Pat Atkins Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Thanks, that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Sgt. Pecy James Oxer Thomas. S4/197090. Army Service Corps. C1911. Law Clerk, 5 Petherton Road, Canonbury, London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) A.S.C. Group and driving instructor, with a Queen’s* man by the driver's door. Back right with cross X - (Charles) Leonard Freestone. M/378651. B. 1888, Great Easton, Uppingham, Rutland. D. 1973, Preston, Lancashire. edit. *Regimental badge correction. Edited 2 February , 2023 by GWF1967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 A.S.C. Drivers and instructor. Halley Truck. - Model B35 , built in Glasgow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 3 hours ago, GWF1967 said: A.S.C. Group and driving instructor, with a Buffs man by the driver's door. Back right with cross X - (Charles) Leonard Freestone. M/378651. B. 1888, Great Easton, Uppingham, Rutland. D. 1973, Preston, Lancashire. He's not Buffs, he's Queen's Regiment. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 2 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: Thanks for the correction Pete. Brain fog struck. I wrote Queen’s on my notes. I’ll edit my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 1 minute ago, GWF1967 said: Thanks for the correction Pete. Brain fog struck. I wrote Queen’s on my notes. I’ll edit my post. He could also be 22nd or 24th Londons. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 23 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: He could also be 22nd or 24th Londons. Pete. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 1 hour ago, GWF1967 said: A.S.C. Drivers and instructor. Halley Truck. - Model B35 , built in Glasgow. I see the civilian driving instructor is wearing the ASC cap badge, quite common among the LGOC men allocated to the task but I'm not sure if he is LGOC or not. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: I see the civilian driving instructor is wearing the ASC cap badge, quite common among the LGOC men allocated to the task but I'm not sure if he is LGOC or not. Pete. On a quick look through my cards, he’s the first one so badged. Edited 2 February , 2023 by GWF1967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 28 minutes ago, GWF1967 said: On a quick look through my cards, he’s the first one so badged. Going by the images in "British Military Trucks of World War One" by Tim Gosling it was not unusual for the LGOC instructors to wear ASC cap badges. I imagine quite a few of them were to wear them officially later on when serving with the omnibus units on the Western Front. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 4 February , 2023 Share Posted 4 February , 2023 Limber gunners 134 Battery RFA, artillery practice camp, Glen of Imaal, Co Wicklow 1904 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 February , 2023 Share Posted 4 February , 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, mrfrank said: Limber gunners 134 Battery RFA, artillery practice camp, Glen of Imaal, Co Wicklow 1904 What a great photo. It is full of transitional details. All the men have a prize battery badge of crossed gun surmounted by a crown. Several have the gun ‘Layers’ badge on their right upper arm, and one man second from right of the shot is a ‘1st prize’ gunner. The corporal adjacent at far right is a wheelwright and wearing canvas fatigue suit trousers. There are three types of contemporary headdress, some men are wearing Brodrick caps in their last year of common usage, two have obsolescent field service caps, and two are wearing battered slouch hats laid down for wear in the field only. These latter are a far cry from their original look with one side pinned up, and demonstrate from their appearance the poor quality that were issued to British soldiers. The felt was thin and soon got out of shape with extended wear, especially after getting repeatedly wet through and then dried out. All headgear is being worn with typical insouciance. Finally, most of the men have p1902 removable shoulder straps, but one has p1903 fixed cord on the service dress jackets, though all have the woven thread shoulder titles red letters on blue: R.F.A. - issued between 1902 and 1907. They are also wearing puttees that had only a couple of years before been authorised on the home establishment as a replacement for leather leggings. Thank you for once again posting such an interesting image. Edited 5 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 ……and one from a couple of years later. Drivers, 134 Battery RFA, in horse lines during artillery practice camp. Knockenarrigan, Co Wicklow, Sept 1906. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 (edited) On 05/02/2023 at 08:11, mrfrank said: ……and one from a couple of years later. Drivers, 134 Battery RFA, in horse lines during artillery practice camp. Knockenarrigan, Co Wicklow, Sept 1906. Another fantastic photo rich with detail. This time we see a battery in the field dressed typically for stables parade, a daily chore in a world dominated by care of the draught animals drawing the guns. For the first time I notice that most of the men seem to have ball type buttons associated with RHA. Again multiple types of headgear including Brodrick caps, field service caps, slouch hats (in better condition than before) and this time the new drab forage cap intended to replace the latter with service dress both, in the field, and in barracks lines. Several men appear to have temporarily removed the stiffeners from their caps so that the cap sits flat. As well as a range of issue shirts, one man is wearing an issue Gansey, a type of woollen pullover that became popular in cold nights on the South African veldt, and worn too by mounted infantry. Quite a number of the gunners are clearly still teenagers. Most of the SD jackets are this time of the p1903 type with twisted shoulder cords permanently fixed. What I particularly like is the wide range of what we now call stable belts holding up the high waisted trousers usual at that time. Issued braces contained no expensive rubber and so were restrictive for bending and moving shoulders, both essential movements for men grooming and mucking out. Ergo they either shrugged the braces off their shoulders or removed them