21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[Chutist33]

Hello Liz, Glad to see thread still going strong. Had a massive sort out and bonfire, but came across some of notes of trip that Gerald Dennis asked me to look out for. I presume they must have been especial friends of his and he wanted photos of their graves. There was 'Patch' Watson at La Clytte, Willie Spence, 'Nug' Weston, T E Turner, John Barker and Jack Palframan. I found them all - and on Thiepval monument - and sent him pictures. I also have the sheet for Geralds service of thanksgiving on 18.9.1994 and wonder if you would like it for your file? Best wishes, Jim K

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Good to hear from you, Jim. That's a very kind offer that I cannot refuse, whether you mean by scan or the original - I'll be in touch by pm in case our emails have changed since we were last in touch!

Liz

[fox29]

An update on John Thomas Hardcastle - as part of the Tower of London remembrance he was nominated for the roll of honour and he name was read out on yesterday’s roll (25^th October).

[Catandcabbage]

Prompted by Liz to add to this thread. Here is a link to a web page I created recently for a family friend who's granddad is 2Lt John SOWERBY a former 21st Batt KRRC man. It is a very interesting account of his capture in 1918. Here is the link SOWERBY John

I hope you guys find this interesting.

Rob

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Very interesting, thank you, Rob.

I see you have his attestation details - were these in his officer record? I have not been able to find his 21/KRRC service record on Ancestry.

I wonder if the Sowerby family originally came from Yorkshire? There are several Yeoman Riflemen from Sowerby, near Thirsk.

Liz

 

[Catandcabbage]

Hi Liz, afraid I don't know the SOWERBY'S that well but I can ask. I work with Vicky the granddaughter of John SOWERBY. I will ask though but I can tell you that this branch of the family is in Yorkshire.

I did get the attestation details from his officer papers.

Rob

[Guest Reggiegirl]

Re: Rfn, R/28563 - Reginald Percy Barrell - 21/KRRC "B" Co. 7 Ptn & 41/MGC

Having just joined this forum after noticing my Gt Uncle's name on here (p.12) knowing that he was in the 21/KRRC & 41/MGC (infantry), I'm hoping someone can assist with more information about his time in the service. He, being my grandfather's youngest brother and having done family research, I know he was born 1895 in Nettlestead, Suffolk, was a farmer labourer before joining up and died of wounds 26/3/18 at The Somme, buried at St Hilaire, Frevent (CWG no. VF7).

I was delighted to see the photo of him seated in the front row, with his platoon. I do have a photo of him in uniform, on his own, with my mother's sister as a child.

Has anyone got any information about him?

Thank you in advance if you have!!

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Reggiegirl - welcome to the forum.

I'm so glad you found your great-uncle on Jim's B Company 7 platoon photo. I am not sure whether I connected him with that photo, though I referred to him twice, on p. 11 and p 12. I see on my file that I just have his CWGC and Soldiers Died in the Great War records and refer to the Medal Index Card just showing he was 'Pte KRRC' and census records 1901 and 1911 - all of which you have, I think.

You will see information about men your great-uncle served with who are in that photo, but I never finished doing them as something else came up - that's the story of this thread! It's been going for more than four years and I have forgotten some of things I put on it myself. In addition I have a lot of information that never made it on to the thread.

The two books referred to elsewhere on the thread, by Anthony Eden (later PM of course but a very young officer in the battalion) and GV Dennis, were both by men in C Company so there tends to be less on individuals in other companies, though Eden mentions other officers, and Dennis mentions other signallers. They are well worth reading for a general picture of the battalion - as is the rest of this thread.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Re: Rfn, R/28563 - Reginald Percy Barrell - 21/KRRC "B" Co. 7 Ptn & 41/MGC

Having just joined this forum after noticing my Gt Uncle's name on here (p.12) knowing that he was in the 21/KRRC & 41/MGC (infantry), I'm hoping someone can assist with more information about his time in the service. He, being my grandfather's youngest brother and having done family research, I know he was born 1895 in Nettlestead, Suffolk, was a farmer labourer before joining up and died of wounds 26/3/18 at The Somme, buried at St Hilaire, Frevent (CWG no. VF7).

