Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

It looks like "10th Batt. King's Royal Rifle Corps"

Thanks GWF, looking at the backdrop it seems possible that the photo was taken at Hamilton Camp on Salisbury Plain just along the Packway from Larkhill towards Shrewton.

Another, perhaps more likely possibility might be Blackdown given the trees.  I wonder if @MBrockwayhas seen the photo before.  See from LLT below:

10th (Service) Battalion KRRC
Formed at Winchester on 14 September 1914 as part of K2 and came under orders of 59th Brigade in 20th (Light) Division. Moved to Blackdown, going on in February 1915 to Witley and then in April to Hamilton Camp (Stonehenge).
21 July 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
5 February 1918 : disbanded at Dickebusch.

Edited 28 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I’ll see what I have - bands are more likely to get mentions in the sources.  I’ve not seen the photo before - many thanks for the alert Frogsmile. 

 

Is there any chance of higher resolution close ups of the bass drum to confirm the inscription and also of the officer and two warrant officers (i.e. the three wearing the cherry boss cap badge?

 

Edited 28 February , 2023 by MBrockway

[poona guard]

What type of back does the KRR photo have, anything on it?

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

Is there any chance of higher resolution close ups of the bass drum to confirm the inscription and also of the officer and two warrant officers (i.e. the three wearing the cherry boss cap badge?

 

I’m at work at present. I’ll try to get a higher resolution scan this evening. 

 

15 minutes ago, poona guard said:

What type of back does the KRR photo have, anything on it?

Plain postcard back with no other details. 

[MBrockway]

41 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

I’m at work at present. I’ll try to get a higher resolution scan this evening.

Much appreciated.  In their early stages many of the K2 battalions were seeded with Regulars - both officers from the Retired/Inactive List and recently retired WOs.  Better images might help ID these individuals.

Mark

[GWF1967]

9 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Much appreciated.  In their early stages many of the K2 battalions were seeded with Regulars - both officers from the Retired/Inactive List and recently retired WOs.  Better images might help ID these individuals.

Mark

Hi Mark, 

 I've scanned at 1200 dpi and added a crop. It looks like it could be 15th Batt on the scroll.

Edited 28 February , 2023 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

"No.4Co. A.S.C. North.nd Divn.l Train" 

T. Bell. Photographer, 19, Alexandra Terrace, Newcastle -on -Tyne.  

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

"No.4Co. A.S.C. North.nd Divn.l Train" 

T. Bell. Photographer, 19, Alexandra Terrace, Newcastle -on -Tyne.  

A super photo that gives a good representation of both the type of ‘medium draught’ animal that was common for drawing general service wagons, and the basic appearance of a divisional train drawn up in line abreast.  Thank you for posting it.

Edited 2 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

I agree with Frogsmile - a brillaint photo

[MBrockway]

On 28/02/2023 at 21:55, GWF1967 said:

Hi Mark, 

 I've scanned at 1200 dpi and added a crop. It looks like it could be 15th Batt on the scroll.

 

15/KRRC is a definite possibility, but for purposes of elimination could you take another look to see if it could be "1ST BATT" please?

15/KRRC was originally raised on 01 Nov 1914 as a Service battalion from details of the 6th (Special Reserve) Bn, KRRC, at Sheerness, Kent.  By this stage we're confident enlistment under Special Reserve terms had been suspended, so all these men were de facto duration of the war Kitchener New Army volunteers.  The battalion was part of the original K4 army before it was decided to convert that to provide replenishments to the first three New Armies.  15/KRRC had been in the original 92 Infantry Brigade in the original 31st Division.  On 10 Apr 1915 when the original K4 was broken up, the battalion became a Reserve unit.

As far as I am aware a band was only provided for on the peacetime establishment of a fighting battalion.  The 1914 War Establishments document states "on mobilization the band of a Line battalion is broken up; those bandsmen not required as stretcher bearers being distributed among the companies".  The same footnote continues "1 N.C.O. and 8 rank and file are trained in semaphore signalling", but it is not entirely clear if this refers specifically to the band. 

The wartime establishment provided for 16 stretcher bearers.  Including another possible 9 semaphore trained bandsmen makes 25.  Excluding the officer, the two warrant officers and the colour sergeant, there are 33 men in this photo, meaning at least 8 of these bandsmen would serve as riflemen if sent overseas.

