21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[MBrockway]

On 07/04/2017 at 02:14, MBrockway said:

 

25 Jul 1893 - enlisted at Leicester, aged 18yrs 1 month. Terms - Short Service: 7 years with Colours; 5 in Reserve
as Pte, 12943, Leicestershire Regiment
..
10 Oct 1895 - transferred as Pte. to 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys)
..

06 Nov 1899 - disembarked in South Africa for 2nd Boer War service

..

12 Aug 1905 - enlisted at Edinburgh for Sec D Army Reserve for 4 years

Attested as Service Number 4198 in 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys)
[I'd say there's a fair chance he actually got this 2/Dragoons number when he transferred in 1895]

 

 

Indeed, re that last point, Woodward appears as 4198 in the Royal Scots Greys QSA and KSA medal rolls.

[Granite-Yorkie]

Thanks Mark, this is very interesting  I've done a bit more digging, he was a bit of a naughty boy as it happens- he was actually Alec Leonard Woodward (thanks FreeBMD), born in the 3rd Quarter of 1878 in Coventry, and thus was only 15 when he enlisted (quite common, I know).  His death does not appear, so maybe he stayed in Scotland after WW1? I know that Gerald Dennis referred to him as an "Edinburgh Scot", which may suggest he was living in Edinburgh in 1914.

Edited 11 April , 2017 by Granite-Yorkie
Typo

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, Granite-Yorkie said:

Thanks Mark, this is very interesting  I've done a bit more digging, he was a bit of a naughty boy as it happens- he was actually Alec Leonard Woodward (thanks FreeBMD), born in the 3rd Quarter of 1878 in Coventry, and thus was only 15 when he enlisted (quite common, I know).  His death does not appear, so maybe he stayed in Scotland after WW1? I know that Gerald Dennis referred to him as an "Edinburgh Scot", which may suggest he was living in Edinburgh in 1914.

At least in 1917 he then got out from the Front 3 years sooner. 

 

I have seen several Time Expired men in the KRRC kept in the regiment due to the MSA, but posted to Home Service.  Suggests the regiment recognised they had done their bit.

 

Wife's address in his paperwork is in Edinburgh, but not surprising for a Regular stationed there to have his wife close by.

 

The move down to Yorkshire appears to be linked with his being in 5th Cavalry Reserve Regiment.  This was the Reserve unit for inter alia the Royal Scots Greys.

 

Plenty of Scots get born in England by the way

[Granite-Yorkie]

Another Scotsman in the unit was Thomas McEwen (C/12003), formerly of Kirkcudbright- CSM of A Company- who had previously served in the Gordon Highlanders (enlisted in 1896), serving in South Africa and being awarded both the Queen's and the King's Medals.  In 1911, he was living in Scarborough and was working as an Assistant Superintendent of an Assurance Company.  

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I've been off the forum for a few days so am just catching up - but if you search this topic on 'McEwen' you'll find he's been mentioned quite a few times. He was one of the earliest men to enlist in the Yeoman Rifles.

 

Liz

[Granite-Yorkie]

Hi Liz,

 

According to his Silver War Badge card he enlisted on 9th September 1915- being an ex-Regular and a professional man, he'd have been an obvious candidate for NCO-rank.  I think that regimental numbers were issued later, as C/12001 was A/RSM Frederick William Brown, who joined in October 1915- having been transferred from the Rifle Depot where he'd been A/CQMS (he became RSM of the 24th Battalion in March 1916, being replaced as RSM of the Yeoman Rifles by William Taylor, a regular CSM).  

 

One other guy who was involved in the early days, but did not proceed to France- I presume on account of his age- was CQMS John William Sturdy (being from Easingwold, I assume an A Company man), who features on the recruitment papers of one William Donald White, a farmer from Ampleforth.  He (Sturdy) was a former Territorial Sergeant as well as being the Scoutmaster in Easingwold and the manager of the local gasworks.

 

One interesting find, overnight, is Bugle-Corporal Edward Wilcock, who- I need to do more digging before I can confirm this- may have come from the town where my parents bought their first house.  Makes it all the more interesting  

 

Frank

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Frank

Yes, McEwen would have been an obvious candidate for NCO. I haven't previously noted Sturdy - thanks - though I did look up White quite early on because he's on the Countess photo, and I see Sturdy's name on  his  attestation now I look at my file. You've probably noticed, White was born in Appleton-le-Moors near Kirbymoorside, then the whole family seem to have moved to Thorpe-le-Willows and then Ampleforth.  He was a Lance-Corporal at the time of his death.

