Guest Denise75 Posted 27 May , 2014 Share Posted 27 May , 2014 Hi, I'm new to the forum as I recently found a postcard that gerald john lloyd burton wrote to his sibling lettice Amelia burton whilst he was in France in 1914. My plan is to return the postcard to Gerald's family for the centenary and I was wondering if anyone knows or knew of any descendants? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 27 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2014 Hello Denise, and welcome to the forum. Gerald Burton's great-nephew came on to this thread two years ago (see here) and we had some email correspondence afterwards. I'm sure he would be interested. I will alert him to your post. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burton2 Posted 4 June , 2014 Share Posted 4 June , 2014 Hi, I'm new to the forum as I recently found a postcard that gerald john lloyd burton wrote to his sibling lettice Amelia burton whilst he was in France in 1914. My plan is to return the postcard to Gerald's family for the centenary and I was wondering if anyone knows or knew of any descendants? Thanks. How extraordinary that you should have this post-card, Denise! I wonder where you found it? Great uncle Gerald & great aunt Lettice were my grandfather's siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Denise75 Posted 5 June , 2014 Share Posted 5 June , 2014 Hi, This is great!! I found it at Imphal barracks, york and would love to return it to you and your family! Do you happen to live in North Yorkshire? I'm in pickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 7 June , 2014 Share Posted 7 June , 2014 If the post card does return as above, Then Liz this excellent thread has led to two returns....Harry Thompsons medals and the above. Remarkable!!!! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burton2 Posted 9 June , 2014 Share Posted 9 June , 2014 The post card has returned which is indeed remarkable TT! Thank you Denise. It was written 'On Active Service' on 13 October 1914 and shows a group of twenty eight company officers and NCOs wearing what look like HAC infantry cap-badges. Gerald Burton appears in it as a corporal. I had no idea he was ever in the HAC or in France/Flanders so early in the war, and guess he must have transferred to 21 KRRC on being commissioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 9 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2014 (edited) So glad to hear the postcard has been returned to the family thanks to Denise. Yes, we knew Gerald Lloyd Burton was in the HAC in 1914 from his Medal Index Card, and went to France on 18 Sept 1914, so I knew if the postcard was from France in 1914 it would be when he was in the HAC. The Yeoman Rifles (21/KRRC) were not raised until the end of 1915 and went to France in May 1916. See the biography I did of him earlier. Burton was then commissioned into the 7th Bn, Lincolnshire Regiment before being seconded to the Yeoman Rifles (EDIT Sorry, I had a momentary lapse there and put Leicestershire - which was the other Burton, Claud, who was confused with this one several times in the notes to Gerald V. Dennis's book) Yes TT, it has been very pleasing to have two such reunions as a result of this thread - and of course of the generosity of those who acquired the medals and postcard. Liz Edited 9 June , 2014 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burton2 Posted 9 June , 2014 Share Posted 9 June , 2014 My apologies for not having digested the contents of the excellent biography you did of GB earlier, especially as I must have read it on joining this forum. That said I'm pleased I identified the cap-badge correctly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 11 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2014 My apologies for not having digested the contents of the excellent biography you did of GB earlier, especially as I must have read it on joining this forum. That said I'm pleased I identified the cap-badge correctly! Yes, that was very impressive! If it's any consolation I had to check the biography myself and still got mixed up with my own notes as to whether he was in the Lincolnshire or Leicestershire Regiment before the 21/KRRC. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox29 Posted 29 July , 2014 Share Posted 29 July , 2014 Liz I have found your various posts on John Thomas Hardcastle very interesting whilst researching my husband's Great Uncle. I think have some information to add to the jigsaw but will need your assistance to prove this first. Fiona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 30 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2014 Liz I have found your various posts on John Thomas Hardcastle very interesting whilst researching my husband's Great Uncle. I think have some information to add to the jigsaw but will need your assistance to prove this first. Fiona Hello Fiona Welcome to the forum! This sounds intriguing. If you mean assistance re family information specifically concerning John Thomas Hardcastle, you can send me a private message. Just hover over my forum name at the top left of the message and you should see an info panel - click on 'send me a message'. If it's more general then do tell us on the thread what you have, so that others can contribute and/or benefit. I've been taking a break from 21/KRRC for a while as I have a pressing commitment to produce some other work relating to local names on a memorial here in Eastbourne (which would seem a long way from 21/KRRC except that I found two important Yeoman Rifles characters earlier in this thread, one who started off here and the other who ended up here!) But I have several files of stuff on 21/KRRC, much of it not yet put on here, so I'll do my best. Liz PS Thanks, Mark, for your offer of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox29 Posted 30 July , 2014 Share Posted 30 July , 2014 Thanks both for your interest. This is a bit of both family and to contribute. Liz hopefully I have PM'd you. I'm very much a novice on forums - more skilled in searching! Fiona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 30 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2014 Yes, you have, Fiona, and I have replied. When we've sorted a few details out we should be able to post some useful information! Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue somerset Posted 3 August , 2014 Share Posted 3 August , 2014 Hi All, Another newbie to add! I am researching my grandfather, C12846, Sergeant William Edward Kenington, who enlisted in the KRRC with his great friend Thomas Douglas Newmarch (C 12742) 21st Battalion. I have his original typed copy of a chapter he appeared to write for a book "memories of the Yeoman rifles" along with correspondence from Philip Brooksbank. In their correspondence they mention Huddleston and Rushworth and list the names of the other soldiers who were contributing to the book. I also have his copies of the reunion dinners menus (signed by all who attended) for 1936/1938 and 1949. I also have a copy of the painting I have of the Somme painted by T D Newmarch which hung in my granddads bedroom till the day he died, and is now treasured by the rest of us. I hope this may be of interest to people, but as a bit of a computer plonker, I'm not sure how to insert it into this message!! Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 3 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2014 Wow - Sue, this certainly is of interest, to me and to others I am sure. I would love to see EVERYTHING you have, especially the chapter and correspondence! This project is mentioned by Gerald Dennis at the end of his book A Kitchener Man's Bit, where he is describing their trip back to France in 1928 :"During our walk, Captain P. Brooksbank asked me to write a few reminiscences for himas he was collecting genuine 'scraps' from the men of the old Battalion in order to form 'a living and human account of the Yeoman Rifles in the Great War'. I promised to see what I could do in the coming winter months. I failed him in this respect.- I spent my leisure time that winter writing all that I could remember of my 'bit'." I haven't got either your grandfather or his friend in my records - it's always easier to find casualties, of course, unless relatives contribute as you have done. You'll have seen the picture and account of Philip Brooksbank earlier in this thread. I am somewhat overwhelmed as I'm still trying to decide which of the men in two photographs Fiona has, are the man who inspired this thread, John Thomas Hardcastle. And there is a lot of other material I have not yet put on the thread. If you wouldn't mind contacting me by private message (instructions in post above) we can discuss the best way for you to post this material if you are willing. Oh and by the way, welcome to the forum! Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 3 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2014 I forgot to ask, Sue, did the men who signed the dinner menus put their service numbers on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 3 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2014 Another PS Sue before I go out - I was mistaken in saying I didn't have anything on Newmarch, but I had just found his MIC after seeing this note in G. V. Dennis (supplied by his editor, Michael Hickes), which you probably know: 'Newmarch, Duggie -home was North Cave, near Market Weighton. As an artist, he attended reunions regularly, providing many very humorous cartoons to decorate the annual guest list/menu. His memoirs are deposted with the Liddle Collection, University of Leeds.' There are a number of references in the main text to him. (I still haven't made it to look at the YRs material in Leeds.) and 'Ken(n)nington, Mick (sgt)- his family lived at 93 de Grey Street, Hull, where they ran a laundry; his brother worked at the Spa Ballroom, Bridlington, GVD said.' I guess this is your grandfather, though the nickname isn't an obvious one for a William Edward? There is one mention in the main text on p 218, about the end of the battalion in March 1918. "Months later I heard that one of my great friends of 'C' Company, Sgt Mick Kenington, had been sent to the 1st Bn. He was welcomed with 'What battalion are you from?' When he replied 'The 21st, Sir' he was told 'I've never heard of it and now you will have to forget all you learned with it. You are going to be a real soldier from now on.'" Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 There is one mention in the main text on p 218, about the end of the battalion in March 1918. "Months later I heard that one of my great friends of 'C' Company, Sgt Mick Kenington, had been sent to the 1st Bn. He was welcomed with 'What battalion are you from?' When he replied 'The 21st, Sir' he was told 'I've never heard of it and now you will have to forget all you learned with it. You are going to be a real soldier from now on.'" Liz 1/KRRC received a draft of 63 men from 21st battalion on 20 Mar 1918. A draft of 58 men had arrived on 17 Mar 1918, but neither the War Diary, nor the KRRC Chronicle are clear on whether this draft was from 21/KRRC, or a draft of fresh recruits on their first time out. 1/KRRC had experienced heavy losses shortly before in a gas attack. Accordingly the whole battalion was re-organised with all the 21st battalion men kept together to form the new 'C' coy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox29 Posted 4 August , 2014 Share Posted 4 August , 2014 Liz and I have been looking at one of the photographs I have found and need help to identify if this photograph is also of No. 5 Platoon. This one looks like it was taken in France and Liz (thanks Liz) thinks probably between May 1916 and Sept 1916. We're not sure if this also has Meysey-Thompson on. If it is then some of men should be on both the earlier picture on this thread and also on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 5 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2014 (edited) Thanks, Fiona. I may be quite wrong but it's worth trying. Here is Tommo's picture we discussed on p 16 of this thread Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne Re-insert photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 5 August , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2014 Just for clarification, this thread started as my quest for 'friends of Rifleman John Thomas Hardcastle' - the subtitle was deleted by the forum update a couple of years ago but my original post explains that he was my great-aunt's fiance, a Yorkshire farmer. He was Fiona's husband's great-uncle, so she is also looking for information on him, with the great advantage of two wartime photographs and another that may help identify him. I found out a huge amount about the 21st Bn of which the thread is now just the tip of the iceberg, but nothing directly about his own time in the 21st Bn (he was transferred to the 2nd Bn after being badly wounded at Flers) except by extrapolation. He was almost certainly in B Company, being from the West Riding (just!) and a fairly early recruit. He almost certainly wasn't in Philip Brooksbank's 7 Platoon, because he isn't on their photo. I thought he was most likely to be in Meysey-Thompson's platoon because he (M-T) was the nephew of Baron Knaresborough, not far from Mulwith nr Ripon where the Hardcastles farmed, and JTH enlisted at Ripon. In the beginning officers did tend to have men from their own area in their platoons, and though M-T was a London lawyer, his family affiliation was to that part of Yorkshire. I thought M-T was the officer on the 5 Platoon photo because he isn't on the main officer photo and the officer in the middle is also not someone on that photo, as I explained previously. M -T was the senior subaltern in B Company, which may also support the assumption that he was in command of 5 Platoon. Now here we have a much more relaxed photo evidently taken in France, as Fiona tells me it has a French postcard back and in any case that sunshine is not Helmsley in December - January and unlikely to be Aldershot February - May. It must be from May-mid Sept 1915 because the Bn went to France in early May and its original form was shattered by the action at Flers on 15 Sept, after which Hardcastle was no longer with the Bn. There is no other KRRC association in the family so there is no real doubt that this is the 21st Bn, and Hardcastle's platoon. It is very unlikely that he ever had the chance to develop the sort of camaraderie suggested here with the 2nd Bn, where he spent his last few months in 1917, mainly in Belgium, or that he felt like sending whole group photos home from his new battalion - I'd rule that out. But I find it quite hard to compare the faces on the two photos, onscreen. Is the officer in the relaxed pose at the front of the group in France the same man in the centre of the Aldershot group? Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 August , 2014 Share Posted 5 August , 2014 group2001web.jpg Liz and I have been looking at one of the photographs I have found and need help to identify if this photograph is also of No. 5 Platoon. This one looks like it was taken in France and Liz (thanks Liz) thinks probably between May 1916 and Sept 1916. We're not sure if this also has Meysey-Thompson on. If it is then some of men should be on both the earlier picture on this thread and also on this one. I'm seeing ... two officers without cuff rank a serjeant (possibly a CSM) with Musketry skill at arms badge and two wound stripes on left cuff (see left crop below) rifleman on the right hand end of the first standing rank has one wound stripe and possibly a LSGC chevron (see right crop below - right hand edge) rifleman sitting at right hand end of front row possibly has a LSGC chevron (see right crop below - bottom left edge) possibly a few March 1916 soft service caps, but these could also be well broken down SD caps - see lower crop below - the stitch lines on peak and band are clearly visible wooden board held in the centre probably has the unit name chalked on it - graphics tool jiggery-pokery has so far failed to reveal any writing :-( EDIT I'm not 100% certain of the LSGC chevrons. In the crop above, I've darkened the image and increased the contrast, which makes the possible chevrons stand out a little more. If they are indeed LSGC chevrons, then that may give us a 'No Earlier Than' date. One LSGC chevron would indicate two year's unblemished service, so for the original establishment of the Yeoman Rifles that would be Nov 1917. Of course, any riflemen transferred into 21/KRRC who had enlisted into another battalion earlier than Nov 1915, would be entitled to the badge earlier. Certainly the vast majority of these men do NOT appear to have LSGC chevrons. I might be able to lift any writing off the wooden board using my graphics software tools if I had a better resolution image. In the version posted, I can get a hint of lettering with my graphics tools, but the resolution is so low, i cannot be sure. Same applies for the LSGC chevrons. Liz has my e-mail address. EDIT - no joy on this so far even on the original :-( Mark EDIT: following arrival of a better resolution version of the photo from Fiona, I have replaced the crops above and made some in-line edits to the original text. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox29 Posted 5 August , 2014 Share Posted 5 August , 2014 Mark My first thought on finding the picture was that it was a name board - however, on my higher resolution image it appears to be a box but I can't pick out any lettering. I will let you have a copy of the larger resolution image. Fiona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 August , 2014 Share Posted 5 August , 2014 (edited) Mark My first thought on finding the picture was that it was a name board - however, on my higher resolution image it appears to be a box but I can't pick out any lettering. I will let you have a copy of the larger resolution image. Fiona Yes - I reckon it's the bottom of a wooden stores crate. EDIT: sadly my imaging tools have failed to reveal any lettering so far ... Though the Musketry Skill At Arms badge shows up nicely! Edited 6 August , 2014 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 6 August , 2014 Share Posted 6 August , 2014 At Liz's suggestion, here are the two officers from Fiona's photo with the officer from the Aldershot 5 Platoon formal group alongside ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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