Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Kath said:

This came in a collection of Belgaum & Salonica postcards. It was printed in Belgaum.

The man seated middle front row with sock marked, is described as “my dancing partner”. His wide belt has INDIA on it.

One pcd. is of RMS Royal George with note: “Embarked at Kantara, Egypt, Sat. Dec. 14th. 1918. Disembarked Dec. 19th. 1918 at Salonica. Other postcards are of BELGAUM & SALONICA. Some are addressed to daughter Doreen.

 

A super photograph Kath, with a couple of big but barely discernible clues to regimental ID. First and foremost is the cloth pagris flash on their Wolseley helmets, which appears to be a light shade with a dark central vertical line.  The second clue is that where the field service caps are being worn sideways and tipped back on the head by two men we can see the baseline of the cap badge.  This appears to be quite wide and so indicating a wide badge.  One of the wider badges is that of the Prince of Wales’s Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment), but that’s just my initial impression.  Another might be the Manchester Regiment with their wide coat of arms badge.  Comparison of regimental ribbons will help to give corroborating evidence.  I wonder if @Mike_Hcan help, I recall that he had a reference booklet from the Heraldry Society (Waring Pamphlet)?  The best reference work for this subject is The Wolseley Helmet in Pictures by Stuart Bates and Peter Sucieu.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[caladonia]

Hello there

Could these chaps be members of the 2nd Batt, Nofolk Regt? They wore a yellow rectangle patch with a thin black strip, very similar to that seen here.

Here s a crop from a photo of a soldier of this battalion, showing the patch.

Willaim

[Kath]

Cap Badge

Helmet 

Edited 22 October , 2022 by Kath

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Kath said:

Cap Badge

Helmet 

Brilliant Kath, you’ve cracked it.  I’d completely forgotten that the Norfolks wore a different and much larger cap badge back then, enclosing their iconic Britannia in a Laurel wreath.  The lengthy title scroll, when looked at from the bottom, gave the wide impression apparent in your photo.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Hello there

Could these chaps be members of the 2nd Batt, Nofolk Regt? They wore a yellow rectangle patch with a thin black strip, very similar to that seen here.

Here s a crop from a photo of a soldier of this battalion, showing the patch.

Willaim

Well done William that’s an excellent spot.  I think you have correctly identified the unit.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Kath]

Thank you both, very smart, posters!

Now to find out about the Royal George's trip from Kantara to Salonica..

Edited 22 October , 2022 by Kath

[FROGSMILE]

 

This photograph of a surviving Wolseley helmet from the Norfolk Regiment Museum.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Raster Scanning]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Another splendid photograph, thank you for sharing it.  The officers are flanked by the CSM and CQMS, who at that time were still wearing the same badge of rank (WOII introduced in July 1915).  There’s another Colour Sergeant present in the front row, perhaps the Orderly Room Clerk, but it’s impossible to know for sure.  Most interesting to me is the instructor from the School of Musketry seated over to the right.  Unfortunately his badge of rank is obscured but given his relative youthfulness he’s probably a Staff Sergeant Instructor (SSI).

Thanks very much.

His rank/name was S.M. Instructor, Butler. Here he is again in a named group photo.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

Thanks very much.

His rank/name was S.M. Instructor, Butler. Here he is again in a named group photo.

Thank you Raster, he is older than he looks and I remember seeing him in one of your earlier photos now.  I can just make out rank stripes on his upper arm and recall commenting previously that he’s fashioned his own cap insignia from a separate rank crown, and SAA crossed rifles badges.

[steve fuller]

On 16/10/2022 at 17:51, Raster Scanning said:

Here is one by Scovell

And here many of the same men are 6 months later, just before they went to France - http://bedfordregiment.org.uk/6thbn/6thbtnphotos2.html - less pride on their stripes on the whole and more relaxed in their own skin after months of basic was behind them. 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

And here many of the same men are 6 months later, just before they went to France - http://bedfordregiment.org.uk/6thbn/6thbtnphotos2.html - less pride on their stripes on the whole and more relaxed in their own skin after months of basic was behind them. 

 

 

Yes I agree.  That is most likely the CSM with the ball ended stick, and CQMS (rather typically) with pipe.