 

October 1915 was the earliest anyone could join.  The appeal by the northern Lords Lieutenant was printed in The Times on 6 October 1915.

 

I think regimental numbers were given soon after attestation, to judge from the dates on records - I've looked at a very large number, of whom only some have appeared on the thread because it all got  too much, but I have a lot on file, unfortunately old-fashioned paper ones as that was the way I did it when I started in 2010. 

I look forward to hearing about Wilcock, I haven't researched him!

 

Liz

 

[Granite-Yorkie]

Hi Liz,

 

I return disappointed- Wilcock wasn't the one I was thinking of, but I will continue my digging for him, having found him in Dennis's A Kitchener Man's Bit  There was one living in Jarrow, a Picture Hall Manager, in 1911 who may fit the bill (he was in C Company's photo, so puts him in the right area).  I guess he took over as Bugle-Major after Frederick William Wright (9600), a regular NCO, as he is referred to as the Bugle-Sergeant by Dennis.  Will keep plugging away- as the Yeomen fascinate me too.

 

Frank

[Provost]

From his number, P18131, he transferred into the Military Foot Police in August 1919. I don't have a datefor his discharge, but as he doesn't have a 768.... Army Number, would suggest he only served a year or so.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

From his number, P18131, he transferred into the Military Foot Police in August 1919. I don't have a datefor his discharge, but as he doesn't have a 768.... Army Number, would suggest he only served a year or so.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

Interesting Richard.

 

Woodward's service record is pretty clear on an 11 Feb 1919 discharge and no mention of a re-enlistment (unlike his several previous re-enlistments)

 

 

 

 

 

Here's his Military Foot Police BW&VM medal roll entry ...

 

with this in the Remarks column away to the right hand side ...

 

The page is date stamped 0x Dec 1920, where 'x' is illegible.

 

Any chance you could check P18125 Young, P18129 Hughes, or P18130 Trotter to confirm the dates?

 

A voluntary re-enlistment in Aug 1919 would certainly not be unusual and Woodward does have form on serial re-enlistments!  I'm just surprised it's not on his service record.  However, it would definitely account for the lack of any mention therein of the Military Foot Police.  His previous pre-War re-enlistments were either before his term had expired, or at most 4-5 weeks after discharge.  A gap of several months might mean he got a new (MFP) service record started, which we can no longer easily access.

 

Mark

 

[Provost]

Mark,

 

Sadly I don't have the dates for any of the three listed. I do, however have details for P18132 LCpl David Livingstone. Having served in the Cameron Highlanders No S/10083 from 18.8.1914 to 14.1.1919, he re-enlisted for 1 year into the MFP (aged 26 years 41 days, and giving his occupation as a coal miner) at Edinburgh on 25.8.1919. He was given the new No 7682397.

 

Going backwards, P18124 was LCpl Ernest McKenzie (Seaforth Highlanders No 9255) re-enlisted into the MFP for one year on 18.8.1919 - for those interested, he was 32 years old, and gave his occupation as Porter. His new No was 7682396

 

Hope this helps,

 

Regards,

 

Richard 

Edited 18 April , 2017 by Provost

[MBrockway]

Thanks Richard.  That's good enough for me, so it looks like Woodward was discharged from the KRRC on 11 Feb 1919, spent the spring and summer away from the Army and then re-enlisted into the Military Foot Police in August 1919 for approx 12 months.

 

Can you tell if was likely to have served overseas in the Army of Occupation?

 

Also it looks like there could be an Edinburgh enlistment theme going on.

 

Woodward had settled in Edinburgh pre-War.

 

P18132 Livingstone, ex Cameron Highlanders, re-enlisted in Edinburgh.

 

Many of the men on the same page of the MFP medal roll (and therefore with with nearby MFP P181xx service numbers) were formerly in Scottish regiments:

P18129 Hughes - Scottish Rifles

P18130 Trotter - HLI

P18132 Livingstone - Cameron Highlanders

P18135 Kirby - Gordon Highlanders

 

The other two - P18125 Young and P18136 Sweeney - were RE and RAMC respectively: both corps recruiting nationally, so could well also have been Scots.

