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13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve always wondered if the white suits were used by other branches of the RA because all the images I’d seen had been of coastal, or other large garrison guns, so it’s interesting to see that image, thank you.  The white suits seem to have been common wear during both, gun drills and gun maintenance, which the officers had to undergo so that they had practical experience of what was required of their men.  Presumably they were to protect their service dress uniforms from gun oil, grease and other residues.  Perhaps the paucity of images outside of the RGA was just a coincidence.

Not shown are the shoes worn in coastal batteries to avoid sparks, though perhaps they had stopped wearing those by that point.

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5 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Not shown are the shoes worn in coastal batteries to avoid sparks, though perhaps they had stopped wearing those by that point.

Yes, I’ve read of them in several iterations of clothing regulations, but never seen any.  I imagine that they might be like bootees.  They were apparently made of heavy duty Fustian (later called moleskin), but were originally made from thick felted wool (like Norwegian slippers).  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 27/08/2022 at 18:45, ianjonesncl said:

The Bermuda Contingent RGA moved from France to England in April 1919, returning to Bermuda 11th July 1919.

They were therefore in the UK on Empire Day, May 24th 1919, pending repatriation.

A comparison of a BCRGA Officers / Sergeants photograph taken in the UK and the Repatriation Camp photograph would seem to show the BCRGA Sergeants.

I hope I have identified the men correctly. Sharper eyed Pals maybe able to confirm.

1346580992_BermudaContingentRGAResettlementCourse.jpg.c784decc0bc9618c18d01c3e024ac677.jpg

large.525537305_BCRGAOfficersSNCOs.jpeg.90f1e3aaecf0a27f1700a4c7460f9848.jpeg

I wrote something on the identities of those as shown on the ex-Bermuda Police Service website a year or so ago...I do not recall if that was in this forum or elsewhere...I'll dig it up and copy it here. I had also compared the faces to those in this photograph of Bermuda Militia Artillery warrant officers and sergeants before the war (dated 1909 or 1912, depending on the source). The only person I am reasonably certain is in all of these photographs is the one numbered 3 above, whom the police identified as Sergeant Sheridon H. Ryan (1060 Sergeant Sheridan Hilgrove Ryan), who looks to be standing, second from the right of frame of this photograph. I suspect he has not been identified correctly, or else the 1909-1912 date for this photograph is well off. Ryan's 9th of February, 1916, attestation as a temporary regular (with the rank of Gunner...appointed Lance-Bombadier, acting Bombadier, on 26th of December, 1916...a 9 May, 1918, record shows him as a Bombadier. An undated statement of service records "promoted Sergeant") shows a lengthy break in service as it records his previous service as 1900-1905. Possibly the photograph dates from that period, but he would not have been a sergeant when discharged in 1905. That requires either that the Sergeant in the 1909-1912 photograph is not the same person shown in the other two photographs, in which case the person in the other two photographs could be Ryan, or if it is the same person in all three photographs, then he must have been misidentified as Ryan.

 

On the subject of the photograph from the ex-Bermuda Police Service website (http://expobermuda.com/~bermyxpo/index.php/lia/903-the-brave-blue-line-) with the names captioned, it has been artificially coloured, of course. This reminds me of watching "Edwardian Britain in Colour", I think it was (https://www.channel5.com/show/edwardian-britain-in-colour), and being unable not to notice that khaki uniforms were consistently coloured green. I wondered how they could make such an error. More recently I realised they must have coloured each frame using software, and no human was involved in choosing the colour of a garment. I tried similar software on a free trial on the My Heritage website and it rarely applied the correct colour to British khaki serge or cotton khaki drills. The former usually made green or blue, and the latter usually a tie-dye of sand and red, and some blue. I have been slowly redoing all of the images I tried "manually" with Photoshop.

1909-12 BMA Sergeants' Mess-Haddog Rayner cr.jpg

Edited by aodhdubh
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1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

On the subject of the photograph from the ex-Bermuda Police Service website (http://expobermuda.com/~bermyxpo/index.php/lia/903-the-brave-blue-line-) with the names captioned, it has been artificially coloured, of course. This reminds me of watching "Edwardian Britain in Colour", I think it was (https://www.channel5.com/show/edwardian-britain-in-colour), and being unable not to notice that khaki uniforms were consistently coloured green. I wondered how they could make such an error. More recently I realised they must have coloured each frame using software, and no human was involved in choosing the colour of a garment. I tried similar software on a free trial on the My Heritage website and it rarely applied the correct colour to British khaki serge or cotton khaki drills. The former usually made green or blue, and the latter usually a tie-dye of sand and red, and some blue. I have been slowly redoing all of the images I tried "manually" with photoshop.