I was delighted to see the photo of him seated in the front row, with his platoon. I do have a photo of him in uniform, on his own, with my mother's sister as a child.

Has anyone got any information about him?

Thank you in advance if you have!!

Which one is he, Reggiegirl? I can't see him in the front row. I did identify Bonsell or Bonsall and Burrows, the two similar names. Here's the photo again.

The reason I referred to him at the time was that he carried on in 41st Division, in the Machine Gun Company, after the Yeoman Rifles were disbanded, as did Beresford (who was in the photo) and one or two others, and died at about the same time during the German spring 1918 offensive.

But, as I said, so much has been added that I may have forgotten or missed something.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

One last thought before I go out - as Reginald Percy Barrell was from Suffolk and enlisted in Camberwell, he wouldn't be likely to be in the original B company 7 Platoon, though it's possible. They were almost all from the West Riding of Yorkshire. I assume I couldn't find his military record on Ancestry, though I haven't checked again. Do you happen to have it?

Liz

[Anthony Child]

Good morning ,

I am writing to ask if anyone could assist with the following ...... I am helping a friend with his research into his great-grandfather, c/12659 L/Cpl Tom Sugden of 'B' Coy, 21st KRRC, who was killed in the attack at Flers between the 15-17th September 1916 (evidence suggests the 15th). At present, he has no known grave and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

A letter to his family from the War Office in Jan 1917, mentions that he is buried at Flers; ; a further letter ( Feb 1919 )states that, although he was erroneously reported to be buried at Etaples Military Cemetery ( goodness knows how they arrived at that), he was now buried in 'Grave 181, map ref S.12.b.8.7' - (?) which, according to records from this site is the old Flers Dressing Station Cemetery that was subsequently concentrated into the Guards Cemetery at Lesbouefs.

I have looked at his CWCC entry and the form W.3372 - Graves Registration Report Form - does state that the bodies of the men listed were 'Exhumations' and were buried at Lesboeufs.

Of the men of the 21st listed on the same sheet and who died in the same action, only one, C/12707 L/C N. Bradbury, has a known grave in Lesbouefs ( 1V.F.3), the rest being commemorated at Thiepval.

It would be good to find Tom's grave, or at the very least have a Special Memorial to him in Lesboeufs; any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Anthony Child

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Anthony, and welcome to the Forum.

Thank you very much for this interesting information and query about L/Cpl Tom Sugden and sorry I’ve been so slow to reply – I have been offline for a week. I don’t think I’ll be able to help directly in getting the CWGC to consider a new special memorial, but someone else on the Forum may be able to and I will flag up your query to Chris Harley, who has a lot of experience in the field of non-commemorations and wrong commemorations. I suppose it should be for all eleven names, not just Tom Sugden, but so many removed from the Thiepval memorial might be a bit difficult.

You may be interested in the posts I made after visiting the Guards’ Cemetery at Lesboeufs in May 2012, # 301-306. I don’t think the CWGC website at that time showed these additional reports, so I missed this list, and am very glad you drew our attention to it. There are 13 names of 21/KRRC men including one officer, Frank Benton.

Of those, as you say, L/Cpl Norman Bradbury is already listed by the CWGC with his grave reference in the Guards’ Cemetery. I had him on file but seem to have omitted to mention him in the brief biographies I put on the thread at that time. (He was a schoolmaster from near Barnsley – his father, a miner, wrote ‘Bunkum’ on a section of the War Office form re next of kin that annoyed him.)

One other is crossed out, C/12550 Rfn R (Ralph) Jaques (the form spells it ‘Jacques’ as is more usual). He’s buried in the Caterpillar Valley Cemetery at Longueval, same date of death, and has a grave reference and headstone.