The "Sergeant of the Band" was allocated to the details kept back at Base (i.e. the IBD, not the regimental Depot in the UK).  The buglers fared better as they were retained at a wartime strength of 4 per company, 16 across the battalion, presumably because of their value in the sounding of horns.

Based on the 1907 Special Army Order, which set them up, the establishments for the four Rifles reserve battalions do not appear to include a band, only bugles.

Despite all of the above, 15/KRRC definitely did have a band however! 

It was formed on 20 Jan 1915 when the battalion was based at Westcliff-on-Sea, close to Southend, Essex.  The majority of the bandsmen were from a civilian band that had enlisted as a body from Hednesford, Staffs. - then a coal mining community, so possibly a colliery silver band.  The music etc., was subscribed for by the battalion officers, NCOs and riflemen.

This band obtained many engagements at Southend, including at the Southend Corporation's bandstand on Sunday afternoons and at the Kursaal, while band concerts were given on Sunday mornings after Church Parade, which were greatly appreciated by the civilian population.

Here's a peacetime photo of the band of 2/KRRC performing at the Westcliff bandstand from my collection:

Several of the other New Army Service battalions also definitely formed bands - certainly while they were in Blighty training.

The fate of the 15/KRRC band is unclear.  As above, the battalion was converted to a Reserve unit on 10 Apr 1915.  It moved under canvas at Belhus Park Camp, Purfleet, Essex, on 20 May 1915 and then to hutments at South Camp, Seaford, Sussex, on 20 Sep 1915.  A year later it became part of the Training Reserve being absorbed across the battalions of the 4th TR Bde.

The original Adjutant and RSM were Captain Thomas Frederick Woombell and RSM R. Adams.  I'm still hunting for photos of these two men.  Woombell served in the UK for the duration, in 15/KRRC, then in the Training Reserve, still as Adjutant, then as Major, 2 i/c, 53rd (Young Soldier) Bn., Rifle Brigade, eventually going out to the Army of Occupation in the Rhineland.  He would have just turned 37 yrs old when the band was formed, so certainly plausible for our man.  He received the OBE for his service in Blighty during the war.  He died in Bournemouth in 1946.

I can't find campaign medals for RSM Adams, so it's likely he remained in Blighty for the war.

The chap immediately behind the bass drum is definitely a warrant officer as he is sporting the KRRC's cherry corded boss.  Bandmaster is the probability as Frogsmile has pointed out, but we are not seeing anything on his left cuff ...

In full dress the Bandmaster badge was only worn on the right cuff, but all the photos I have of KRRC bandmasters in Service Dress have the badge on both cuffs.  Here are some examples ...

 

Indeed the RSM next to him is definitely wearing his badges on both cuffs.  Apart from Schoolmaster, who IIRC would wear the Corps of Army Schoolmasters crown cap badge, all the WO appointments had some sort of cuff badge in SD.

My best guess is that our man here is indeed a Bandmaster, but he has not yet been able to put his rank insignia on.  It would make sense to appoint the leader of the absorbed civilian band as Bandmaster, particularly if there was a good deal of public band engagements where a Bandmaster would be essential.  Given the supply difficulties in 1915, it may have been hard to get hold of the Bandmaster badges quickly. 

RSM Adams was a pre-war Regular promoted from CSM in 7/KRRC and originally from 2/KRRC.  He wouldn't be much of an RSM if he were unable to acquire his rank badges .  The same would apply to any of the other warrant officer appointments.  A newly enlisted civvy appointed as Bandmaster would have less knowledge of how to get things to happen quickly in the Army machine!

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2023 by MBrockway
Forget to include Woombell's age in 1915

[GWF1967]

5 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

15/KRRC is a definite possibility, but for purposes of elimination could you take another look to see if it could be "1ST BATT" please?

 

I

  Mark

 

 

Hi Mark,

 Thanks for the information and images.

 I've had another look at the original card with a linen tester and am fairly confident there are two numbers, so not 1st Batt. I'm not 100%, but on a second look 15th seems the best fit.

 The "TT" appears under the drum tensioner? seen at the 5 o'clock position of the symbol, which appears to balance the letter spacing on the scroll with the two numbers opposite. 

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, MBrockway said:

15/KRRC is a definite possibility, but for purposes of elimination could you take another look to see if it could be "1ST BATT" please?

15/KRRC was originally raised on 01 Nov 1914 as a Service battalion from details of the 6th (Special Reserve) Bn, KRRC, at Sheerness, Kent.  By this stage we're confident enlistment under Special Reserve terms had been suspended, so all these men were de facto duration of the war Kitchener New Army volunteers.  The battalion was part of the original K4 army before it was decided to convert that to provide replenishments to the first three New Armies.  15/KRRC had been in the original 92 Infantry Brigade in the original 31st Division.  On 10 Apr 1915 when the original K4 was broken up, the battalion became a Reserve unit.

As far as I am aware a band was only provided for on the peacetime establishment of a fighting battalion.  The 1914 War Establishments document states "on mobilization the band of a Line battalion is broken up; those bandsmen not required as stretcher bearers being distributed among the companies".  The same footnote continues "1 N.C.O. and 8 rank and file are trained in semaphore signalling", but it is not entirely clear if this refers specifically to the band. 

The wartime establishment provided for 16 stretcher bearers.  Including another possible 9 semaphore trained bandsmen makes 25.  Excluding the officer, the two warrant officers and the colour sergeant, there are 33 men in this photo, meaning at least 8 of these bandsmen would serve as riflemen if sent overseas.

The "Sergeant of the Band" was allocated to the details kept back at Base (i.e. the IBD, not the regimental Depot in the UK).  The buglers fared better as they were retained at a wartime strength of 4 per company, 16 across the battalion, presumably because of their value in the sounding of horns.

Based on the 1907 Special Army Order, which set them up, the establishments for the four Rifles reserve battalions do not appear to include a band, only bugles.

Despite all of the above, 15/KRRC definitely did have a band however! 

It was formed on 20 Jan 1915 when the battalion was based at Westcliff-on-Sea, close to Southend, Essex.  The majority of the bandsmen were from a civilian band that had enlisted as a body from Hednesford, Staffs. - then a coal mining community, so possibly a colliery silver band.  The music etc., was subscribed for by the battalion officers, NCOs and riflemen.

This band obtained many engagements at Southend, including at the Southend Corporation's bandstand on Sunday afternoons and at the Kursaal, while band concerts were given on Sunday mornings after Church Parade, which were greatly appreciated by the civilian population.

Here's a peacetime photo of the band of 2/KRRC performing at the Westcliff bandstand from my collection:

Several of the other New Army Service battalions also definitely formed bands - certainly while they were in Blighty training.

The fate of the 15/KRRC band is unclear.  As above, the battalion was converted to a Reserve unit on 10 Apr 1915.  It moved under canvas at Belhus Park Camp, Purfleet, Essex, on 20 May 1915 and then to hutments at South Camp, Seaford, Sussex, on 20 Sep 1915.  A year later it became part of the Training Reserve being absorbed across the battalions of the 4th TR Bde.

The original Adjutant and RSM were Captain Thomas Frederick Woombell and RSM R. Adams.  I'm still hunting for photos of these two men.  Woombell served in the UK for the duration, in 15/KRRC, then in the Training Reserve, still as Adjutant, then as Major, 2 i/c, 53rd (Young Soldier) Bn., Rifle Brigade, eventually going out to the Army of Occupation in the Rhineland.  He would have just turned 37 yrs old when the band was formed, so certainly plausible for our man.  He received the OBE for his service in Blighty during the war.  He died in Bournemouth in 1946.

I can't find campaign medals for RSM Adams, so it's likely he remained in Blighty for the war.

The chap immediately behind the bass drum is definitely a warrant officer as he is sporting the KRRC's cherry corded boss.  Bandmaster is the probability as Frogsmile has pointed out, but we are not seeing anything on his left cuff ...

In full dress the Bandmaster badge was only worn on the right cuff, but all the photos I have of KRRC bandmasters in Service Dress have the badge on both cuffs.  Here are some examples ...

 

Indeed the RSM next to him is definitely wearing his badges on both cuffs.  Apart from Schoolmaster, who IIRC would wear the Corps of Army Schoolmasters crown cap badge, all the WO appointments had some sort of cuff badge in SD.

My best guess is that our man here is indeed a Bandmaster, but he has not yet been able to put his rank insignia on.  It would make sense to appoint the leader of the absorbed civilian band as Bandmaster, particularly if there was a good deal of public band engagements where a Bandmaster would be essential.  Given the supply difficulties in 1915, it may have been hard to get hold of the Bandmaster badges quickly. 

RSM Adams was a pre-war Regular promoted from CSM in 7/KRRC and originally from 2/KRRC.  He wouldn't be much of an RSM if he were unable to acquire his rank badges .  The same would apply to any of the other warrant officer appointments.  A newly enlisted civvy appointed as Bandmaster would have less knowledge of how to get things to happen quickly in the Army machine!

 

Mark

 

 

A brilliant and very interesting analysis Mark, thank you.  I had a strong feeling that you’d be interested in the photo.

I agree with your comments about the three figures with cord bosses (‘cherries’) and can confirm that a battalion Schoolmaster would have worn a plain crown on headdress.  I don’t think that war raised Service Battalions were established for that appointment.

Consequently the only warrant officers who could possibly be established within an infantry battalion of that type would have been the sergeant major of battalion (RSM after 1915) and the bandmaster (the latter only if specially established).

You raise an interesting point, in that as bands were dismantled and dispersed in war, what happened to that individual warrant officer**(?).  Also, if war raised Service Battalions were not formally established (war office funded) for bands how was the remuneration of a warrant officer bandmaster funded.

Along with musical instruments a full band would have been expensive for a war raised battalion to fund via subscription (albeit I suspect that the former might’ve been donated).

The story of how all these New Army bands were funded in the round is a story not yet illuminated as far as I know.

**for the regular battalions I believe he was sent to the regimental depot along with the band, drums and artisan establishments of Boys under 18,

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Stereoview Paul]

I thought this view of RFC with attitude was a great image to share. Am I correct in assuming that the right hand figure is an air cadet?

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Stereoview Paul said:

I thought this view of RFC with attitude was a great image to share. Am I correct in assuming that the right hand figure is an air cadet?

 

What a brilliant photo!  Yes the fellow with white cap band is an officer aspirant (trainee cadet).

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[poona guard]

What a cracking stereo photo with two artillery officers being instructed by a RFC corporal.

[GWF1967]

Jones, Geadon?, Lock, Woods. "The result of a Sunday afternoon promenade in Beirut Syria 12/10/17"  The chap whose name I'm having trouble making out has a shoulder title that is a capital letter "O".  Any suggestions for a name, or unit identification would be most welcome.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Jones, Geadon?, Lock, Woods. "The result of a Sunday afternoon promenade in Beirut Syria 12/10/17"  The chap whose name I'm having trouble making out has a shoulder title that is a capital letter "O".  Any suggestions for a name, or unit identification would be most welcome.

Well that O is certainly intriguing although it’s shape makes it look like 0 (zero).  I’ve never seen, nor heard of it before.  A stab in the dark might be Observer, or as a longer shot Ordnance, but that’s idle speculation.  Interestingly two are warrant officers first class and two are corporals.

Presumably they might have worked together, perhaps in an administrative function on the line of communication, as they do not look like combatant troops to me.  I think they might even be British WOs and NCOs attached to the British Indian Army via the unattached list. The shoulder title might be connected with that.

NB.  The hand on knee looks rather dubious and contrived.

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

..."The result of a Sunday afternoon promenade in Beirut Syria 12/10/17"...

I think the year is meant to be 1919 - the two men viewers right both have up the ribbon of the BWM that wasn't introduced until that year, whilst the man furthest right has up the ribbon for either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star as well (neither in wear that early).

[Gardenerbill]

The name could be Gibbons.

[GWF1967]

9 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

I think the year is meant to be 1919 - the two men viewers right both have up the ribbon of the BWM that wasn't introduced until that year, whilst the man furthest right has up the ribbon for either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star as well (neither in wear that early).

Thank you Andrew, I meant to ask what the ribbons were. 

 

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

The name could be Gibbons.

Thanks for the suggestion GB. Jones’ right boot appears to have squashed the lettering. 

[Pat Atkins]

On 04/03/2023 at 08:34, Gardenerbill said:

The name could be Gibbons.

Seconded, was my first thought.