 

Does an Edinburgh or maybe Scotland MFP re-enlistment for some or all of these men look possible to you?

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Provost]

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

None of the men you listed re-enlisted into the Military Police (either MMP or MFP). There doesn't appear to be a specific Scottish connection with regards to place of Attestation, although very close to Livingstone in terms of allocation of new numbers - which followed the old P numbers numerically - are the following three men:-

 

P18140 Alexander McVean from Perth, formerly Scottish Rifles No 33310 re-enlisted for 1 year at Dundee on 22.8.1919 – new No 7682398. Occupation, Music Hall Artist.

 

P18145 Peter James Smith from Haddington, Formerly RFA (T) No 66059 (or 661159), re-enlisted for 1 year at Edinburgh on 26.8.1919 – new No 7682399. Occupation Farm Servant.

 

P18146 Roderick McLeod from Headingdon (?), formerly Scots Guards No 12961 (6.1.1915 to 1.5.1919) re-enlisted for 1 year at Edinburgh on 21.8.1919 – new No 7682400. Occupation Grocer.

 

During the War, large numbers of troops were transferred into the MP. Sometimes these were block transfers with 10-20 men coming from the same former unit - on 1st October 1916, over 30 men from the Coldstream Guards were transferred. When you get to the end of the war (about P16500), they tend to be transferred in ones or twos.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard

[MBrockway]

21 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Many of the men on the same page of the MFP medal roll (and therefore with with nearby MFP P181xx service numbers) were formerly in Scottish regiments:

P18129 Hughes - Scottish Rifles

P18130 Trotter - HLI

P18132 Livingstone - Cameron Highlanders

P18135 Kirby - Gordon Highlanders

 

The other two - P18125 Young and P18136 Sweeney - were RE and RAMC respectively: both corps recruiting nationally, so could well also have been Scots.

 

Does an Edinburgh or maybe Scotland MFP re-enlistment for some or all of these men look possible to you?

Cheers,

Mark

 

4 hours ago, Provost said:

Dear Mark,

None of the men you listed re-enlisted into the Military Police (either MMP or MFP). There doesn't appear to be a specific Scottish connection with regards to place of Attestation, although very close to Livingstone in terms of allocation of new numbers - which followed the old P numbers numerically - are the following three men:-

 

 

Strange that they're on the same page of the British War/Victory Medal roll for the Military Foot Police then ...

 

Does this mean MFP service numbers were not issued in date sequence and they enlisted into the MFP earlier in the war?

 

Mark

 

[Provost]

Not strange. The P numbers were issued in sequence - although earlier in the War, MMP transfers were listed before MFP ones, so you get blocks for each unit. Then when the Army re-numbered, those that were still serving were allocated the new numbers beginning 7681001. If you look at the next page in the medal roll, you'll see McVean and McLeod. The new numbers were issued in the P number sequence despite the difference in date when they re-enlisted, so Smith 7682399 comes before McLeod 7682400 even though he re-enlisted a week later, but he has an earlier P number. 

 

Believe me, the Military Police numbering system is extremely complicated. Both MMP and MFP started at No 1 in 1877 and 1882 respectively (you could therefore have two men with the same number). Then in September 1914 the P numbers began in sequence covering both MMP and MFP. Any pre-war re-enlistments retained their original numbers. Then in 1919 the P numbers reverted to four figure digits, until the 768... numbers in 1920.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

Edited 19 April , 2017 by Provost

[MBrockway]

On 18/04/2017 at 13:36, Provost said:

 I do, however have details for P18132 LCpl David Livingstone. Having served in the Cameron Highlanders No S/10083 from 18.8.1914 to 14.1.1919, he re-enlisted for 1 year into the MFP (aged 26 years 41 days, and giving his occupation as a coal miner) at Edinburgh on 25.8.1919. He was given the new No 7682397.

Richard 

 

On 18/04/2017 at 17:05, MBrockway said:

Many of the men on the same page of the MFP medal roll (and therefore with with nearby MFP P181xx service numbers) were formerly in Scottish regiments:

P18129 Hughes - Scottish Rifles

P18130 Trotter - HLI

P18132 Livingstone - Cameron Highlanders

P18135 Kirby - Gordon Highlanders

The other two - P18125 Young and P18136 Sweeney - were RE and RAMC respectively: both corps recruiting nationally, so could well also have been Scots.

