21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[Old Owl]

LIZ thought you were having a rest from the forum !!! In a PM today with TT I asked if it was possible that H borrowed a uniform to have a photo taken before he was kitted out with his KRRC uniform ?

Maybe he wanted his mum to have a photo of him in uniform as she was moving from Goole to Bradford ??? I am confident that the photo is H (he looks like my grandad, his brother) but the uniform is a mystery !!

Tommo.

Hi Tommo,

It is quite likely that with living in Bradford that Harry enlisted into the West Yorks, and was subsequently moved to the 21st KRRC. His MIC does not know show this, but if his service record has survived then this may show the transfer. Have you searched for this?

Robert

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Robert, thanks very much, that means Mark was right to see ORK, which I wasn't convinced by from peering at the letters but it certainly makes sense. Alas the service record doesn't seem to have survived but maybe he was, as you say, one who transferred after enlisting. I had been wondering if it was his brother!

You're right Tommo, I did say I'd be off the forum; it was simply that I knew I would be out a lot, but I had to check in this evening to see how things were going!!

Here's an image of the shoulder title I just Googled

Liz

[trenchtrotter]

Re Tommos q regarding borrowing a uniform. Unlikely but not impossible. If the tunic were a prop the studio had it would be not be badged.

TT

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Well, that's a possibility then, if rather unlikely. On the other hand, I've continued to wonder about a brother, as I am still puzzled that a man with a fairly early 21/KRRC number (comparing it with others, I think he must have enlisted in early November 1915) would have transferred from another regiment. Later drafts were a different matter.

I think he might have been switched at the recruiting stage but not have stayed long enough in another regiment to be in their uniform.

Tommo, this may be a completely untenable notion, but could it be Harry's elder brother? I saw that Harry had an elder brother born c 1888 called Arthur, who was married and still living in Goole at the time of the 1911 census. There are a number of MICs for Arthur Thompsons in the West Yorkshire Regiment. And, partly depending on how old your father's aunt was when her brothers went to war, might she later have got confused about the photograph? I notice that when the eldest brothers were 23 and 18 in 1911, the youngest daughter Helena was 4; in 1915, their ages would have been 27, 22 and 8.

Is this line of thinking ruled out by family information?

Liz

[MBrockway]

One possibility might be the 7th Btn, West Yorkshire Regiment - the Leeds Rifles. A transfer back and forth between the Leeds Rifles and the Yeoman Rifles (21/KRRC) might have been feasible, though unusual.

One might expect Leeds Rifles shoulder titles and buttons to be blackened though.

[trenchtrotter]

Liz,

I think now based on above it is the brother and not Harry?

TT

[tommo21]

Liz , TT, Mark,

As I have previously stated the first my Dad knew of his uncle Harry was the letter from his aunt.

Unfortunately by the time the letter arrived all of the people who could have confirmed the identity of the person in the photo had passed away.

Looking at Liz's prognosis I have to say that it is very plausible however, did her brother Arthur survive ? If so surely she would know that it was him in the photo.

The mystery grows !!!!

Looks like I now have another Gt Uncle in WW 1 to research !!! I am new to researching family etc and didn't even know I had a Gt Uncle Arthur. Although I did know my Gt Aunt Helena.

[DaveBrigg]

Rifleman Joseph Neall

Joe Neall was born in Brigg, Lincolnshire on October 16th 1895. His mother Emily had been previously married, so Joe already had four half-siblings. They lived apparently at 11 Morleys Yard, (later documents put them at number 10) a narrow and crowded court near the centre of town suggesting relative poverty, although his father Henry worked on the railway. Joe won a scholarship to Brigg Grammar School, the only one in his family to do so, and started there in 1908. He left in 1913, becoming as assistant teacher at the Boys National School in Brigg. Football was a passion, and he was a coach for the Brigg Victorias youth team in 1912 as well as captaining the Old Boys team which took on the school in 1914.

In August 1915 the family received the news that the eldest sibling, John Thomas Dunderdale, had been killed in action with the 6th Lincs at Gallipoli, leaving a wife and two children. Joe started teacher training at St Peters College, Peterborough that year but left in November to join 21st KRRC, enlisting at Helmsley on 2nd December.

He was killed in action on 15th September 1916.

His obituary in the Lincolnshire Star reads:

KILLED IN ACTION

We much regret to announce that Rifleman J Neal (sic) of the 21st Batt Kings Royal Rifle Corps has been killed in action in France, his mother, mrs Neal of Morley Yard receiving the official notice yesterday (Friday) afternoon. It will be remembered by his many friends that Rifleman Neal, who was a clever youth, won a scholarship for the Grammar School and at the time of enlisting was at Durham College [newspaper error - his name appears on the memorial at St Peters, Peterborough] where he was training for the teaching profession. He was only 21 years of age on October 16th and his mother had had a large decorated cake made, to send to him to celebrate the occasion, which will not, it is to be regretted, not required (sic). Much sympathy is felt for the mother who has previously lost another son in the Dardenelles, and in addition to that she has another son who was wounded in France, only within a few days of his brother's death, and still another son is serving in Ireland which is, we think, a good record of patriotic service'

The school magazine included the following poem dedicated to Joe and to John Riley Salisbury, another former pupil killed on the Somme.