By example: Cyril Chesterfield Eston...I have only corrected the colour of the cloth...leather should be brown, including, I presume, the SAA bandolier; a pair of Gunners with a gerbil, I think...or perhaps a hamster; Major Thomas Melville Dill (OC of the contingent, who was on leave in Bermuda when the May, 1919, photographs were taken in Winchester); Bermuda Contingent RGA personnel in a Casualty Clearing Station in July, 1916 (the software made the fewest errors with this one, but some blue, still).

LBdr Cyril Chesterfield Eston BCRGAc.jpg

LBdr Cyril Chesterfield Eston BCRGAc FIXED.jpg

Gunners dog 002 c.jpg

Gunners dog 002 c FIXED.jpg

1918 ca Thomas Melville Dill - Major c.jpg

1918 ca Thomas Melville Dill - Major c FIXED.jpg

1916 July-BCRGA in medical CCS crcSatur.jpg

1916 July-BCRGA in medical CCS crcSaturFIX.jpg

Edited by aodhdubh
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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I’ve read of them in several iterations of clothing regulations, but never seen any.  I imagine that they might be like bootees.  They were apparently made of heavy duty Fustian (later called moleskin), but were originally made from thick felted wool (like Norwegian slippers).  

The museum in Fort St. Catherine's in Bermuda (third largest fort in Bermuda, after the HM Dockyard Keep and Fort Victoria, despite most online sources stating the largest) has a pair on display...I did not photograph them, unfortunately. No photographs online that I can find.

https://stgeofoundation.wixsite.com/stgeorgesfoundation/fort-st-catherine

https://www.cntraveler.com/activities/bermuda/bermuda/fort-st-catherine

Edited by aodhdubh
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3 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

The museum in Fort St. Catherine's in Bermuda (third largest fort in Bermuda, after the HM Dockyard Keep and Fort Victoria, despite most online sources stating the largest) has a pair on display...I did not photograph them, unfortunately. No photographs online that I can find.

https://stgeofoundation.wixsite.com/stgeorgesfoundation/fort-st-catherine

https://www.cntraveler.com/activities/bermuda/bermuda/fort-st-catherine

Very interesting to see the forts.  Perhaps unsurprisingly they are similar designs to the many Palmerston forts on the coastline here in Britain.  Are you aware of the website ‘Victorian Forts’?  If you ever manage to obtain a photo of Magazine shoes/slippers I’d be very grateful to see it.

 I thought you did a good job with colourising the photos of the BCRGA gunners, the only constructive comment I’d offer is to make the leather of the 02  bandolier worn by the individual bombardier more of an English Tan shade as it appears quite new.

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 24/09/2022 at 15:41, FROGSMILE said:

Very interesting to see the forts.  Perhaps unsurprisingly they are similar designs to the many Palmerston forts on the coastline here in Britain.  Are you aware of the website ‘Victorian Forts’?  If you ever manage to obtain a photo of Magazine shoes/slippers I’d be very grateful to see it.

 I thought you did a good job with colourising the photos of the BCRGA gunners, the only constructive comment I’d offer is to make the leather of the 02  bandolier worn by the individual bombardier more of an English Tan shade as it appears quite new.

 

I am familiar with that website, yes. It is very good, though the number of forts in Bermuda is quite large and rather a complex subject so most are not included in its list (most are marked here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Garrison#Military_Establishment_of_Bermuda ). Fort St. Catherine's is interesting due to its long use...or, the site's long use. It has been rebuilt a number of times since it was one of the first built circa 1612...the original version is depicted on this 1624 map, letter F: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Smith_1624_map_of_Bermuda_with_Forts_01.jpg

 