I think as you say that all the other 11 are on the Thiepval Memorial despite having apparently been exhumed and buried in the Guards’ Cemetery at Lesboeufs (EDIT Chris says below that this isn't what the forms show). I’ll transcribe the list as it’s a bit smudgy, and so that anyone else interested in any name on the list might find it. All are given the death date 15/9/16, which is the correct date for ‘killed in action’, but it was routinely written ‘15/17’ because of the general confusion. I’ll add Christian names and companies where I know them from records, but they aren’t given.

C/16703 should be R/16703, Rfn B Witt, who is Bertie Witt, enlisted in London and with his service number probably joined the battalion a bit later, not in Yorkshire.

C/12422 Rfn C J (Clarence Jenkinson) Belfield (D Coy)

C/12356 Rfn J H (James Hubert) Beeson (D Coy)

C/12600 Rfn O R (Oliver Russell) Grieveson (B Coy, 7 platoon)

C/12595 Rfn R H (Robert Henry) Lambert (A Coy)

C/12459 L/Sgt H (Harold) Bonsall (B Coy 7 platoon)

C/12172 Cpl F W (Francis Wilson) Skilbeck

C/12707 L/Cpl N (Norman) Bradbury (B Coy)

C/12399 L/Cpl L (Leonard) Barrett (B Coy 7 platoon)

C/12659 L/Cpl T (Tom) Sugden (B Coy)

C/ 12344 Rfn H (Harry) Gill (B Coy)

2/Lt F (Frank) Benton

Another 21/KRRC officer who was killed a few weeks later, 2/Lt D J Yeaman, has his name on a special memorial in the same cemetery stating that he is believed to be buried somewhere in it, which I imagine is what you think should happen here. Your friend as a descendant with relevant documents would, I’m sure, be the person to pursue this with the CWGC but perhaps Chris Harley or someone else may be able to help.

Liz

Edited 10 May , 2015 by Liz in Eastbourne

[chrisharley9]

Liz altered me to this one. Now I am having to ask advice myself as I have never really dealt with anything on the Western Front before. The documents I looked at (all from Bradbury's entry) are somewhat contradictory & confusing. Indeed one of the docs which has them all in the same plot then has cancelled written over it. Bradbury himself then seems to move to a different area of the cemetery

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Chris. I see what you mean about that second form. It has a different list from the first, though: it omits Rfn Witt and Ja( c )ques from the beginning, and 2/Lt Benton from the end, and adds seven other names, which I'll have a look at. The first form also has 'Cancels Report 116, Scheds 2244-273c' at the top. They are both Forms 116, with different schedule numbers. I can't see dates on them.

But I am out of my depth here as regards what happened and why, and can only reiterate that a relative of any of the men with correspondence such as Anthony's friend possesses, might ask the CWGC to explain.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I see now that the remaining names on the second form are all casualties of Gird Ridge (usually marked 5/10 October 1916 on records, see previous discussions): Again, I'll list them in case others might be interested.

C/12927 M H (Morton Herbert Feakes

From Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Leicestershire. On Thiepval Memorial.

C/12823 Rfn W Dennison – Thomas William Denison has this number, B Coy, aged 21 from Leeds, KIA 5/10 Oct. Thiepval

C/22168 Rfn A J (Alexander James) Gray (This service number doesn't seem to exist - CWGC website says R/20736)

KIA 10 Oct. Thiepval.

C/12396 Rfn John William Snodgrass from Wakefield, occupation ‘Teamer’, KIA 10 Oct (Gird Ridge). Buried AIF Burial Ground, Flers, XF1

C/13185 Rfn G (George Henry Frederick) Swannell (This service number does not exist – website says.R/18147. KIA 10 Oct 1916 Thiepval.

R/11128 L/C A (Alexander Joseph) Marron. KIA 10 Oct 1916 Thiepval.

R33139 L/C A (Alexander) Flaherty from Hackney, aged 19, KIA 10 Oct 1916. Thiepval.

