21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[The Scorer]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2011 at 14:05, David_Underdown said:

Ewen has an RAF service record online at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8214400 - this link may change as TNA are about to put higher res versions of the images up, but there's only four men with the surname Ewen. This suggests to me that he didn't have continuous service in the RAF, or his WWI record probably wouldn't be available. Without paying to download it, the only thing it tells us further is that he was born on 19 September 1893. I've noticed that WWI RFC officers were quite often actaully on the General List and attacehd to the RFC - there was probably some good (bureaucratic) reason at the time. As to his WWII service, if you page back to page697, you'll see his commission was in the Administrative and Special Duties Branch, so he wasn't flying (General Duties). I understand a number of WWI officers were employed as squadron intelligence officers and the like, briefing the pilots on missions and so on.

 

I've been looking at this thread (although, admittedly, I haven't read all of it) because of my interest in Lieutenant J F B Ewen (see the "Mystery HLI Captain" thread for more details.

 

I'd like to see Lt. Ewen's  RAF service record, but the link posted here doesn't work anymore. I've done several searches on the TNA web site, but with no success - can someone help me find this, please?

 

Thanks.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

This is probably not the best place on which to post your request, since it doesn't relate to the Yeoman Rifles except tangentially - perhaps someone on the War in the Air subforum could help, or lookup requests? 

I have just found the other thread you mention - it looks unlikely to me that our JFB Ewen is your JB Ewen, as he came from Suffolk, was studying in Sussex in 1911 and has no known links  to Wales - though it's true I don't seem to have looked for his career between 1911 and 1914.  See #229.

 

Liz

[David_Underdown]

Now here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8258638 - I don't know why I didn't mention the catalogue reference too last time, AIR 76/155/45.

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, The Scorer said:

 

I've been looking at this thread (although, admittedly, I haven't read all of it) because of my interest in Lieutenant J F B Ewen (see the "Mystery HLI Captain" thread for more details.

 

I'd like to see Lt. Ewen's  RAF service record, but the link posted here doesn't work anymore. I've done several searches on the TNA web site, but with no success - can someone help me find this, please?

 

Thanks.

 

Try here:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8258638#imageViewerLink

 

Mark

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Scorer

I was being a bit slow last night.  The reason why J F B Ewen who spent a short time in the Yeoman Rifles before going to the Royal Flying Corps cannot be your man on a Welsh memorial is that he survived the war, as related in my post #229. I appreciate you couldn't read all the thread but this came up on a search.

 

Liz

Edited 4 February , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne
Add link

[The Scorer]

Okay, thank you both for your help.

 

I didn't think that it would be the same person, but it was worth looking at .... more research is necessary!

[Alwyn Todd]

 I'm sorry I am not responding re this topic but I have tried to put a new topic regarding my Father Alan Todd of Helmsley on this site.  He was a stretcher bearer and was wounded in June 1916.

His service No. C-12210 PTE A.Todd. K.R.RIF.C. an original Yeoman.

The blog seems to have been put in the general section. Perhaps you can tell me how to put in The Yeoman Rifles as I have had no response with " contact us " on the website

Many thanks for any help you can give

Alwyn Todd

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Alwyn

Welcome to the forum, and this thread. You are in the right place now and we'd really like to hear about your father, Rifleman Alan Todd C/12210.

 

EDIT I have now seen your other thread ,  that your father is in the Helmsley  'Countess' photo which we posted early on in this thread. and that you already have 'A Kitchener Man's Bit'.  It would be good if you could post your father's details.  I'm afraid I haven't got any further details specifically on him - so you would be adding to our knowledge.

 

Liz

Edited 9 February , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Alwyn Todd]

I have just that this now in The Yeoman site.He was mentioned in Appendix 11 in " A Kitchener Man, Bit " and I found out how to access a letter by Jon Collier mentioned in the book. 

What i would like to know is after his convalesce in Duncombe Park is is there any information as he used to say he was in Ypres for some time.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Not sure what you mean by the Yeoman site, Alwyn.

 

Yes, I saw you'd been referred to the Liddle Collection, as mentioned in  'A Kitchener Man's Bit.'  After finding out  a bit about John Collier from Dennis's book as recounted here I intended to go  to Leeds and look him up but that was more than seven years ago and I'm afraid I still haven't done it.  But I'm sure it's worth emailing them.  It's a pity Dennis doesn't say anything about him in his main text - the Appendix I think was the result of conversations between him and his editor for the first edition of the book.

 

Your documents did not get posted on to the other thread as you wished - just the titles have come up.

I'll pm you.