In 1612, of course, Bermuda (or the Somers Isles) was part of England and the union was a century away, there was no standing army, and coastal defences were manned by militia and volunteers. By the Civil War (during which Bermuda sided with the Crown...in Bermuda, curiously, the episcopalians and the presbyterians allied as Royalists against the independents...Roundheads), I think, the nine companies of militia were organised into two battalions...Bermudians were already switching from growing tobacco to shipbuilding and seafaring, but the Somers Isles Company did everything it could to block that. After 1784, when the Somers Isles  Company's Royal charter was revoked, Bermudians turned completely to shipbuilding and seafaring, which meant that the theoretically strong militia was always weak as much of the colony's manpower was always away at sea. An independent company was posted to Bermuda from 1701, but removed after France was defeated in the Seven Years' War leaving Britain with control of North America....it was actually replaced for a short period by other regular infantry, but this was withdrawn before the American War of Independence. Bermuda tended towards the rebellion, but being 640 miles off North Carolina, the rebels could not counter the Royal Navy's control of the surrounding ocean. Bermuda played interesting roles in the war on both sides, but US independence made Bermuda extremely important to the Royal Navy as the only British base left between Nova Scotia and Florida (before long, between Nova Scotia and the West Indies), hence its elevation to an Imperial fortress. As part of that, the regular garrison (re-established during the war and withdrawn after) was re-established in 1794/1795 along with the establishment of a permanent naval base. This included at first two or three companies of infantry (47th foot), but more interestingly also an invalid company of the Royal Artillery. Til that time, the coastal artillery had been maintained on an older pattern that had been replaced in the mother country...appointing Captains of Fort responsible for keeping batteries ready for war (often at their own expense), doubtless aided by volunteers with manpower topped up from the militia or army as required during wartime. The regular artillerymen appear to have taken responsible for the most important batteries at the East End, including St. Catherine's, watching over shipping channels, probably, but volunteers were still responsible for the numerous smaller batteries guarding beaches where landings might be made. After the Napoleonic Wars and American War of 1812, the militia and doubtless volunteer artillery were allowed to fade away and the regular garrison eventually expanded (after a period of post-war austerity by the British government during which many areas of defence were neglected). All Crown defence lands vested in the local government were transferred to the War Office, including all of the various batteries The most important were rebuilt and re-armed, but the less important, as an economy, were disarmed and converted to prepared positions to which guns could quickly be moved over the new Military Road (South Shore Road). A number of the older forts were rebuilt and rearmed again as technology improved artillery. Fort St. Catherine's was rebuilt with RMLs in the 1860s. Two other forts had been built on the hill behind in the 1840s...Fort Victoria and Fort Albert...and the older Gates fort to the East had been replaced with Building Bay Battery. At the turn of the Century, Building Bay Battery and Fort Victoria were re-armed with RBL guns. So was Fort Cunningham on Paget Island to the SE, and a new battery, St. David's Battery was built SE of that. St. Catherine's was excess to need with Fort Victoria above it, and it was also more exposed to return fire than the other forts. I have not learnt what use was made of it through the First World War. During the Second World War it was supposed to have been loaned to the US forces. It was disposed of along with the remaining War Department and Admiralty land in Bermuda in 1957 as post-war austerity and US control of the region under NATO resulted in the British Government reducing the dockyard to a base (in 1951) and removing the regular army component of the garrison (other than the Governor/C-in-C and ADC, and the  permanent staff to the territorial units). that's a long way to say Fort St. Catherine's was used as a battery from 1612 to circa 1900, and by the military from 1612 to 1957. Fort Victoria was considered more impressive, but its keep was destroyed to make way for a hotel swimming pool.

 

If I get ahold of a photograph of the battery shoes, I'll definitely share it.

 

Thanks for the advice on the bandolier...I've been finding them troubling as I've not been certain the shade of brown they should be. They appear in a number of the photographs I ran through the colouring software and must fix...Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps was still wearing them at the start of the war...I think this photograph is dated 1915.

 

 

P1160267 col.jpg

P1160267 col FIXED Khaki.jpg

Edited by aodhdubh
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5 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

I am familiar with that website, yes. It is very good, though the number of forts in Bermuda is quite large and rather a complex subject so most are not included in its list (most are marked here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Garrison#Military_Establishment_of_Bermuda ). Fort St. Catherine's is interesting due to its long use...or, the site's long use. It has been rebuilt a number of times since it was one of the first built circa 1612...the original version is depicted on this 1624 map, letter F: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Smith_1624_map_of_Bermuda_with_Forts_01.jpg

 

