Vluyn (near Düsseldorf.

Charlie

Thanks, interesting that they called the EYR 15th Regiment on one card.

[charlie2]

13 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Thanks, interesting that they called the EYR 15th Regiment on one card.

The Regimental numbers are used quite often in the records from 1914/early 1915, this is the first one I have seen with such a late date - 18th March 1919 - very unusual.

Charlie

[mrfrank]

44 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

He has two index cards

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3580428/3/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4981887/3/2/

He died of flu at the hospital in Schloss Leyenburg in Vluyn (near Düsseldorf.

Charlie

Thanks for finding that Charlie as I’d completely missed them! 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

The Regimental numbers are used quite often in the records from 1914/early 1915, this is the first one I have seen with such a late date - 18th March 1919 - very unusual.

Charlie

Their own military culture was used to numbered regiments, and they were probably using intelligence information from an old British Army List (they also had data from General Grierson’s publication about the British Army printed in Germany when he was a liaison officer there around the time of the Boer War**).  Stations/Distribution of British Army units were still being listed under regimental numbers, gradually with the Territorial unit titles added in British newspapers even into the early 20th Century.

**later published in Britain as “Scarlet into Khaki”.

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, poona guard said:

Looks like an interesting site, thanks

 

Illustrations are on the succeeding pages to the link.

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks like a cap peak, perhaps the headdress of the military photographer who took it. 

Yes, I wondered if it might be a cap of some sort.  Guessing it wouldn't be in wearable nick after soaking in a muddy path for a few minutes.  

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Yes, I wondered if it might be a cap of some sort.  Guessing it wouldn't be in wearable nick after soaking in a muddy path for a few minutes.  

Seemingly probably there for just a minute while the photo was taken. 

[charlie2]

49 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

even into the early 20th Century.

Thank you Frogsmile. The use of the Regimental numbers in the ICRC files was discussed on the Manchester‘s forum some time ago and as usual the question I asked developed a bit further. This is part of the answer I received from the late Capt. Robert Bonner MBE which indicates that the numbers were still considered important enough to be used even after WW2.

“With the reduction in size of the British Army at the end of WWII instructions were received that the 2nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment was to be placed 'in token cadre form'.  It then became known that the 2nd Battalion had to either disband or amalgamate with the 1st Battalion.
The decision was taken to amalgamate, this being the best way in  which to preserve the traditions of both battalions and their predecessors, the old 63rd and 96th Regiments of Foot.   It was also resolved to add to the title of the new 1st Battalion the numerals 63rd/96th to signify the amalgamation.“

Charlie