Liz

 

 

[Alwyn Todd]

Like most men like my father he was very reluctant to talk about his experiences during WW1. He was as I have already said born Helmsley 7th Jan 1896 died Whitby 24th Dec 1984.  He told me he was a stretcher bearer and spent many months  at Ypres. He said that during his time he experienced a mild gassing lots of mud an rain and at one time they were so short of water they even tried drinking their own urine, also whilst in no-mans land a german soldier pointed his gun at him then changed his mind and waved him on.He was always deaf and blamed it on the gunfire etc. He was wounded and sent back to Duncombe Park. I always assumed that this was at Ypres until I found his hospital record which was in June 2016 so I presume this was at Plugstreet Wood and he must have returned to the front at sometime but I have found no information about this.

Hi Liz I will try to send the 2 documents to your email as suggested

 

Alwyn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello again Alwyn

Thanks - I've just seen the two docs you have sent me, though I don't think I can post them  as they are within the message.  The medal card just gives the 21st Battalion, but I see from the medal roll (accessed via Ancestry online) that he was later in the 7th Battalion.  I think that would account for your father's Ypres experience.  The medical record as you know refers to his wounds from Plugstreet Wood so they don't help with the Ypres part.

 

Excuse this brief reply for the moment - I'll come back tomorrow and perhaps others will too.

 

Liz

[Alwyn Todd]

Hello Liz

I have been looking at 7th Battalions on the internet and there seems many Divisions. I am assuming (rightly or wrongly)  the Yorkshire Division ( Green Howards ) is the most likely one.

I must re read "A Kitchener Man's Bit " as if I remember correctly they were at times joined by other Battalions.

Many thanks for that info.

Alwyn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello again Alwyn, and sorry I haven't been back sooner.

If you click on  'Long Long Trail' at the top of the  page  you are on the site founded by Chris Baker before this one, containing a great deal of information to guide you through all this detail.

 

Click on ‘Army’, then on ‘Regiments and Corps’, then ‘Infantry regiments’, then ‘Line regiments’, then ‘King’s Royal Rifle Corps’, where you find this information after the regular battalions:

 
Battalions of the New Armies
7th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Winchester on 19 August 1914 as part of K1 and came under orders of 41st Brigade in 14th (Light) Division. Moved to Aldershot, going on to Grayshott in November and in February 1915 went to Bordon. Returned to Aldershot in March 1915.
19 May 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
2 February 1918 : transferred to 43rd Brigade in same Division.
25 April 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
16 June 1918 : transferred to 49th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division and returned to England.
Cadre was absorbed by 34th Bn, the London Regiment at Clacton

 

For this, the 21st Battalion, the same applies of course, only you scroll further down.

 

Next go back a couple of stages in the same ‘Army’ section till you get to Order of Battle of Divisions’ and then to the history of the 14th division which tells you what battles the battalion took part in for each year of the war. Then you can see which other battalions they were brigaded with:
The order of battle of the 14th (Light) Division
41st Brigade    
7th Bn, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps    left February 1918
8th Bn, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps    left as a cadre in June 1918
7th Bn, the Rifle Brigade    left June 1918
8th Bn, the Rifle Brigade    left as a cadre in June 1918
41st Machine Gun Company    joined 15 February 1916
left to move into 14th MG Battalion 1 March 1918
41st Trench Mortar Battery    joined 2 May 1916
18th Bn, the York & Lancaster Regt    joined in England June 1918
29th Bn, the Durham Light Infantry    joined in England June 1918
33rd Bn, the London Regiment    joined in England June 1918

    
This (21st) battalion is under 124th Brigade, 41st Division.

 

You will then want to go back to the top bar and select ‘Battles’ to find out more about  what the 7th Bn were doing in 1917, or the 21st in 1916.

 

This then gives you a basis for further reading.  Hope that helps.

 

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

The Long Long Trail again

Just to add in the parts where I've said  the same will apply for the 21st Battalion, you'll find

41st Division history
giving battles for each year, then

 

The order of battle of the 41st Division

124th Brigade    
10th Bn, the Queen’s    
26th Bn, the Royal Fusiliers    
32nd Bn, the Royal Fusiliers    disbanded March 1918
21st Bn, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps    (Yeomen Rifles) disbanded March 1918
124th Machine Gun Company    joined June 1916, moved to 41st Bn MGC March 1918
124th Trench Mortar Battery    joined June 1916
20th Bn, the Durham Light Infantry    (Wearside) joined from 123rd Bde March 1918

 

Liz

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

This is Alwyn's father's medical record, which he sent me by email. The medal card, as I mentioned, only says that he was in 21st Bn so I won't post this.  EDIT  Rather difficult to read, but I'm sure we can improve it.

Edited 12 February , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[MBrockway]

For what it's worth, here we go.  Unfortunately it appears to be a listing from (possibly) the Forces War Records transcription of MH106 and appears to contains at least two transcription errors ("A/1210", "Railway Company" etc.)

 

Alwyn would be much better to go straight to the original MH106/157 at the National Archives to see what the document actually says   This has not been digitised however, so a visit to Kew will be required.