In Memoriam J.R.S and J.N

BEHOLD the rich green flow'ring fields of wheat,

Clothing the fertile valley slopes, and soon

To yield th' expectant yeoman their rich boon

Of golden grain matured by summer heat!

But far away on hills, where wild goats bleat

Their plaintive protest, broke the storm, which filled

The vale with floods, and swept the fields well tilled

With patient toil, and doomed their prospects sweet.

So these we mourn gave promise, for the years

To come, of richest fruit; but war's mad rage

Destroyed their youth, and turned our hopes to tears

And yet life's crown falls not alone to age,

And years are not the measure of man's life,

But sacrifice and courage in God's strife.

A BRIGGENSIAN.

School football team. Joe is on the middle row, on the far right.

At teacher training in Peterborough. The reverse of the group photo states 'The smokers'

The card he sent to his parents

His photo, worn in a locket by his sister until the day she died.

He left his mark on the school

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz , TT, Mark,

As I have previously stated the first my Dad knew of his uncle Harry was the letter from his aunt.

Unfortunately by the time the letter arrived all of the people who could have confirmed the identity of the person in the photo had passed away.

Looking at Liz's prognosis I have to say that it is very plausible however, did her brother Arthur survive ? If so surely she would know that it was him in the photo.

The mystery grows !!!!

Looks like I now have another Gt Uncle in WW 1 to research !!! I am new to researching family etc and didn't even know I had a Gt Uncle Arthur. Although I did know my Gt Aunt Helena.

Hi Tommo

I sympathise, as like many other people I too had no idea who many of my great-uncles and aunts were and never heard anything about the one who was killed in WW1 until relatively recently. I can't answer your question about Arthur's survival - it is unfortunately a common name and we can't be sure my suggestion is right. I checked the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census records, and MICs, on Ancestry to find out what I did.

What is certain is that Harry Thompson was in the 21/KRRC and killed at Flers; you have his silks and TT has his medals. Perhaps you'll find something out one day to explain the photograph!

Best wishes

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Dave

re Rifleman Joseph Neall

Thank you very much indeed for posting all this information and Joseph's photographs. These personal details and reports from local newspapers bring the whole story alive - wonderful.

Liz

[DaveBrigg]

Can I ask if you have a L/Cpl C Cross somewhere in your data? He is recorded on our town memorial as 21st KRRC, but I can't find him on CWGC. His name may have been added as a later addition, and the stonemason has carved the C and G exactly the same, so it could be G Gross, or a combination of the two. Thanks.

[MBrockway]

Can I ask if you have a L/Cpl C Cross somewhere in your data? He is recorded on our town memorial as 21st KRRC, but I can't find him on CWGC. His name may have been added as a later addition, and the stonemason has carved the C and G exactly the same, so it could be G Gross, or a combination of the two. Thanks.

I have a Rfn Charles Cross, R/7088, 1st Btn, KRRC,

Killed in action on 24 Aug 1918, commemorated on VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL.

Born: West Bedfont, Middx.

Residence: Hatton, Middx.

Death Date: 24 Aug 1918

Death Location: France & Flanders

Enlisted: Hounslow, Middx.

Difficult to see any connection to Brigg though - he looks to be a Londoner through-and-through.

L/Cpls are often listed on CWGC as Rfn.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I haven't come across a 21/KRRC C Cross (or Gross, though Cross seems much more likely). This doesn't mean there isn't one.

I couldn't see one on SDGW or CWGC either, though I noticed Charles Cross, mentioned by Mark.

I have concentrated on 'original Yeomen' in late 1915 -16 here in line with the original intention of this thread, expressed in the now-deleted subtitle,'Looking for friends of Rfn John Thomas Hardcastle' (wounded at Flers and transferred to 2nd battalion), although quite a few later drafts from London and elsewhere have come our way, especially if they were casualties.

But a Lincolnshire man could have been an 'original' recruit.

Liz

[DaveBrigg]

Thanks to you both for looking. I have looked again closely and think that the first initial is 'G'. There are four G Cross KRRC's on the medal roll, none of which are obvious candidates. Given the position on the memorial I suspect that he either died after 1921 or his link to Brigg was fairly tenuous and he was overlooked when the first panels were being erected.

[Chris]

Dave

Try Pte. 12855 Gerald Cross KRRC. His MIC has depot KRRC on it and also 2 Wrawby Street, Brigg. There is also a Gerald Cross born 1885; and died March quarter 1920 in Brigg. Probably one and same but will leave that for you

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

That must be the man - he has a 21/KRRC number C/12855 (that C/ is vital!) according to his MIC, but as it says only KRRC Depot, perhaps he was never fully fit?

Liz

EDIT Typo in enlistment number pointed out by Mark below corrected. The number alone would show a late-ish enlistment, within the recruitment period Sept 1915 - Jan 1916.

Edited 27 November , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Headstone of Gerald Cross in Brigg churchyard here:

http://www.red1st.com/axholme/showmedia.php?mediaID=31422&cemeteryID=195

but it adds no military information.

Liz

[MBrockway]

That must be the man - he has a 21/KRRC number C/12955 (that C/ is vital!) according to his MIC, but as it says only KRRC Depot, perhaps he was never fully fit?

Liz

Liz - the MIC on Ancestry is for a Silver War Badge. Checking the SWB roll gives an enlistment date of 07 Dec 1915, possibly at the tail end of the Derby Scheme.

He was then discharged due to sickness on 06 Mar 1919 and awarded the SWB.

The SWB roll also states he served overseas and the MIC gives roll references for a pair. He was entitled to the British War Medal as soon as he left Blighty and to the Victory Medal as soon as he landed in France. Whether he made it all the way to the front with the Yeoman Rifles will be very difficult to tell.

The SWB roll confirms his Service Number as C/12855, and as you say, the C/ prefix makes all the difference!

For clarity Pals, C/12955 in Liz's post is a typo

Edited 27 November , 2013 by MBrockway

[DaveBrigg]

SUCCESS!! This all seems to fit. Hubert Ashton, who is recorded in the school magazine as being injured in the same attack that Joe Neall was killed, also has KRRC Depot on his medal card. The war memorial was unveiled in June 1919, so he was indeed a later addition - someone must have thought his eventual death was war related.

Finding these details has a particular significance. Gerald is buried across the road from our school, and lived at the edge of Brigg Market Place. Standing in the middle of the market place it is now possible to see the former Mr Denton's butchers, who lost his son when the requisitioned trawler he was on hit a mine, the former drapers whose son signed up under age and died at Passchendaele, the inn (now a library) home to the parents of a 17 yr old who died with the mercantile marine, the tobacconists whose son died with the 6th Lincs at Gallipoli, the chemist who lost their RAMC only son to bombing of a Casualty Clearing Station, the site of the hardware store whose owners lost their Lincs Regt son when his trench mortar battery was overrun, the hairdresser next door who lost their son with the East Yorks the next day, and now the Cross family.

The school are working with the town council on a memorial project for Remembrance Day 2014, when all these locations will be marked and a heritage trail set up to share with the current residents the unimaginable grief which must have hit the town during those few years.

Many thanks for the help given above, which adds those precious details to turn a name into a person.

[MBrockway]

Dave - what an absolutely excellent project. Being able to contribute to such admirable endeavours is one of the main reasons I'm on this forum.

Marvellous!

Mark

[David_Underdown]

Sounds like Cross could be a non-commemoration, it may be worth starting a separate thread for him in the Possible non-commemorations subforum, where someone from the In From the Cold Project should be able to advise further. Essentially it is necessary to show a link between his discharge from the army and his cause of death. It's easier if the service record survives, or if the Silver War Badge list gives some detail as to the reason for his discharge (beyond Wounded or Sick), but the death certificate is required anyway, and depending on the cause of death given may be sufficient on its own. Obviously you have to pay for the death certificate, but IFCP can refund that if the case appears good (you can be unlucky and find it was down to Spanish flu or the proverbial being hit by a tram).

[DaveBrigg]

Good idea David. I'll try to look into it.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks very much, Dave, Chris, Mark and David.

I am a week late in posting a photograph of B Company, No 5 Platoon, that Tommo kindly gave me permission to place here: it's a postcard his father picked up at a sale so not directly connected with Tommo's great-uncle, who I think was more likely to have been in A Company as he enlisted in Goole (East Riding), but might have been in B Company on account of his family's move to Bradford (West Riding).

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[Liz in Eastbourne]

The frustrating aspect of this photograph is that like most of them it has no names on it. It is one of the photographs taken by F.Scovell at Aldershot (like the officer group, 'Countess' and B Coy 7 Platoon photographs already posted) for which, luckily, we have names. I feel I should be able to get the name of the officer commanding 5 Platoon and to try to do this have zoomed in on him:

 

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne

[MBrockway]

The battalion was at Aldershot from 24 Jan 1916 to 04 May 1916 when they left for France. That may help to narrow it down.

(Aside - Liz: not suggesting you don't know this, it's aimed at helping other readers.)

Most of the other battalions list the officers on embarkation. Unfortunately not the Yeoman Rifles.

By the time of the attack on BAYONET TRENCH on 07 Oct 1916, the 1917 KRRC Chronicle states ...

"Of only two officers, Captain R.C. Burton was badly wounded and 2nd Lieut. Anderson was killed, ... "

Our man is a full Lieutenant, so is neither of these men.

The rest of the company's officers had been killed or wounded at the action on 15 Sep 1916.