 

Does an Edinburgh or maybe Scotland MFP re-enlistment for some or all of these men look possible to you?

Mark

 

22 hours ago, Provost said:

Dear Mark,

None of the men you listed re-enlisted into the Military Police (either MMP or MFP).

Richard

 

 

Richard,

I'm still confused - apologies!

 

Livingstone and Woodward both re-enlisted in August 1919, yet you are saying that Young, Trotter, Kirby and Sweeney were NOT re-enlistments.

 

You've confirmed the P181xx SN's were issued in date sequence, so these others on the same page must have joined the MFP around August 1919 as well.

 

Are you saying they were transferred to the MFP from the regiments stated before they were discharged?

 

Mark

 

PS If you think MFP service numbers are complex, try the KRRC and RB schema!    I feel your pain!

[David_Underdown]

There does seem to have been some sort of scheme for short enlistments into the military police around this time.  I've researched one man who re-enlisted around the same time and was serving on the Black Sea coast.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

We seem to be getting a long way from the Yeoman Rifles, who were disbanded in March 1918.  I called this thread 'the original Yeomen' because I was 'looking for friends of Rifleman John Thomas Hardcastle' (this subtitle got lost in one of the subsequent forum changes) i.e. the men who joined at the beginning and served on the Somme.  We've since incorporated some later recruits and events but it seems to me that the thread is quite unwieldy enough without pursuing the question of postwar re-enlistments into the military police of men who weren't even in 21/KRRC.

Couldn't you have a separate thread for that topic?

Just a thought.

Liz

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

We seem to be getting a long way from the Yeoman Rifles, who were disbanded in March 1918.  I called this thread 'the original Yeomen' because I was 'looking for friends of Rifleman John Thomas Hardcastle' (this subtitle got lost in one of the subsequent forum changes) i.e. the men who joined at the beginning and served on the Somme.  We've since incorporated some later recruits and events but it seems to me that the thread is quite unwieldy enough without pursuing the question of postwar re-enlistments into the military police of men who weren't even in 21/KRRC.

Couldn't you have a separate thread for that topic?

Just a thought.

Liz

 

Fair comment Liz, but we're trying to establish what happened to Leonard Woodward who was a CQMS and CSM in 21/KRRC - an important senior NCO in the Yeoman Rifles, who, while not with the battalion at The Somme, was one of the original establishment.  Doing so requires investigating a small number of others from other regiments who followed similar paths after the Armistice, while the re-enlistment location angle gives us clues as to whether Woodward returned to Edinburgh on his discharge from the KRRC.

 

My interest, like yours, is purely KRRC, and as far as I'm concerned the MFP element, while it does cast interesting light on what many Old Soldiers may have done in the peace, is just a loose end on Woodward that needs tidying up.

 

I have found in the past that apparent off-topic diversions, do occasionally lead to new insights that later prove relevant to the subject in hand.

 

Certainly Woodward's history as a returning time-served Regular casts useful light on how the wider problem of finding NCO's around whom to build the Kitchener and Pals battalions was solved.

 

Mark

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Yes, I see what you're trying to do, Mark, but you aren't here talking about Woodward's history before coming to the Yeoman Rifles, but about military police recruitment in 1919. I repeat that I do not think it has anything to do with the central concern of this thread, and this kind of exploration unbalances it.  I've started separate threads myself before now concerning research on aspects of  individual 21/KRRC officers and men in order  to avoid doing this, and to get contributions from those who aren't necessarily going to come to this thread.

 

 

Liz

Edited 21 April , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Granite-Yorkie]

I apologise for having been too busy to come on here.  With relation to Woodward, I notice now that he didn't embark with the Yeoman Rifles in May 1916.  Now I'm wondering who took over as C Company's CQMS? There's more digging for me on my days off 

Edited 4 May , 2017 by Granite-Yorkie

[Tim Peters]

My grandfather was Ernest Forster, he is mentioned, in this forum, as being injured on June 1st 2016 at Plug Street Wood. He lived to 1985 dying at 89 years old but all I knew about his service is that Anthony Eden was his commanding officer. He never drove a car as he developed epilepsy after his injury but had a full career with the railways at York - he was originally from North Yorkshire. I do know that he kept up with reunions religiously and was one of the last from KRRC to survive.