In 1612, of course, Bermuda (or the Somers Isles) was part of England and the union was a century away, there was no standing army, and coastal defences were manned by militia and volunteers. By the Civil War (during which Bermuda sided with the Crown...in Bermuda, curiously, the episcopalians and the presbyterians allied as Royalists against the independents...Roundheads), I think, the nine companies of militia were organised into two battalions...Bermudians were already switching from growing tobacco to shipbuilding and seafaring, but the Somers Isles Company did everything it could to block that. After 1784, when the Somers Isles  Company's Royal charter was revoked, Bermudians turned completely to shipbuilding and seafaring, which meant that the theoretically strong militia was always weak as much of the colony's manpower was always away at sea. An independent company was posted to Bermuda from 1701, but removed after France was defeated in the Seven Years' War leaving Britain with control of North America....it was actually replaced for a short period by other regular infantry, but this was withdrawn before the American War of Independence. Bermuda tended towards the rebellion, but being 640 miles off North Carolina, the rebels could not counter the Royal Navy's control of the surrounding ocean. Bermuda played interesting roles in the war on both sides, but US independence made Bermuda extremely important to the Royal Navy as the only British base left between Nova Scotia and Florida (before long, between Nova Scotia and the West Indies), hence its elevation to an Imperial fortress. As part of that, the regular garrison (re-established during the war and withdrawn after) was re-established in 1794/1795 along with the establishment of a permanent naval base. This included at first two or three companies of infantry (47th foot), but more interestingly also an invalid company of the Royal Artillery. Til that time, the coastal artillery had been maintained on an older pattern that had been replaced in the mother country...appointing Captains of Fort responsible for keeping batteries ready for war (often at their own expense), doubtless aided by volunteers with manpower topped up from the militia or army as required during wartime. The regular artillerymen appear to have taken responsible for the most important batteries at the East End, including St. Catherine's, watching over shipping channels, probably, but volunteers were still responsible for the numerous smaller batteries guarding beaches where landings might be made. After the Napoleonic Wars and American War of 1812, the militia and doubtless volunteer artillery were allowed to fade away and the regular garrison eventually expanded (after a period of post-war austerity by the British government during which many areas of defence were neglected). All Crown defence lands vested in the local government were transferred to the War Office, including all of the various batteries The most important were rebuilt and re-armed, but the less important, as an economy, were disarmed and converted to prepared positions to which guns could quickly be moved over the new Military Road (South Shore Road). A number of the older forts were rebuilt and rearmed again as technology improved artillery. Fort St. Catherine's was rebuilt with RMLs in the 1860s. Two other forts had been built on the hill behind in the 1840s...Fort Victoria and Fort Albert...and the older Gates fort to the East had been replaced with Building Bay Battery. At the turn of the Century, Building Bay Battery and Fort Victoria were re-armed with RBL guns. So was Fort Cunningham on Paget Island to the SE, and a new battery, St. David's Battery was built SE of that. St. Catherine's was excess to need with Fort Victoria above it, and it was also more exposed to return fire than the other forts. I have not learnt what use was made of it through the First World War. During the Second World War it was supposed to have been loaned to the US forces. It was disposed of along with the remaining War Department and Admiralty land in Bermuda in 1957 as post-war austerity and US control of the region under NATO resulted in the British Government reducing the dockyard to a base (in 1951) and removing the regular army component of the garrison (other than the Governor/C-in-C and ADC, and the  permanent staff to the territorial units). that's a long way to say Fort St. Catherine's was used as a battery from 1612 to circa 1900, and by the military from 1612 to 1957. Fort Victoria was considered more impressive, but its keep was destroyed to make way for a hotel swimming pool.

 

If I get ahold of a photograph of the battery shoes, I'll definitely share it.

 

Thanks for the advice on the bandolier...I've been finding them troubling as I've not been certain the shade of brown they should be. They appear in a number of the photographs I ran through the colouring software and must fix...Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps was still wearing them at the start of the war...I think this photograph is dated 1915.

P1160267 col FIXED slate.jpg

P1160267 col FIXED Khaki.jpg

There were variations of course depending on manufacturer, but in general they went a lot darker once being waxed.  When new they were quite often a lighter shade.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, themonsstar said:

21st Lance's 

IMG_20221002_170019818_HDR.jpg

I think on this occasion it’s 17th (Duke of Cambridge’s Own) Lancers, as it appears to be a photo from before 1922 (?) when the white faced 17th amalgamated with the 21st (Empress of India’s), which had favoured French grey facings.  The enclosed colour image depicts a much earlier period, but the basic uniform details were similar.  It’s a super photograph, thank you for posting it.  The 17th were in India from 1905 until the outbreak of war in 1914.  I’d assess the photo to be from around 1910+/_

8C9DA061-1619-465B-A7D5-8009B8FC4F3A.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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"Palestine - 984 MT ASC  422nd Siege Battery"

Formed in Palestine, August 917, as the ammunition column for 422nd Siege Battery.  -  LLT.