 

The National Archive catalogue gives MH 106/157 as being the Admissions Register for 139th Field Ambulance 22 Jun - 12 Jul 1916.  See here:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C543710

 

Note that the transcription has the admission as being into 140th FA.  It's unclear from the transcription whether Todd was admitted to 139th FA from 140th FA, or whether this is another transcription error.  On the other hand, there does not appear to be a discrete Register in MH106 for 140th Field Ambulance.

 

Forces War Records gives another MH106 hit for 'C/1210 Rfn A Todd, KRRC' admitted to hospital in 1918.  If Alwyn has access to the individual record, then the Archive Reference will give the MH106 Piece Number at TNA for that later hospital admission and again, I would advise getting the original and not relying on the FWR's often dubious transcriptions.

 

 

HTH

Mark

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Mark, I hoped you'd come along.  I was puzzled by 'Railway Company', what's it a mistranscription of? It's a long way from 'A Company'.

 

Going to Kew is the counsel of perfection certainly, but could also yield frustrating little - though if there is another hospital record for 1918, it would provide a location for Alan Todd at that point. I should think that as for so many men, reading up on the actions  of the relevant battalions  will provide more information.

 

The dates on this record  do as Alwyn says locate him at Plugstreet Wood when he was wounded in 1916 -  and  a single bullet wound suggests a sniper not a shell, doesn't it?

 

Liz

Edited 13 February , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[MBrockway]

The transcription quality in this dataset is often dubious.

 

'Railway company' could well be the transcriber's 'inference' from, say, 'R. company', which in itself could be a misreading for, say, 'A Company'.

 

Similarly I would be very circumspect about 'Bullet wound'.  Again, the transcriber may have 'inferred' this from the standard "G.S.W." - gun shot wound - which would include artillery shrapnel wounds.

 

You're 100% correct that there may be frustratingly little in the original MH 106/157 record at Kew, but still best to go straight to the primary source if at all possible.

 

I recently did this same exercise after finding my own grandfather had two search hits in the Forces War Records MH 106 index.  The originals at Kew revealed major errors in the transcriptions on FWR, which, for example had the wrong battalion and, worse, had him in hospital in Blighty from Dec 1916 to Jun 1917.  The Kew originals showed he was in fact discharged in Jan 1917!

 

The general observation seems to be that the transcribing seems to have been undertaken by persons with little knowledge of the British Army or the Great War or even of British handwriting styles!

 

If Alwyn cannot himself get to Kew, he may be able to get Kew to copy it for him, but this will of course cost something   There's a button on the catalogue page to request a quotation for the same.

 

Mark

 

Edited 13 February , 2018 by MBrockway

[Alwyn Todd]

Many thanks for your responses. I do not have the original  and it is unlikely I will be able to get to Kew.

 

I am at this moment thinking to contacting "The Army Personnel Centre, Support Division Historical Disclosures" to see what they can offer.

 

Alwyn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Mark.

Your deductions about how the transcription came to read 'Railway Company' sounds entirely plausible to me.  The perils of over-deduction when you don't know anything about a subject...I haven't used Forces War Records, only Ancestry and Findmypast.  They too are as we all know beset by transcription errors but at least you can see the original there.

 

Alan Todd was definitely in A Company - he's on the 'Countess' photo.

Transcribing 'gun shot' as 'bullet' is a bit of a liberty  but as you say possible.

 

Alwyn, your post has come in as I was writing.  If the Army Personnel centre cannot help (I've no idea about them) perhaps you could follow Mark's suggestion and pay for a copy from Kew, unless someone here is going in the near future - you could request help in the 'Documents- requests and offers' section of the forum.

 

Liz

Edited 14 February , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Alwyn Todd]

Hello again,

I have now been through to The Army Personnel Centre, Support Division Historical Disclosures" and unfortunately they have no records before 1920.

 

Like both of you he thinks Kew is the best bet but did go on to say that 50 to 6o % of WW1 records were lost in WWII so there may be very little on record . I will now see if I can get anywhere using your suggestions.

 

Best wishes & thank you for your input

 

Alwyn.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Alwyn, I forgot to mention that  I had already tried to find your father's military record on Ancestry, couldn't and assumed you had also already failed to do so.  I assume it was, indeed, one of the many destroyed.  The hospital file is all Mark was suggesting you would find, I think.

 

Liz

[MBrockway]

Correct.  MH 106/157 is the Admissions Register for 139th Field Ambulance 22 Jun - 12 Jul 1916.  See here:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C543710

 

Todd will have a single row across a double page in that book.

 

If you can get TNA to only copy that double page, you could see change from £30.

 

Mark

 

[Alwyn Todd]

I have just found another record of my father  in Forces War Record in 1918.he It seems to say that he was then in the 16th Battalion. You Liz had found him in the 7th Battalion so somewhere he was moved. I get more confused !

I am hopefully inserting this latest this record.

 

Alwyn