 

I am currently in Ypres, singing with a choir and we will sing at the Last Post ceremony tomorrow evening at Menin Gate.

 

I would welcome any advice on how I might research Grandpa's war record further using online resources

 

Many thanks 

[MBrockway]

56 minutes ago, Tim Peters said:

My grandfather was Ernest Forster, he is mentioned, in this forum, as being injured on June 1st 2016 at Plug Street Wood. He lived to 1985 dying at 89 years old but all I knew about his service is that Anthony Eden was his commanding officer. He never drove a car as he developed epilepsy after his injury but had a full career with the railways at York - he was originally from North Yorkshire. I do know that he kept up with reunions religiously and was one of the last from KRRC to survive.

 

I am currently in Ypres, singing with a choir and we will sing at the Last Post ceremony tomorrow evening at Menin Gate.

 

I would welcome any advice on how I might research Grandpa's war record further using online resources

 

Many thanks 

 

Welcome to the Rifles Family here on the Forum, Tim!

 

Ernest FORSTER was Rifleman C/12585.

 

He also served in 7/KRRC (41 Brigade, 14th (Light) Division).  Here is his medal roll entry detailing his battalions:

 

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Tim Peters]

Mark, many thanks for this. 

 

I will be cycling to Ploegsteert (I love the anglicisation to Plug Street!) Wood tomorrow to see where Ernest Forster was injured. Having cross referenced this site against Anthony Eden I see that it was a mission here to capture a German soldier and the subsequent injury to his Sergeant that lead to Eden being awarded an M.C. I do not know if my grandfather played a part in this mission or the subsequent rescue of the injured sergeant but it must be a possibility.

 

Ernest lived in Kirbymoorside, his father (John) was Station Master, I note that Liz has identified other rifleman from this village.

 

Tim

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Tim

I hope you're enjoying your day cycling in the Plugstreet Wood area - I've never been there, though I've visited every Somme cemetery containing a Yeoman Rifles grave, and would like to do so.

 

Welcome from me too – I can’t really claim to be a ‘Rifles family’ member as Mark puts it, but at least I can welcome you to this exploration of the original recruits to the Yeoman Rifles, of whom your grandfather was certainly one.

 

Apart from what you’ve found on this thread already I haven’t found anything else except his MIC, which doesn’t give as much information as Mark has already given you from the Medal Index Roll – just that he was KRRC C/12585. It doesn’t look as if his service record survived.

 

I hope you won’t mind my saying that I doubt if Anthony Eden was his commanding officer.  GV Dennis’s book (p 48) states that he was wounded in the incident on 1 June, when they were in the Plugstreet Wood sector, as a member of 2/Lt Graham’s platoon of A Company. Three men were killed and I assume the reason why Dennis says ‘some men were wounded, including Ernest Forster’ is that he was the one he remembered because they later met up at reunions. (The first edition of this book was edited in 1993 by Michael Hickes, though the main text was done in 1928.)  

 

You would expect him to be in A Company, as a man from North Yorkshire, though later recruits often had to be fitted in elsewhere because that company, including men from Feversham’s heartland of North Yorkshire and also East Yorkshire, filled up. But this incident confirms it.

 

Eden was only the commanding officer of no 9 Platoon, C Company, as a young second Lieutenant, until the losses at Flers on 15 September 1916 caused him to be catapulted into the position of Adjutant for the whole battalion, a position he retained until he was transferred to Second Army HQ in July 1917.  He never became the commanding officer of any other platoon or of a company. The only possible time for your grandfather to be in his platoon would have been June – September 1916, if he was returned to a different platoon after recovering from being wounded. I know you say you know nothing more than that Eden was his commanding officer, but I’ll ask anyway:  do you know how badly he was wounded (you mention he was left with epilepsy)? Did he fight on the Somme, or was he so badly hurt that he only returned to France later? In the absence of any dates for his time in 7th Battalion we don’t know if he joined them immediately after recovering from wounds sustained on 1 June 1916, or later.  After the 21st Bn was disbanded in March 1918 many men were transferred to other KRRC battalions, but 7th Bn was reduced to cadre shortly after that so seems an unlikely destination. EDIT but see post 579 below - it's possible.

 

I'm just going to check my unwieldy paper files - if only I'd realised in 2010 that this would grow like Topsy, I might have sought advice on recording my information on spreadsheets...

Edited 29 May , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne