21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[tommo21]

WOW, VERY EMMOTIONAL SEEING THE PHOTO. WISH MY DAD WAS STILL AROUND TO SEE IT. THANKS LIZ.

[trenchtrotter]

Tommo21 have deleted some previous Psm as I was over quota! Please try again.

TT

[tommo21]

I have a photo of "H" Harry Thompson C/12149, can anyone give me advice on how to attach it to this thread ?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I was advised to put my photographs on a hosting site so that I could get them on here via a link, avoiding problems with forum limits on the size of files. Photobucket, which is free, has worked well and if I can manage it anyone can, but of course it takes a bit of time to get it sorted out at first.

Alternatively you could send it via e-mail to one of us to do it - I'll pm you.

Liz

[MBrockway]

I was advised to put my photographs on a hosting site so that I could get them on here via a link, avoiding problems with forum limits on the size of files. Photobucket, which is free, has worked well and if I can manage it anyone can, but of course it takes a bit of time to get it sorted out at first.

Alternatively you could send it via e-mail to one of us to do it - I'll pm you.

Liz

Liz - if you want me to compress Tommo's photo so it can be uploaded to the forum instead of Photobucket, then mail me (via e-mail, not PM - my PM Inbox fills up faster than I can read them) ... with Tommo's permission of course.

Cheers,

Mark

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Here is the photograph of Harry Thompson, with kind permission of Tommo.

 

EDIT January 2019  i have deleted this photo, which was not in fact of Harry Thompson, whose photo  along with those of other family members can be seen  on this thread.

 

 

 

Edited 21 January , 2019 by Liz in Eastbourne
Remove photo

[Liz in Eastbourne]

And here are two pictures, a close up of the top part of the 'silks' and then the picture next to the 'silks'. I must confess I had no clear idea about what this was when you first mentioned it, Tommo. It is interesting that the family knew the date of his death at Flers was 15 September when the official sources persisted in putting '17 September'. Thank you very much for letting us see this sad family remembrance of a rifleman who left them 'in a foreign land to die'.

 

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I forgot to supply a link to Mark's enlargement of the 'Countess' photograph. Looking at it I do still wonder if this shows the same H. Thompson.

As I mentioned, most of the men are from Helmsley or villages very close by such as Ampleforth and Oswaldkirk. The transport officer G Potter in front was not even a Yorkshireman but seems to have become close to Charlie Duncombe/ the new Earl of Feversham, CO of the battalion, in the Yorkshire Hussars. But I haven't found another rifleman from as far away as Goole or Bradford. I really need to check the medal rolls at Kew to see if there was another H Thompson(who would have survived, as there isn't another H Thompson who died).

But what do you think, Tommo? Or others, now we have this photograph to compare? Does that look like the same man?

EDIT Third row from back or front, second man from the left.

EDIT AGAIN Hold on, folks - Tommo has sent me much better versions of these photos, which I will substitute.

EDIT AGAIN Done. I left the original version of the 'silks' picture, Tommo, as it has the lower part with the poem.

Liz

Edited 20 November , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne

[tommo21]

Liz,

looking closely at the group photo, like you I don't think that it "H" (Third row from back or front, second man from the left).

The soldier in the picture looks slimmer and not as stocky.

However the photo of "H" has obviously been "touched up " and so may not be a true representation.

I would love to think that it is him but my heart says it isnt.

Interestingly the group photo is similar to one in the Liddle collection we discussed in our PM (but without names on).

For other members of the group there is a collection of Yeoman Rifles documents (trench maps, photo's & invite to reunions at Helmsley) in the Liddle collection in Leeds University Library.

http://brs.leeds.ac.uk

search collections, liddle collection , WW1.

I did visit about ten years ago and found it very interesting but unfortunately it was before the age of digital cameras etc.

From the collection I did get a contact Michael Hickes (who I believe was a close friend of Dennis Gerard) and may have helped him write his book.

Michael told me (early 2003) that the relatives and friends of the "Yeoman Rifles" met in the square at Helmsley on the 1st Sunday in Sept every year.

I went with my Mum & Dad on the 1st Sun in Sept 2003 and sat in the sun opposite the memorial all day (nice & sunny and Ice Cream !!).

Unfortunately no body turned up.

i rang Micheal later who told me that he was not well and so had not organised the reunion that year but that he did intend to do so for following years.

I didn't hear from Michael again but got the feeling that he was not very well.

He did tell me that he had in his poccession more of D Gerards Yeaoman rifles photo's, docs etc.

I will try to find Micheals details (i think he lived in Whitby), I will keep you posted.

[trenchtrotter]

A lovely image of Harry, however, and please I have no reason to doubt the ID, but the soldier shown certainly is not wearing KRR uniform. The buttons are brass GS ones and not black horn rifles pattern and the shoulder title appears to be W York?

Did he serve in another unit before the KRR (the unit he was with whn he died)?

TT

[trenchtrotter]

For reference...Helmsley, taken from mobile hence poor quality.

TT

.

[MBrockway]

For reference...Helmsley, taken from mobile hence poor quality.

TT

As per link in Post #21 higher up reproduced in full below for convenience. The Streetview link is worth checking out too - you can take a wander off around the Helmsley market place!

Mark

Pals,

Pal shinglma has posted a photo of the 21/KRRC Memorial at Helmsley here:

Mike Shingleton's photo in Kings Royal Rifle Corps

I later added a Google StreetView link to the Memorial further down the same Topic, but I'll repeat that link in here direct:

Helmsley Yeoman Rifles memorial in Google StreetView

In this specific view, the memorial tablet sits on a picture boundary, so there's a slice out of the centre missing, but if you move about, you'll get a views of the whole tablet from further back.

That whole Topic is worth reading for those Rifles Family members interested in 21/KRRC as well as the other KRRC btns invloved in Flers, and it's currently not likely to be detected using the built-in GWF search engine :

Kings Royal Rifle Corps

As is also this one:

Baileyjack's Looking for further information Rfn Frank Arnold, 21st [Yeoman Rifles]Kings Royal Rifle Corps

You'll find a lot of further background to this excellent unit there

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

A lovely image of Harry, however, and please I have no reason to doubt the ID, but the soldier shown certainly is not wearing KRR uniform. The buttons are brass GS ones and not black horn rifles pattern and the shoulder title appears to be W York?

Did he serve in another unit before the KRR (the unit he was with whn he died)?

TT

My thoughts also, though based only on the shoulder titles.

Brass GS buttons were occasionally worn by riflemen, so that on its own would not rule out KRRC. The principle I usually follow is that presence of black buttons is strong evidence of the man being a rifleman, but absence of same is not proof he is not.

Tommo - do you have any other relatives who may have served in a line infantry regiment?

[MBrockway]

Enlargement of ST ...

I have never, ever seen a curved KRRC metal shoulder title.

I cannot make this one out 100%, but the final letters could well be 'ORK'

[tommo21]

TT, Mark,

The photo & silks were sent to my Dad around 2000 by his aunt ("H" s sister).

In her letter she told my Dad that the photo was of his Uncle (Fathers brother) who was killed in the 1st WW and that she had kept the Photo & silks in her bible for many years.

She also said that my Dad was named after his Uncle (my Dad was not aware of this) and that he joined the Army in Goole.

My dad said that no one every spoke of his uncle.

Unfortunately there is no one alive who can offer any more info.

All I can confirm is :-

• The Photo is deffinately my Dads uncle.
• His silks say K.R.Rifles.
• They give Fleurs as the place of death.
• They give September 15th 1916 as the date.
• Liz has said thet he enlisted KRRC in Goole.

Unless he joined another unfantry unit and then joined the KRRC I can't explain the buttons, shoulder badge.

Tommo.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Tommo

Your great-uncle was clearly Rifleman C/12149, the query is just about that photograph and the uniform - as Mark says, the shoulder title rather than the buttons though they do combine to say this man wasn't in the KRRC at the time. I've come across very few Yeoman Riflemen of the originals recruited in late 1915 who had been in any other regiment. (Officers excepted, of course.) The whole point was to get men who had not otherwise joined up, especially (but certainly not exclusively) farmers and men from related rural occupations. SDGW says he enlisted at Goole and his Medal Index Card gives no other regiment (this is not conclusive).

Your aunt's letter is what links the photo to the silks, which are indisputably his, and as she was his sister she ought to have known if that was him or not. So it's a bit of a mystery.

Regardless of that, I don't think it was him on the 'Countess' photograph simply on grounds of his places of origin and residence, unless compelling evidence contradicts that assumption.

EDIT It is also not him in this photograph, see  Edit to #356 above.

Btw it's 'Flers', odd though it may seem - though Flyers and Fleurs are nice alternatives! (Predictive help being less than helpful?)

Liz

Edited 18 January , 2019 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

As per link in Post #21 higher up reproduced in full below for convenience. The Streetview link is worth checking out too - you can take a wander off around the Helmsley market place!

Mark

Yes! and since then, this summer, I finally went and looked round Helmsley and Duncombe Park grounds (the house being no longer open to visitors). I could easily imagine the riflemen training in those grounds, they are so extensive and relatively ungardened, but there's no reference to them anywhere in the small Visitor Centre.