Edited 24 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ilkley remembers]

Bought this card which was advertised on the worlds most popular internet auction site as  West Yorkshire Regiment group, however think that the cap badge is actually Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Close ups show some interesting sleeve insignia ...Trumpeter and shoesmith/farrier? Any thoughts on N.hampton Yeo. and insignia.

 

The rear of the card shows list of names which I presume are the men on the front of the card. If anyone has a particular interest in them can post

 

Can't see any chevrons or stripes indicating war service so may be early in the war or even pre-war

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/10/2022 at 17:23, ilkley remembers said:

Bought this card which was advertised on the worlds most popular internet auction site as  West Yorkshire Regiment group, however think that the cap badge is actually Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Close ups show some interesting sleeve insignia ...Trumpeter and shoesmith/farrier? Any thoughts on N.hampton Yeo. and insignia.

 

The rear of the card shows list of names which I presume are the men on the front of the card. If anyone has a particular interest in them can post

 

Can't see any chevrons or stripes indicating war service so may be early in the war or even pre-war

 

Yes you’re bang on correct, they are Northamptonshire Yeomanry.  Trumpeters and farriers badges plus collar badges, as well as cap badge refer.

 

 

Edited 29 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ilkley remembers]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re bang on correct, they are Northamptonshire Yeomanry.  Trumpeters badge and collar badges as well as cap badge refer.

Thank you, always good to have confirmation The West Yorkshire horse is different but I suppose some may confuse it with the Northampton steed.

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, ilkley remembers said:

Thank you, always good to have confirmation The West Yorkshire horse is different but I suppose some may confuse it with the Northampton steed.

Yes most horse insignia is specifically related to the Royal House of Hanover, for whom the white horse was their primary device of recognition (and commonly worn as insignia), but I don’t know if that has any relationship to the horse favoured by the Northamptonshire Yeomanry.  The Regency period involved the rather corpulent Prince of Wales (and later King) touring around Britain and as he went from county to county, and crossing the borders between them, their respective Yeomanry frequently vied with each other to meet, pay homage, and provide him with a blinged up escort.  He often repaid the displays of devotion with special honours.  As a regiment the Northamptonshire Yeomanry’s final full dress uniform styled them as Dragoons (heavy cavalry). 

Edited 26 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ilkley remembers]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes most horse insignia is specifically related to the Royal House of Hanover, for which it was their primary device of recognition, b

In heraldry it was traditionally the symbol of Intellect, speed and virility. Not sure which of the Hanoverians monarchs would have fitted the bill for all three attributes.

 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, ilkley remembers said:

In heraldry it was traditionally the symbol of Intellect, speed and virility. Not sure which of the Hanoverians monarchs would have fitted the bill for all three attributes.

 

Well they get a bad press for a variety of misfortunes and misjudgements, but on a more favourable note they do include in their number the last British monarch to personally lead a British Army into battle.  Perhaps they can be better remembered for that.

Edited 26 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

The state of Lower-Saxony (Niedersachsen) in today´s FRG with its capital Hannover, the successor of the Prussian province of Hannover which was itself the successor (by and large) of the main body of land of the Kingdom of Hannover still has the white horse on red ground as its crest.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, GreyC said:

The state of Lower-Saxony (Niedersachsen) in today´s FRG with its capital Hannover, the successor of the Prussian province of Hannover which was itself the successor (by and large) of the main body of land of the Kingdom of Hannover still has the white horse on red ground as its crest.

GreyC

Thank you GreyC, I think I can remember seeing the crest as a road sign when crossing boundaries into that area.  I notice that the horse is used by Westphalia too.

Edited 27 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ilkley remembers]

I wonder if the white horse emblem was used by any regiments of the German Imperial Army during WW1?

[GreyC]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I notice that the horse is used by Westphalia too.

Both stem from Saxon origin. In that they are "cousins" to the horse featured in the crest of Kent. Do note: to distinguish Hannover and Westfalen crest: tail of Hannover horse down, Werstfalen up. I know of no regiment during WW1 that had a regimental crest eith reference to the white horse. WW2 different story.