entirely, relying instead on the belts. These latter often contained small pockets for loose change or other items and could be fastened in a variety of ways. Some of the belts were made from leather, but the thick canvas used under a horses girth became increasingly popular. In one case a soldier has fashioned a double snake clasp, an arrangement I’ve never seen before, and others more conventional buckles. These belts could often be made up by the collar makers and saddlers in the unit, and I suspect old buckles found their way into use too. At least one man has some badges fastened to his belt, demonstrating that this practice was underway well before WW1. I think it probably became de rigeur during the Boer War, when multiple units of Imperial and Colonial/Dominion troops were together in the field. NB. Notice in the front row one man with a stout wooden grooming brush and another in the row behind with a short rope halter. Some of the battery horses can be seen picketed and grazing at right rear beyond the hay bales. Like many fatigues in the field, Stables Parades were dirty, smelly and sweaty events, and a more relaxed dress was permitted during their undertakings. Quick smartening up was required for field day / marching order, etc. Amother cracking image, thank you for posting it. Edited 6 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: For the first time I notice that most of the men seem to have ball type buttons associated with RHA. 134 Battery Royal Field Artillery ..... RHA buttons ? 13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Again multiple types of headgear including Brodrick caps, field service caps, slouch hats One wonders what the Battery Sergeant Major made of this mixed form of dress appearing in a photograph. I am not sure this is a spontaneous snap of the guys at work. The straw bales and sacks have been moved into position, everyone is been put in position. And no doubt after a number of different attempts. All the indications the interminable actions following the thought by the CO / BC " lets's have a photograph of........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, ianjonesncl said: 134 Battery Royal Field Artillery ..... RHA buttons ? One wonders what the Battery Sergeant Major made of this mixed form of dress appearing in a photograph. I am not sure this is a spontaneous snap of the guys at work. The straw bales and sacks have been moved into position, everyone is been put in position. And no doubt after a number of different attempts. All the indications the interminable actions following the thought by the CO / BC " lets's have a photograph of........" Yes it does appear to have been organised I agree. As regards their tousled appearance, I think that we who experienced either, the national service, or post national service professional army, can get slightly the wrong idea of domesticity within an Army unit of those times, especially units wholly reliant on horses for movement. It was a smelly, dirty and sweaty world that they moved in. No steam irons or washing machines. Meals eaten in the barrack rooms. No shower blocks, but a bath perhaps once a week if lucky, or a bathing parade in the local river when in the field. Trousers might be slept on to try and flatten them out. Clothing was made of thick wool even down to underwear, with only a few items made of cotton. Laundering wasn’t carried out as frequently as we expect now and the men would have been smelled from a distance even when considered by contemporary standards to be clean. A mixture of tobacco and stale sweat (plus a bit of horse for good measure). There were no deodorants or antiperspirants. Few working men religiously brushed their teeth, and if they did it was usually with salt. No Colgate then. I realise that you will understand all this, but we rarely tend to think about it. In such circumstances, when carrying out hard physical work in the field (several times per day if including watering parade), I think that there was a culture demonstrated very well by the appearance of the men in the photo. A de facto ‘working dress’ in its truest sense. It was only really in marching order, guard order, and review order, that they would have been required to pull out all the stops and smarten themselves up. Edited 6 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 11 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said: One wonders what the Battery Sergeant Major made of this mixed form of dress appearing in a photograph. One can imagine the language used when viewing the resulting photograph he espied three men with hands in pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 1 minute ago, GWF1967 said: One can imagine the language used when viewing the resulting photograph he espied three men with hands in pockets I don’t think so at all. It wasn’t that kind of Army then. There was no stamping of feet and swinging arms shoulder high. Those are all relatively modern tropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 T Monmouthshire, no details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 2 hours ago, Jerry B said: T Monmouthshire, no details Is it just me, or is there a point upwards shallow triangle on his left upper arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 Those two photos of 134 Bty were really excellent. 11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: there a point upwards shallow triangle on his left upper arm Agreed. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 42 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Those two photos of 134 Bty were really excellent. Agreed. Charlie Yes they were fantastic. I always find mrfrank’s group photos excellent. Thanks for confirmation regarding triangle badge on Monmouth’s soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 The Monmouth Soldier is probably 1/2 Battalion the 29th Division ( red triangle)pioneer battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 February , 2023 Share Posted 5 February , 2023 2 minutes ago, mark holden said: The Monmouth Soldier is probably 1/2 Battalion the 29th Division ( red triangle)pioneer battalion. Thanks Mark, I was wondering if the shallow triangle referred to the famous 29th Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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