Liz

[DaveBrigg]

I can provide quite a lot of information and pictures about another 21st Bn man, Joseph Neall from Brigg, Lincolnshire. C/12837. He was from quite a large family but was the only one to attend the Grammar school. He was a keen sportsman, playing in the school football team and organising the Old Boys after he left. After leaving school he attended St Peters College in Peterborough to start teacher training but left in November 1915 to join the KRRC at Helmsley. From reading your posts it looks like he would have gone into D Company alongside the other Lincolnshire men. His enlistment may have been prompted by his good friend Hubert Ashton also dropping out of teacher training to join the KRRC ( C/12582), although Joe's older step-brother had been killed at Gallipoli that August. He was killed at Flers a few days before his 21st birthday; his mother had already baked a cake to send out. His records are on Ancestry.

Ashton I believe was wounded and taken prisoner in the same battle. I'll try to post a picture tomorrow, but if you want any more detail (or can add anything) please let me know. At some point he carved his name into the stonework of our school and it can still be seen if you know where to look.

[MBrockway]

Extremely interested Dave - the more Yeoman Rifles info here the better. Pictures would be great.

Cheers,

Mark

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I can provide quite a lot of information and pictures about another 21st Bn man, Joseph Neall from Brigg, Lincolnshire. C/12837. He was from quite a large family but was the only one to attend the Grammar school. He was a keen sportsman, playing in the school football team and organising the Old Boys after he left. After leaving school he attended St Peters College in Peterborough to start teacher training but left in November 1915 to join the KRRC at Helmsley. From reading your posts it looks like he would have gone into D Company alongside the other Lincolnshire men. His enlistment may have been prompted by his good friend Hubert Ashton also dropping out of teacher training to join the KRRC ( C/12582), although Joe's older step-brother had been killed at Gallipoli that August. He was killed at Flers a few days before his 21st birthday; his mother had already baked a cake to send out. His records are on Ancestry.

Ashton I believe was wounded and taken prisoner in the same battle. I'll try to post a picture tomorrow, but if you want any more detail (or can add anything) please let me know. At some point he carved his name into the stonework of our school and it can still be seen if you know where to look.

I would be very interested Dave, and thanks for those details - as I have mentioned to Tommo, who has given me another super picture to post, I am not going to have time for the forum during the day today so this is just a quick reply to say I have Joseph Neall on my file and had noted census details and that his medical and clean conduct forms confirm what we'd expect, that he was in D Company. EDIT I also noted that his conduct sheet was initially signed by RC Robinson, helpfully confirming where that young officer was at the outset, though he didn't stay long with the battalion. I haven't got anything on Hubert Ashton, probably because he survived - my records at present are skewed towards those killed in 1916.

There were quite a few student teachers in the battalion. Gerald Dennis and friends were, but from Hull.

Liz

Edited 21 November , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne

[trenchtrotter]

Here are Harrys medals. Each medal is impressed as follows on the rim........

C-12149 PTE. H.THOMPSON. K.R.RIF.C. They are in NEF condition. The ribbons are modern replacements. Unfortunately I dont have his memorial plaque and scroll.

Hope the picture is not too "flashed" out.

Regards

TT

[tommo21]

TT WOW thanks for the photo it brought a lump to my throat wish Dad was still around to see them think there would have been a little tear !! Thanks very much appreciated. TOMMO.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, TT.

Tommo, I've taken the liberty of putting a request for help on the uniforms section, with a link to your photograph - I am sure someone will be able to identify that shoulder title. The enlargement Mark's posted isn't clear enough - don't know if it can be improved? - but on your original it looks to me as if it ends 'ONY' or ONV' which ring no bells at all.

i haven't forgotten the photograph! Will post it tomorrow.

Liz

[Old Owl]

Thanks, TT.

Tommo, I've taken the liberty of putting a request for help on the uniforms section, with a link to your photograph - I am sure someone will be able to identify that shoulder title. The enlargement Mark's posted isn't clear enough - don't know if it can be improved? - but on your original it looks to me as if it ends 'ONY' or ONV' which ring no bells at all.

i haven't forgotten the photograph! Will post it tomorrow.

Liz

Hi Liz,

I am almost certain that the shoulder title is 'W.YORK' or West Yorkshire Regt in long-hand.

Robert

[tommo21]

LIZ thought you were having a rest from the forum !!! In a PM today with TT I asked if it was possible that H borrowed a uniform to have a photo taken before he was kitted out with his KRRC uniform ?

Maybe he wanted his mum to have a photo of him in uniform as she was moving from Goole to Bradford ??? I am confident that the photo is H (he looks like my grandad, his brother) but the uniform is a mystery !!

Tommo.