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trenchtrotter
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Another Territorial camp. 4th Wiltshire Regiment senior NCO's, with Royal Fusiliers Scout - Marksman. 1622710393_4thWilts.jpg.c8d215cd32d06c329f428737b41c4fd1.jpg

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On 17/09/2022 at 21:13, GWF1967 said:

Another Territorial camp. 4th Wiltshire Regiment senior NCO's, with Royal Fusiliers Scout - Marksman. 1622710393_4thWilts.jpg.c8d215cd32d06c329f428737b41c4fd1.jpg

An interesting photo for your collection.  The 4th Wiltshires were another of those TF battalions that styled itself as rifles in a nod to its lineage as a volunteer rifle corps, so hence the black buttons and cap badges/shoulder titles, etc. although in this case several men don’t appear to have obtained black buttons yet.

The Royal Fusilier scout instructor seems to be a regular who has probably been attached to conduct scout training for the battalion, as that subject gained in popularity and importance in the decade after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, where the importance of soldiers being able to read and use ground to their advantage became emphasised.  In essence attempting to inculcate lessons learned from the often challenging conflict with Boer farmers.

There are a few features that tell us that the photo dates from the years just before WW1.  One of the NCOs standing has an Imperial Service tablet above his breast pocket testifying that he’s committed himself to overseas service should it be required.  Sat adjacent to the scout instructor, on one side is the battalion’s regular permanent staff musketry instructor, who has two medal ribbons from South Africa, and on the other side is a Territorial sergeant with four efficiency stars on his right cuff testifying to attendance at 16-years worth of annual summer training camps.  Seated at far left is a company Colour Sergeant, who appears to be a recipient of the Volunteer Service Medal and typical of that time wears a large style crown above his three stripes that would later be reserved for wear only by WO2 on the lower cuff and replaced with a smaller version.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 17/09/2022 at 10:45, kenf48 said:

 Stephen Charles Horder - enlisted in the 1/5 Queen's 1910 and re-enlisted for one year in July 1914

I wonder if that is him in front of his section (?)

 

Looking at his photograph on a family tree on Ancestry, I'd say the man sitting right hand front, next to the regimental sign in picture 2

Horder. 5 Queens).jpg

S.C. Horder + Lucy Ida Claydenjpg (2).jpg

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3 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Looking at his photograph on a family tree on Ancestry, I'd say the man sitting right hand front, next to the regimental sign in picture 2

Horder. 5 Queens).jpg

S.C. Horder + Lucy Ida Claydenjpg (2).jpg

This reenactment group show how the 4th Queen’s full dress looked when they were the 1st Volunteer Battalion pre-1908 and makes clear the origin of the black insignia.

EAF81276-5B00-4C57-B79E-FBC75858245E.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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General Service Cap Badge, V. Lincs shoulder title.  Photograph by Welchman & Brown, Silver St. Gainsborough.

Lincs-Labour.jpg.366ca9fff68d3c06c4c7ca571248940e.jpg

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55 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

 

General Service Cap Badge, V. Lincs shoulder title.  Photograph by Welchman & Brown, Silver St. Gainsborough.

Lincs-Labour.jpg.366ca9fff68d3c06c4c7ca571248940e.jpg

He’s a member of the newly resurrected Volunteer Force (VF).  The VF were renamed from the Volunteer Training Corps (VTC) and initially issued with the GS cap badge when authorised and funded by the War Office (the VTC had technically been a civilian organisation).  Once the units had been accepted most subsequently adopted the cap insignia of the regular regiments to which they were aligned upon acceptance by the WO, but the Armistice was declared before this could be fully carried out and some units never received their new insignia.  Your photo clearly shows an auxiliary soldier of the Lincolnshire Volunteer Regiment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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The Manchester Territorials postcard is possible from 1908 and the move from Volunteer Battalions to Territorial Battalions, the cap badge on the soldier on the right of the postcard looks to be wearing the old Volunteer cap badge.

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1 hour ago, themonsstar said:

The Manchester Territorials postcard is possible from 1908 and the move from Volunteer Battalions to Territorial Battalions, the cap badge on the soldier on the right of the postcard looks to be wearing the old Volunteer cap badge.

Very well spotted. I agree.  The Manchester’s were not a popular regiment for high society, but they established a significant number of their battalions from young men in the city and its surrounds.  There was rather a lot of sneering that their cap badge at that time was almost identical to that of the Manchester Tramways Corporation, but nonetheless they formed 5 volunteer battalions whose headdress insignia were very similar apart from the number on the oval plate at the bottom.

4BB3350E-3E42-4D8B-A56E-F4F0491F9831.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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As it states. A company of men of the 2/4th Norfolk Regiment march past Sandy Town Hall, Bedfordshire, April 29th 1915. The 2/4th were a second line unit that did not serve abroad. Their little mascot, Roy Henry Edwin Kemp, is just five years old. Kemp emigrated to Australia in 1929 and served in the Royal Australian Air Force in WW2. His parents, Henry and Minnie Kemp had a Hairdresser and Tobacconist shop in The High Street, Sandy.