984 Coy.A.S.C..jpg

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1st Welsh RAMC T, sent by Private James Smethurst, 6/8/1911, includes some boxers.  Address to Mrs Smethurst whom he calls Dear Friend

welsh ramc f wm.jpg

welsh ramc r.jpeg

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they appear to be wearing the T RAMC WELSH shoulder titles after becoming part of the Territorial force

t ramc welsh f.JPG

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Super clear photo Jerry, thank you for posting it.  A typical carefree, prewar scene, of an annual summer training camp for the TF which qualified each man attending for his cash bounty.  The location is [I think] Llandeloy Camp, near what is today RAF Brawdy.  I can’t help wondering what happened to those men in the next 5-years, including what seems to be a local lad kneeling at far left.  

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A question - out of pure curiosity.

There are so many individual soldier photos that it seems unlikely that this was not an organised process.

Do we actually know if groups of soldiers were marched to a local studio - or did a photographer come to them? Was this purely an informal regiment arrangement or was there an official requirement to take such a photo?

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14 hours ago, Stereoview Paul said:

A question - out of pure curiosity.

There are so many individual soldier photos that it seems unlikely that this was not an organised process.

Do we actually know if groups of soldiers were marched to a local studio - or did a photographer come to them? Was this purely an informal regiment arrangement or was there an official requirement to take such a photo?

No official requirement, but it became increasingly popular for auxiliary forces units, who it should be remembered were civilians who undertook military training as a pastime and so liked to have their activity in uniform recorded.  Before the Territorial Force was created in 1908, the auxiliary forces were divided in three, the Militia (older than the regular army), the Yeomanry (auxiliary cavalry) and the Volunteer Force (comprised of widely dispersed local units of rifle volunteers).  All of these institutions had an annual summer training camp in common.

For the mainly working class men these annual camps were part training, and part sport and walking-out of camp in the evenings.  They were the closest that the men had to an annual holiday where they could have fun in a masculine environment.  Part of the routine was often to have a formal unit photograph taken, as it was usually the only time in a year when all the unit were present together.

In the earlier years these formal photographs were relatively expensive and so less likely that each man had his own print. As the technology developed the unit price dropped and as well as the more formal photos, it became profitable for individual photographers to with permission roam the camp and take photos of impromptu scenes and sell the prints to the soldiers featuring in them.

This routine was a potentially lucrative opportunity and individual photographic studios developed relationships with units and attended camp annually.  By 1914 the arrangement was well developed and by giving permission and access the more formal photos were often provided at a discount in return for the opportunity to free range among the soldiers when they were off duty, or undergoing less formal activity. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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@FROGSMILE and that situation existed well into the 1980’s, with Squad and individual photographs being taken by local photographers for commercial gain. All has changed with the introduction of the photographic capability of mobile phones!

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17 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

@FROGSMILE and that situation existed well into the 1980’s, with Squad and individual photographs being taken by local photographers for commercial gain. All has changed with the introduction of the photographic capability of mobile phones!

Yes I can imagine that it has now.  The end of an era.  Digital technology seems to have changed so much and will no doubt continue to do so I guess.

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53 minutes ago, Kath said:

Presumably taken at Aldershot  after enlistment- I'd like to know which Photographer.

Hare, Polglase, & Stephens.

Three photos taken by the same studio:

https://www.royaledward.net/helston-men-on-the-hmt-royal-edward/leaving-all-that-was-dear/

Unfortunately there doesn’t appear to be a studio trademark printed on the photo Kath.  They were usually on the bottom left, or right, or on the rear sometimes.  They were not always applied though, it wasn’t mandatory.

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Nothing on the back. You'd think he'd want to advertise - but not necessary with all the prospective custommers!

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8 minutes ago, Kath said:

Nothing on the back. You'd think he'd want to advertise - but not necessary with all the prospective custommers!

Yes I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Kath.  The demand became prolific and a lot more photographic studios set up to meet that.  Especially given conscription and the largest army that Britain has ever put into the field.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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