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/03/2023 at 23:15, GWF1967 said:

Jones, Geadon?, Lock, Woods. "The result of a Sunday afternoon promenade in Beirut Syria 12/10/17"  The chap whose name I'm having trouble making out has a shoulder title that is a capital letter "O".  Any suggestions for a name, or unit identification would be most welcome.

I have looked in my recently received Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and sure enough a brass shoulder title “O” referred to an NCO or WO in the Ordnance Branch.  Among a list of ten titles it was the only one to comprise a single letter.  This indicates that the warrant officer is wearing the newly designated badge of rank and appointment for a Sub Conductor that was introduced as a revised policy at the end of the war.   Under the new regulation a full Conductor wore a coat of arms within a circular  laurel wreath.  The officer style shirt collar and tie also hints at the superior and quasi officer status of these highly specialised WOs (note the other WO has the more usual closed collar).  Overall it suggests this photo probably shows members of Indian Unattached List staff from a higher formation headquarters.  It’s quite rare to see so clearly the shoulder title concerned.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I have looked in my recently received Army Regulations India Vol VII (Dress) and sure enough a brass shoulder title “O” referred to an NCO or WO in the Ordnance Branch.  Among a list of ten titles it was the only one to comprise a single letter.  This indicates that the warrant officer is wearing the newly designated badge of rank and appointment for a Sub Conductor that was introduced as a revised policy at the end of the war.   Under the new regulation a full Conductor wore a coat of arms within a circular  laurel wreath.  The officer style shirt collar and tie also hints at the superior and quasi officer status of these highly specialised WOs (note the other WO has the more usual closed collar).  Overall it suggests this photo probably shows members of Indian Unattached List staff from a higher formation headquarters.  It’s quite rare to see so clearly the shoulder title concerned.

Great find Frogsmile.

  Many thanks. 

[poona guard]

Very interesting research.

[MBrockway]

On 03/03/2023 at 09:04, FROGSMILE said:

A brilliant and very interesting analysis Mark, thank you.  I had a strong feeling that you’d be interested in the photo.

<snip>

You raise an interesting point, in that as bands were dismantled and dispersed in war, what happened to that individual warrant officer**(?).  Also, if war raised Service Battalions were not formally established (war office funded) for bands how was the remuneration of a warrant officer bandmaster funded.

Along with musical instruments a full band would have been expensive for a war raised battalion to fund via subscription (albeit I suspect that the former might’ve been donated).

The story of how all these New Army bands were funded in the round is a story not yet illuminated as far as I know.

**for the regular battalions I believe he was sent to the regimental depot along with the band, drums and artisan establishments of Boys under 18,

Thanks

Have just come across this reference to using bands in 117 Bde's Brigade Order No.4 of 27 Mar 1916, which is a movement order from Estaires to Bethune ...

That bands did actually play is confirmed in the 117 Bde war diary ...

Like you I remain sceptical however that a WO I Bandmaster went out and served in that role.

 

Re your thoughts on BMs staying in Blighty, I agree in general - Bandmaster Harold Dobinson, 4/KRRC, spent the war at the Royal Artillery Command Depot at Ripon, where he was attached to the RA band.  He was awarded the MSM in the 1919 Peace Gazette for his services entertaining the wounded.

This was not always the case though.  BM William Dunn, 2/KRRC, went out to front on 29 Nov 1914 as an ordinary rifleman, thereby earning a 1914-15 Star trio.  An article in the KRRC Chronicle puts it tersely:  "neither his Commanding Officer nor the Brigade Commander knew how to place a Bandmaster in the ranks" - so we're not the only ones puzzled by this conundrum!  Fortuitously a vacancy arose as Commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade Ammunition Column.  Dunn went on to win the MC for taking SAA up to the front line trenches under heavy fire (LG 23 Jun 1915).  In Mar 1915 he was severely injured by a fall from his horse during the Battle of Neuve Chapelle and evacuated back to the UK.  On his recovery he was placed in charge of the Band at the Rifle Depot.  In 1919 he rejoined 2/KRRC in the Rhine Army.  He had served in the 2nd Boer War with the 33rd Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regt (regiment of his father and his two elder brothers), where he was injured and invalided home.  Alongside his MC, he was also MiD in French's 05 Apr 1915 Despatch. 

 

Mark

 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by MBrockway