GreyC

Edited 27 October , 2022 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GreyC said:

Both stem from Saxon origin. In that they are "cousins" to the horse featured in the crest of Kent. Do note: to distinguish Hannover and Westfalen crest: tail of Hannover horse down, Werstfalen up. I know of no regiment during WW1 that had a regimental crest eith reference to the white horse. WW2 different story.

GreyC

The Saxon connection is fascinating and epitomises the common link from the so-called Dark Ages. As well as the white horse connection with various Kent regiments, the white horse was also awarded to the King’s (Liverpool) Regiment, the West Yorkshire Regiment and the 3rd (King’s Own) Hussars.  All were the result of favour from the Hanoverian King’s of the U.K.

Edited 27 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Very interesting. The importance of horses and horsemanship in Hannover can be deduced from this: after the Prussians annexed the Kingdom of Hannover and made it a Prussian Province (in contrast to Bavaria or Saxony, who were treated more lenient by victorious Prussia after 1866 and kept their status as Kingdom), the Prussian incorporated the Hannoveranian units into their army. And although the Prussians had a famous tradition with horses like the Trakehner from East Prussia, the Prussian military riding institut was resituated from Schwedt/Oder to Hannover because of the enormous wealth of knowledge about horses and the numbers of good horses (Hannoveraner)available in that area. Under a different name (Kavallerie-Schule) the institut continued to train cavalry personnel after 1918 until 1935. In the 1936 Olympic games all six possible gold medals for riding were awarded to riders of that school.

GreyC

Edited 28 October , 2022 by GreyC

[Pat Atkins]

6 hours ago, GreyC said:

Both stem from Saxon origin. In that they are "cousins" to the horse featured in the crest of Kent. Do note: to distinguish Hannover and Westfalen crest: tail of Hannover horse down, Werstfalen up. I know of no regiment during WW1 that had a regimental crest eith reference to the white horse. WW2 different story.

GreyC

The relationship is a long-standing one! See, for example, Hengist (Old English hengest = stallion; Old High German hengst = stallion) and Horsa (OE hors = horse; OHG hros = horse), the brothers of the Anglo-Saxon foundation myth. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GreyC said:

Very interesting. The importance of horses and horsemanship in Hannover can be deduced from this: after the Prussians annexed the Kingdom of Hannover and made it a Prussian Province (in contrast to Bavaria or Saxony, who were treated more lenient by victorious Prussia after 1866 and kept their status as Kingdom), the Prussian incorporated the Hannoveranian units into their army. And although the Prussians had a famous tradition with horses like the Trakehner from East Prussia, the Prussian military riding institut was resituated from Schwedt/Oder to Hannover because of the enormous wealth of knowledge about horses and the numbers of good horses (Hannoveraner)available in that area. Under a different name (Kavallerie-Schule) the institut continued to train cavalry personell after 1918 until 1935. In the 1936 Olympic games all six possible gold medals for riding were awarded to riders of that school.

GreyC

Thank you for explaining the importance set on horsemanship by Hannover and Prussia, it’s of particular interest to me because I was based for 6-years in what had once been Britain’s cavalry school in Wiltshire, England.  It had been set up by a senior British cavalry officer, Baden-Powell (subsequently originator of the Boy Scout Movement) who felt that British cavalry had performed sub par in the 2nd Boer War (1899-1902). He also began the formal training of military Scouting (reconnaissance) skills for both cavalry and infantry.  By German standards the British school was minuscule, but it inspired and instilled a far greater degree of professionalism in sufficient time to prepare for WW1.

Interestingly this had all been an old lesson relearned, as the principal Victor of the 1815 battle at Waterloo (albeit with crucial support from Blucher), the Duke of Wellington, did not rate British cavalry, much preferring the professionally trained mounted arm of the King’s German Legion (Hanoverians) for duties of scouting, skirmishing and outposts.  He felt that British cavalry regiments were fixated on headlong (but undoubtedly gallant) charging, to the detriment of their other duties.  In essence the Hanoverians were considered by him the exemplars in the sometimes boring, but utterly essential disciplines of cavalry tactics and procedures.  It’s one of the fickle fates of fortune that almost exactly a century later, Hanoverian trained cavalry were for a time at least, in conflict with the now better trained than previously British cavalry, on the same fields of the European continent. 

Edited 27 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE