Stebie9173 Posted 24 September , 2017 Share Posted 24 September , 2017 The medal roll shows only service with 21st Battalion. The M.M. is noted as (M.M.) against his name but scrubbed out as is normal on most BWM/VM rolls I have seen. There is no entitlement to a Star. I would personally have put the action at Flers on 15 September 1916 in the frame as well. If Dennison was killed at Gird Trench then that would probably make it less likely to earn an M.M. there as they were not generally awarded posthumously. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 September , 2017 Share Posted 24 September , 2017 Good point Steve - thanks also for the medal roll check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 24 September , 2017 Share Posted 24 September , 2017 I quick look at the Silver War Badge rolls shows the following enlistment dates: R/16050 - 28 October 1915 R/16057 - 25 October 1915 R/16075 - 26 October 1915 So one would imagine that the men joining at this time would be embarking for overseas service in the spring of 1916 or thereabouts. For example, R/16040 Rifleman Henry Head embarked to France to 10th Battalion via training with 14th Battalion and 20th Infantry Base Depot at Etaples on 16 March 1916. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 24 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2017 Thanks, both. Steve, if that series of numbers is indicative, Rfm Day could have been with the Yeoman Rifles from before their departure to France in early May 1916, and could have trained with them from the beginning - doesn't it? The medal roll doesn't always show training battalions though, does it, so I suppose he could also have joined in France after training elsewhere. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Clarke Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Thank you everyone. We believe that the M.M was awarded for action at Flers-Courcelette, but that is only from husbands knowledge being army veteran and doing some detective work ourselves and piecing things together. Sadly I dont know any history. My mum was 3 when he died and it seems grandma never spoke about. We would love to know where his M.M went but again lost in time. We also understand that the 21st went to Passchendaele where I am taking part in a short remembrance walk of 25km. RIP all our brave ancestors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 27 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) Hello again, Eileen. If your belief that he was awarded the MM for the action at Flers-Courcelette is based on later deduction rather than specific information it could have been the action three weeks later at Gird Ridge - but as Steve says, it could have been Flers. Without more information, we don't know. You didn't say where your grandfather came from. Even though he didn't have an original YR number, he could have joined them early on, especially if he was a northerner. After they reached France and Flanders men were sent from all over to replace their losses. I don't know if you've managed to read this long thread, or search the forum for the actions the battalion were in,. but there's quite a bit of information here. Eden left after Messines and Dennis managed to miss quite a bit of the action the 21st Bn took part in during Third Ypres (,Passchendaele) so they aren't so much use on this, but they were at Pilckem Ridge and Menin Road Ridge. Liz Edited 27 September , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 With respect to the Flers vs. Gird Trench MM conundrum, I've looked into the other KRRC MM recipients in that same London Gazette issue who have Service Numbers in the standard Yeoman Rifles C/12xxx range. I was hoping to identify a casualty who had died between Flers and the Gird Trench action, i.e. between 15 Sep and 06 Oct 1916, which would lend support to these MM's being related to Flers rather than Gird Trench. I specifically checked two things: BWM&VM roll: for service outside 21/KRCC Soldiers Died in the Great War: whether fallen and, if so, date Results inconclusive unfortunately - see list below. With her greater knowledge of the Yeoman Rifles sources, Liz might be able to use this list to cast light on the puzzle perhaps? While keeping an open mind as to Flers vs. Gird Trench, we should remember that Captain Sheardown's MC was definitely awarded for the 07-10 Oct Gird Trench action (as per the 21/KRRC Battalion War Record in the 1917 KRRC Chronicle) and this was in the London Gazette published 11 Dec 1916 ... https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29859/supplement/12107/data.htm MC's are not MM's of course and perhaps the lead time for the MM would be longer, so even this coincidence of dates in inconclusive: it could be interpreted as supporting the MM's in the 09 Dec 1916 LG dating back to Flers, and, as Steve has said, MM's were not usually awarded posthumously. C/12980 ALEXANDER, Rfn Charles N. BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only C/12843 BONE, L/Cpl H.W. BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only C/12026 CARMICHAEL, Sjt Norman BWM Roll: not in sequence - MIC shows 21/KRRC, then transfer to 104391 Tank Corps/MGC (Heavy Branch), then commission in Tank Corps 27 Jul 1917 C/12823 DENISON, L/Cpl Thomas W. BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only SDGW: KiA 10 Oct 1916 C/12555 FARRER, Rfn Atheling BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only SDGW: DoW 10 Oct 1916 C/12805 HANWELL, L/Cpl H. BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only C/12647 JESSOP, A/Cpl Robert W. BWM Roll: not in sequence - MIC shows Serjeant 12647 KRRC, then transfer to 75500 Tank Corps C/12330 KAYE, L/Cpl George W. BWM Roll: not in sequence - MIC shows C/12330 KRRC, then transfer to 16669 Army Pay Corps C/12631 MILLER, L/Sjt Frank J. BWM Roll: not in sequence - MIC shows C/12631 KRRC Embarkation Date April 1916, then commission in MGC (no date) C/12204 PECKET, L/Cpl Henry C. BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only C/12681 SIMONS, Rfn Percy BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only SDGW: DoW 10 Oct 1916 C/12938 SMITH, Rfn Walter BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only, then to Commission 26 Mar 1918 C/12892 SUNDERLAND, Rfn Walter BWM Roll: 21/KRRC only, then to Commission 30 Sep 1917 Notes 1. Liz has already pointed out that the dates of death for both Flers and the Gird Trench action are generalised to a single day - for Gird trench it's usually 10 Oct 1916. Some of these men may have died as early as 07 Oct. 2. Several men were not in the main service number sequence in the KRRC British War Medal & Victory Medal roll. Checking their MIC's shows they each transferred out of the regiment and are on other units' rolls. Although not directly pertinent to our puzzle, I've added detail above for general Yeoman Rifles interest. It is pretty clear all these men survived past Oct 1916. 3. As R/16056 Sjt Day shows us, there were lots of riflemen in 21/KRRC who did not have the 'standard' C/12xxx service number. If I get time, I'll go through ALL the KRRC men in this LG MM list to check for 21/KRRC men with non C/12xxx service numbers, but that is a big job and I may not get to it. Even if I do, I cannot 100% complete it as my set of medal rolls is incomplete - I don't have the volume that includes R/16056 for example Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Williamson in his Great War Medal Collector's Companion states that the 09 Dec 1916 LG Military Medal issue covers gallantry in actions on The Somme between 09 Sep and 12 Oct 1916, with a small number of retrospective awards for Ypres 1915 and the first of the Salonika MM's. Again, no further forward on the Flers vs. Gird Trench conundrum. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Clarke Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 5 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said: Hello again, Eileen. If your belief that he was awarded the MM for the action at Flers-Courcelette is based on later deduction rather than specific information it could have been the action three weeks later at Gird Ridge - but as Steve says, it could have been Flers. Without more information, we don't know. You didn't say where your grandfather came from. Even though he didn't have an original YR number, he could have joined them early on, especially if he was a northerner. After they reached France and Flanders men were sent from all over to replace their losses. I don't know if you've managed to read this long thread, or search the forum for the actions the battalion were in,. but there's quite a bit of information here. Eden left after Messines and Dennis manged to miss quite a bit of the action the 21st Bn took part in during Third Ypres (,Passchendaele) so they aren't so much use on this, but they were at Pilckem Ridge and Menin Road Ridge. Liz Hi Liz, sorry grandad was from West Ham, Essex even though many seemed to vome from the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 27 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eileen Clarke said: Hi Liz, sorry grandad was from West Ham, Essex even though many seemed to vome from the north. Just wondered. The 'originals' were almost all northerners - it was a northern battalion (see start of thread) but particularly after Flers there was a great influx of men from the London area, who were immediately thrown into the next action variously referred to as Gird Ridge and Gird Trench) in early October. Mark, sorry I can't give the list attention because I'm working on other things with deadlines just at the moment. But I just wanted to say, almost all the riflemen who joined the YRs at the very beginning did have the standard C/12000 - C13020 (the numbers fill a battalion) and they would have been the majority at Flers. NCOs at the beginning were naturally likely to have had experience elsewhere, and to have different numbers. I'm not forgetting that there were replacement drafts even earlier so it doesn't rule out Flers. Liz Edited 27 September , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 20 October , 2017 Share Posted 20 October , 2017 (edited) Found and bought in Notts today......... A couple of close-ups...... It's worth quoting what Anthony Eden had to say about the transport in 'Another World 1897-1917'......... 'It was sometimes tempting for riflemen in the line to refer to the transport section as a 'cushy' job. This was not a fair judgment, it is true that the men in the battalion transport did not have to spend days and nights in the line, or go over the top in the literal sense, in a raid or an attack. On the other hand, night after night, they had to bring up rations and supplies, sometimes in appalling conditions of mud and shelling, of delay and constant danger'. Gerald Dennis also describes how, after the great losses on the Somme, the numbers on the transport were reduced and these men returned to duty with their respective companies. Edited 10 December , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 20 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2017 (edited) That's terrific, Mike. Thank you. Lt G E Potter and the Earl of Feversham are very obvious in the middle. I think on Feversham's left (our right) is Sgt Jim Dale, if you look back at the 'Countess' photo on page 4 of this thread. He's on the far right of the front row there. Liz Edited 20 October , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 October , 2017 Share Posted 21 October , 2017 Fantastic photo Mike - what a great find! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike R Posted 24 October , 2017 Share Posted 24 October , 2017 Hi all....as Mark and Liz have already commented...what a great photo! ....and from a personal point of view, quite a surprise! You will see that on page 22 of this thread Mark very kindly loaded up a few photographs of my late grandfather who was in A company (Rifleman Fred Maw)....as a polite reminder he also loaded up photos of his ID Disc that I have, together with his 'KRR' badge. I say Mike's photo came as a surprise as all of the family have confirmed that here he is on this photo (stood immediately behind the Earl of Feversham's right shoulder (slightly to his left as you look at the photo). Can I ask this question to those who are more informed than I?...... I can only assume the duties carried out by the transport section were logistic in nature...were members taken from each company to form this section?....Also, would these duties be carried out alongside day to day 'traditional' infantry duties? I may have a few further questions someone may be able to help me with as I am hopefully collecting a 'lace' postcard later in the day which was sent by him from a military hospital to his then fiancé informing her that he had been wounded...my apologies in advance for imposing on you but perhaps from the date etc you can perhaps deduce some idea of where this may have happened.??? (Apparently I need a microscope to read the card as he had endeavoured to write as much as possible on the reverse!!!!!) Wish I had found the photo, Mike!!!!!!....Thanks for loading it on to this thread. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 October , 2017 Share Posted 24 October , 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Mike R said: Hi all....as Mark and Liz have already commented...what a great photo! ....and from a personal point of view, quite a surprise! You will see that on page 22 of this thread Mark very kindly loaded up a few photographs of my late grandfather who was in A company (Rifleman Fred Maw)....as a polite reminder he also loaded up photos of his ID Disc that I have, together with his 'KRR' badge. I say Mike's photo came as a surprise as all of the family have confirmed that here he is on this photo (stood immediately behind the Earl of Feversham's right shoulder (slightly to his left as you look at the photo). .. Wish I had found the photo, Mike!!!!!!....Thanks for loading it on to this thread. Mike Mike, Here you go with a crop from Mike R's Transport Section photo alongside your photos of Rfn Maw ... There is a little distortion in the Tpt Sectn image as Mike (mrfrank) has taken the shot obliquely. Cheers, Mark Edited 25 October , 2017 by MBrockway Got my Mikes crossed! Apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 24 October , 2017 Share Posted 24 October , 2017 Mike, As I've now got the photo out of the frame for cleaning - if you PM me with your e-mail address I'll send you a full image together with a better close-up of your grandfather. Fortunately, the photo itself remains in great condition. I'd already acquired one of the Scovell company images (of C) a few years ago and I'm sure these must have all been taken on the same day just immediately before their move to France. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike R Posted 25 October , 2017 Share Posted 25 October , 2017 Mike, As you are aware I have now been in touch by PM and would like to thank you for your help and input with this...it is really appreciated. My thanks also to Mark for taking time out again to place the relevant 'cropped' photos on this thread. Not sure if this is of any interest to anyone but I now have a 'lace' postcard sent from my grandfather to his then fiancé (my grandmother) advising her that he had been wounded after 'old fritz' had decided to strafe them whilst holding the ______line??? The postcard is sent from the First Canadian Hospital and dated June 15th 1917?? I am still trying to make out most of the very small writing with the help of a microscope but nonetheless quite something to have such a tangible item from the day... Regards to all. Mike Randerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 25 October , 2017 Share Posted 25 October , 2017 10 minutes ago, Mike R said: Not sure if this is of any interest to anyone but I now have a 'lace' postcard sent from my grandfather to his then fiancé (my grandmother) advising her that he had been wounded after 'old fritz' had decided to strafe them whilst holding the ______line??? The postcard is sent from the First Canadian Hospital and dated June 15th 1917?? I am still trying to make out most of the very small writing with the help of a microscope but nonetheless quite something to have such a tangible item from the day... Regards to all. Mike Randerson Mike R, I might make it more legible via my graphics software jiggery-pokery if you send me a high resolution scan. You have my e-mail address and I'm very happy to help Was he still in the Yeoman Rifles at this stage? Apologies but I've forgotten his chronology and when he transferred out. If he was, then we can have a dig in the war diary for aircraft attacks. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 20 November , 2017 Share Posted 20 November , 2017 Regarding the photo of the Transport Section I recently found, I was just reassembling after giving it a good clean when I noticed the original picture framer's writing inside the gilt-slip as follows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 20 November , 2017 Share Posted 20 November , 2017 (edited) .....I'm fairly certain the original owner was therefore Fawcett and is almost certainly a member of the Tnsp section and in this photo. I've checked the medal rolls and there are two Fawcetts with a C number prefix. John Fawcett C/12711, medal roll confirms 21st KRRC and commissioned in early 1918 - killed in action in May 1918 with the Yorkshire Regiment. CWGC have him of Lowlands Farm, Yarm on Tees. I think he's a strong candidate! The other is Frederick Fawcett C/12575, with little amplifying info on the medal card. In an effort to possibly identify the individual in the photo, does anyone have any further information on these two soldiers or better still an image (not too hopeful on that front!) Mike Edited 20 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 (edited) I thought I'd added images of the Scovell C Coy image to this thread a long time ago, but on re-reading the thread it seems I didn't so here goes....... Assuming I have this right, the C Coy officers L-R: Lt Henry T Turner Lt Robert Anthony Eden Capt Lancelot Frederick Oyston Honey Capt Joe Pitt? (absent on the officer group photo?) Lt Collingwood Forster Thorp Lt John Newton Waldy Lt Denis John Yeaman Edited 30 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 (edited) In the first image here - and maybe it's just me - but I think the young looking chap in the 2nd row down, 8 in from the left, bears more than a passing resemblance to the image of Gerald Dennis on the cover of my copy of 'A Kitchener Man's Bit'. If anyone wants me to attempt a crop of a particular individual or area please PM me. Edited 30 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 (edited) Closer shots of the front row SNCOs.........(edit: moving R-L from Lt Turner: RSM Taylor, CSM Kent, Unidentified, Sgt Green, Sgt Carmichael, Unidentified. Edited 6 December , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 30 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2017 It's great to have C Company on the thread, with a few familiar faces - thank you, Mike. I couldn't swear to your ID of Dennis, but you may well be right. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 Nice close up of the SNCO's - notice how the warrant officers wear the corded boss 'cherry' as their cap badge the same as the officers. Wearing the Sam Brown belt was normally the preserve of the RSM, but I cannot quite tell if his sleeve insignia is a crown or the Royal Arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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