There is a different list to the left of the cancelled list on these casualties' records, with still more Yeomen Riflemen's names. It does seem from the information given above and below them that the left-hand list is the final report and the right-hand (cancelled) one the working copy. I'm still not clear what happened to change the situation from when the lists were made but it looks unlikely to be something the CWGC would revisit. Still, it would be worth checking.

Liz

[chrisharley9]

The form relates to removal of memorial crosses to the cemetery hence the cancellation. They never were buried there with the exception of Bradbury.

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

But what about the (apparently later) list, on the left? That still has 10 other names of Yeoman Riflemen killed at Flers as well as Bradbury, and Anthony says Tom Sugden's family had a letter in 1919 saying he was in the Flers burial ground. Yet they all ended up on the memorial to the missing.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I'm wondering if the fighting around Lesboeufs in spring 1918 accounts for the fact that these men's burial places could no longer be found, and the IWGC (as it then was) was referring to older records at the time of these forms. Is that feasible?

Liz

[chrisharley9]

Liz

The concentration documents are the clincher for me. Bradbury's body was found at a totally different place to the others on the first doc & then on the second he is with a group that are for memorial only that were found at another location. Apparently they did bring in memorial crosses from the field where they could when bodies were not found.

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Chris

Apologies for being slow - I haven't studied these kinds of grave registration documents before. When you say 'the concentration documents' you mean the two on display on Bradbury's and the others' CWGC website entries? The first the one on the right, the second the one on the left?

So how do you know Bradbury's body was found at a totally different place from the others on the first, cancelled document? I realize his case must have been different, as he ended up with a headstone and they didn't, but I am struggling to understand the paperwork. Most of them are with him again on the second document, along with Witt and 2/Lt Benton. The other seven that were as I said killed a few weeks later, not far away, all ended up on the memorial as well, except one. Several cemeteries in the area, including the Guards' at Lesboeufs, have headstones for 21/KRRC casualties from both actions.

Why do they not cross out the printed line 'The following are buried here' if it's not applicable? Also the map refs for both forms are the same.

Would you have been able to tell that these were forms dealing with memorial crosses only, just from the documents? Is the line 'MEMORIAL CROSS 64. NAMES ON ONE CROSS 15.9.16 on the first document significant?

I hope Anthony (the person who made the query) is better at understanding this than I am!

Liz

[Anthony Child]

Wow ! Plenty to go on here. Many many thanks for all contributions and time and effort taken, it is really appreciated. I have written ashort book about two of my ancestors killed in The Great War and research was nothing new to me ( as a result, the CWCG fitted a new gravestone to one and updated their details of another - long stry, won't bore you with it ), but I too had not encountered these documents before. Looks like I've still got a bit to do ...

Best wishes

Anthony

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Anthony. I hope you'll let us know if you find out more.

Liz

[Anthony Child]

Morning Liz, Will do - we are going to do a bit more digging over the next few weeks. My mate has a photo of Tom - if you would like that in the meantime, let me know and I'll ( try) to scan a copy on

In the meantime, could I ask that, if anyone has a copy of the War Diary / Appendices for the 21st for that 15th December, would they mind forwarding an attachment onto me ?

Thanks again

Anthony

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Morning Anthony.

It would be great to have a photo of Tom Sugden on the thread. Thank you.

You mean Flers, 15th September? It's already on the thread but I realize it's a bit much to expect anyone to read this mammoth thread from the beginning and will go back and find the relevant bits and link to them. I referred to Anthony Eden's book and also Gerald Dennis's 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' as well as the War Diary. Both of them were in C Company, Dennis transferring to D company after Flers, so frustratingly for those of us interested in men in B Company, there is less about those men in their books. It is however clear that some men from B Company got ahead of the artillery bombardment and many were killed by British shells, sadly,

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

This post has the War Diary entry for those days.

There's a lot about the attack on 15 September in posts before and after, of course. The thread has developed over several years with a lot of information being found in checking the biographies of officers and men, so it's not easy to summarise it all. It really wants organising into a book, but I haven't got round to it.

Liz