90555985_2622858457982354_4658535903944245248_n.jpg

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3 hours ago, Raster Scanning said:

A company of men of the 2/4th Norfolk Regiment march past Sandy Town Hall, Bedfordshire, April 29th 1915. The 2/4th were a second line unit that did not serve abroad.

Believe it reads No.5 Supernumerary Company - so likely made up of older men fit for home service only. The age side seems to be borne out by the faces on view. The few individuals I've had cause to research were either moved over to the Royal Defence Corps when that formed, or were released to Army Reserve W so they could resume their normal line of work.

Thanks for posting,
Peter

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

Believe it reads No.5 Supernumerary Company - so likely made up of older men fit for home service only. The age side seems to be borne out by the faces on view. The few individuals I've had cause to research were either moved over to the Royal Defence Corps when that formed, or were released to Army Reserve W so they could resume their normal line of work.

Thanks for posting,
Peter

Hi Peter.

My pleasure to post. I basically was a bit lazy and cut and pasted the caption from my "Military Bedfordshire" FB page. The captions on there are not so detailed, as many of the people who follow are not so interested in the details as they are here. I appreciate your additional comments.

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7468 Company Sergeant Major, Samuel Armstrong DCM (seated), was a regular in the army pre war . He served in the 1st, 8th , 7th and 2nd Battalions during WW1. His Distinguished Conduct Medal was announced in the New Years Honours 1917. He was from Thurleigh, Bedfordshire.

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27 minutes ago, Raster Scanning said:

7468 Company Sergeant Major, Samuel Armstrong DCM (seated), was a regular in the army pre war . He served in the 1st, 8th , 7th and 2nd Battalions during WW1. His Distinguished Conduct Medal was announced in the New Years Honours 1917. He was from Thurleigh, Bedfordshire.

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The photo shows him as a warrant officer class 1 (RSM) and the overseas service stripes and a medal ribbon suggests a photo taken 1917-1918.  He also, unusually for that time, wears regimental collar badges.  A fine photo, thank you for posting it.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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'A' Company 7th (S) Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment, Codford, prior to departure for France July 1915.

Back row 14th from left is Pte Christopher Cox  who went on to be awarded a VC in 1917. Sitting middle front (with cane) is Arthur E Percival who in WW2 became infamous for surrendering Singapore to the Japanese. Next to him (on left as we view) is 3/7996 CSM Albert Pearce

27788707_2055481501386722_251827133773225361_o.jpg

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9 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Royal Artillery Officer Cadets.

Driver, Royal Field Artillery. 

R.A. Officer Cadets (2).jpg

R.F.A Driver (2).jpg

The suit of white overalls is associated with the Royal Garrison Artillery and commonly seen on their personnel undergoing training even before the war.  Is there any clue to location on the back of the card?  The hutment behind suggests perhaps No2, or No3 Officer Cadet School at Bournemouth and Weymouth, respectively.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:Is there any clue to location on the back of the card? 

Unfortunately not. 

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30 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The younger man seated 2nd from right has a bronze cap badge. All the others in overalls have brass/ gilt. What does this tell us?

He’s wearing the correct OSDB badge for wear with officer pattern service dress.  I imagine he’s transferring over from another part of the RA and having to do a specific module of the RGA course.  A course add on.  The other cadets are still wearing OR cap badges.

NB.  The picture below shows RHA officer cadets and instructions staff.

15E394EE-F9E4-4F75-913F-11C5C67FC327.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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image.png.48f58abc733f03748be9b393279a3fbf.png

This (previously posted) card shows Royal Field Artillery Officer Cadets in training at Larkhill. The group includes 2/Lt. later A/Capt.  Josiah Dean M.C. - Commissioned 2/Lt. West Lancashire Brigade, R.F.A. 25/11/1916.  Served overseas with 55th W/Lancs Division, Jan.1917. Gassed, May + June 1917.  Military Cross awarded for actions in the defence of Givenchy, 9/4/1918 - (L.G. 16/9/1918)

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52 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

image.png.48f58abc733f03748be9b393279a3fbf.png

This (previously posted) card shows Royal Field Artillery Officer Cadets in training at Larkhill. The group includes 2/Lt. later A/Capt.  Josiah Dean M.C. - Commissioned 2/Lt. West Lancashire Brigade, R.F.A. 25/11/1916.  Served overseas with 55th W/Lancs Division, Jan.1917. Gassed, May + June 1917.  Military Cross awarded for actions in the defence of Givenchy, 9/4/1918 - (L.G. 16/9/1918)

I’ve always wondered if the white suits were used by other branches of the RA because all the images I’d seen had been of coastal, or other large garrison guns, so it’s interesting to see that image, thank you.  The white suits seem to have been common wear during both, gun drills and gun maintenance, which the officers had to undergo so that they had practical experience of what was required of their men.  Presumably they were to protect their service dress uniforms from gun oil, grease and other residues.  Perhaps the paucity of images outside of the RGA was just a coincidence.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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