21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Alwyn

It said 7th Bn on the Medal Roll.  He could have been in both, as well as 21st.  

The trouble with posting all these details on the post-21st Bn service here is that this is a thread devoted to that battalion, and focus on  your father's subsequent service would be better placed where you started, here, though you need to put 'KRRC' in the title to attract the right attention.  However, it still seems as though the originals of these two documents need to be seen.

 

Liz

[MBrockway]

On 13/02/2018 at 00:47, MBrockway said:

..

Forces War Records gives another MH106 hit for 'C/1210 Rfn A Todd, KRRC' admitted to hospital in 1918.  If Alwyn has access to the individual record, then the Archive Reference will give the MH106 Piece Number at TNA for that later hospital admission and again, I would advise getting the original and not relying on the FWR's often dubious transcriptions.

..

HTH

Mark

 

 

2 hours ago, Alwyn Todd said:

I have just found another record of my father  in Forces War Record in 1918.

 

It seems to say that he was then in the 16th Battalion. You Liz had found him in the 7th Battalion so somewhere he was moved. I get more confused !

 

Alwyn

 

Hopefully you found this as a result of it being drawn to your attention two days ago? 

 

It is certainly possible Todd was moved to 16/KRRC after time in both 21/KRRC and 7/KRRC, but we would generally then expect that to be recorded in the medal roll and I can confirm Liz is 100% correct: Todd's medal roll entry only mentions 21/KRRC and 7/KRRC.

 

Another strong possibility is a Forces War Record transcription error, or simply a mistake in the original Medical Admissions Register.

 

I would certainly recommend getting images of the original documents, but with the clear proviso that you may not find much additional information thereon.

 

Here's the National Archive catalogue entry for your second FWR result:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C544701

 

This register covers just over six weeks.  If you contact the National Archives you can request them to locate which page C/12210 Todd appears on and give you a quotation for a digital copy.  This has a non-refundable fee of £8.40 as well as whatever they quote you for the copying.  I'd certainly try and cheekily see if they'll do page checks for BOTH your MH 106 documents (see higher up) for a single fee of £8.40

 

See this video explaining all ...

https://youtu.be/3WGgt9kHVFs

 

Incidentally if Todd was in 16/KRRC, he would have been an Old Comrade of my grandfather - that was his battalion for the latter half of the War.

 

Mark

 

[timbo58]

I am surprised no one Pm'd me with any possible transcription errors as I'm always keen to get those sorted.

 

However far from it being 'common' for there to be transcription errors on the MH106 work we have done at FWR, I have seen precious little & even less that was actually an error with the transcription rather than the original record source, although with over a million there is always going to be an error eventually of course, so I'm grateful these are pointed out.

 

The record, whilst exceptionally faint, shows the words for bullet wound clearly, so it's not an mis interpretation.

I can see where the A was attached to the number incorrectly it seems blurred in from another column it doesn't show a C either however.

As for railway company -no idea, possibly came from the 2nd column again where a scrawl of 'Rifa' is which I would presume means Rifle xxx or somesuch.

This will be removed.

 

 

 

 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Timbo58

I'm afraid I've never used FWR nor do I know you, that's why I didn't pm you.  I'll blame my honourable friend Mr Brockway! 

He seems to be entirely on the right lines re Railway Company, btw - it clearly was a transcription error, one way or the other, but we all know how these things happen.

 

I can't read the original book scan you've posted, unfortunately.

 

Liz.

[Alwyn Todd]

Just a thought on reference to Railway Company. Could it have any connection with the Railway Operating Division  of the Royal Engineers who according to Wikipedia their first line was the section between Hazebrouck and Ypes. I presume they carried wounded back on their return trips but as my father was injured after only a few months at Plugsreet Wood it is a long shot.

Alwyn

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello again Alwyn

No, because your father wasn't in the RE, he was in the Yeoman Rifles, and we know he was in A Company.  If I have understood Timbo correctly, he doesn't know how 'Railway' was arrived at in the transcription, because what's written there is more like 'Rif', and he says he is going to remove it (I am sorry I did not know we had someone on the forum who runs FWR).  It would be really useful if Timbo would post a closeup of the relevant lines is that possible, TImbo?

 

Liz

[timbo58]

Hi, 

I don't know why you can't see the image, it shows clearly on my screen.

The picture is exceptionally blurry when zoomed in however, however I've asked a colleague to see if he can clip that line only.

 

The word couldn't be railway in my opinion either so it's been removed from FWRs record.

 

 

 

The vast majority of errors in this colleciton are in the original however -everything ever notified to me (apart from this one to be fair)  has been true to the original image.

My Great Uncle has the wrong  1st initial  in one record entry despite being in the same CCS different ward for different wound treatments on the same 24 hour period!

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

timbo - are you wanting to receive reports of FWR MH106 transcription errors in general?  It would be nice to get those on my own grandfather's entries corrected.

 

 

re the image: obviously the image is present, but it is too blurred to make a viable attempt at seeing what the manuscript actually says.  A clear zoomed-in crop would be very welcome.

Cheers,

Mark

 

Edited 23 February , 2018 by MBrockway

[timbo58]

Of course.

I can, time permitting of course, get anything corrected that is incorrect on the transcription, so please by all means send me anything.

I can also  (although the standards people don't like doing this) get an extra field of data placed if the transcription is true to an incorrect original entry but still incorrect factually.

We're pretty pleased with MH106 given it's awful legibility and have worked very hard to get transcriptions spot on, mindful of the fact we can't show the images on the website and I think it's certainly pretty accurate over all.

 

When we first started doing them I was on this forum every day sending images so forum users could verify for themselves how accurate the transcriptions were/are.

I think we have had an issue with entrain/detrian fields being the wrong way round in a batch once which turned out to be an uploading issue rather than transcription  but the guys here noticed and it was fixed in a trice.

 

I've added the A todd single line from the 2 page ledger, hopefully it can now be viewed.

We try lots of different colour & sharpness filters but with the best will in the world, the damn things weren't meant to be a record for more than the duration in all probability!

 

Edited 23 February , 2018 by timbo58

[Alwyn Todd]

Thanks for that. With a bit of copying and then using further enhancements I can manage to read it just.

 

Alwyn

[Margrave]

I’m new to this, hope it is relevant to your thread. I have been trying to find out more about my grandfather’s brother than is available through Ancestry. Last week I came across this source and shortly after this thread. Even though it seemed unlikely to help I thought I’d better read it before contacting you which has taken me most evenings since then. Low & behold on page 14 there he was – John Johnson Cranidge. All I knew from Ancestry was that he joined 21^st in1915 and died in the 12^th in 1918 with no indication when he moved and so no way of knowing where he actually served. Your information says he was with 21^st until it disbanded and that he was wounded. I would be very interested in seeing the source information about this if you can easily provide the link (or other route). Also I’m puzzled as to how he could be recorded as both missing and wounded – how could they know?

As Paul says on page 19 he was the third youngest child of Peter & Caroline. Two others survived the war, Charles - my grandfather - who joined the Yorkshire Dragoons (Queens Own) and arrived in France in July 1915 and Margrave (I’m his namesake) who joined the Royal engineers. Another brother Joseph died aged 38 in 1918 in their home town of Crowle – have not been able to find a cause which might indicate whether it was from wounds. My wife and I stumbled upon the 1914 poppy display at the Tower and were subsequently able to arrange for his name to be read out on 6^th November. John’s namesake, my uncle, is still alive. Unfortunately he has no information (or pictures)  about his uncles. His father, like many soldiers as far as I can tell, didn’t talk much about the war or about close family or friends that died.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Welcome to the forum, Margrave.  I'm impressed that you read through the thread before posting, not many do!

 

The post about your great-uncle you referred to is here, just for convenience. I've looked back at my file and I think it was entirely based on his CWGC entry and Ancestry information.  It sounds as if you may only have seen his Medal Index Card on Ancestry - have you still got access to the site? 

 

My info was from his military record, which is one of the minority that survived. It says he was posted to the 12th on 16 March 1918 and records him  'wounded and missing'  (a frequently-used phrase when no one knows what's happened to him but there were a lot of casualties, since there's no other reason he'd go missing but they weren't yet 100% sure he was dead) on 21 March, then 'Accepted as dead' 29 March.

 

His casualty form also states that he was wounded in the arm on 4 August 1917, serving with 21st Bn, was in hospital in Rouen and Etaples and granted leave for a week 12-23 October.

 

I think Paul's  information  was based on local Crowle research.

 

Btw re his brother Joseph, his death can't have been from wounds - or not directly - if he is not on the CWGC website, although men continue to be added whose deaths are found to be attributable to the war.  Could it have been flu?

 

Liz

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Margrave said:

I’m new to this, hope it is relevant to your thread. I have been trying to find out more about my grandfather’s brother than is available through Ancestry. Last week I came across this source and shortly after this thread. Even though it seemed unlikely to help I thought I’d better read it before contacting you which has taken me most evenings since then. Low & behold on page 14 there he was – John Johnson Cranidge. All I knew from Ancestry was that he joined 21^st in1915 and died in the 12^th in 1918 with no indication when he moved and so no way of knowing where he actually served. Your information says he was with 21^st until it disbanded and that he was wounded. I would be very interested in seeing the source information about this if you can easily provide the link (or other route). Also I’m puzzled as to how he could be recorded as both missing and wounded – how could they know?

As Paul says on page 19 he was the third youngest child of Peter & Caroline. Two others survived the war, Charles - my grandfather - who joined the Yorkshire Dragoons (Queens Own) and arrived in France in July 1915 and Margrave (I’m his namesake) who joined the Royal engineers. Another brother Joseph died aged 38 in 1918 in their home town of Crowle – have not been able to find a cause which might indicate whether it was from wounds. My wife and I stumbled upon the 1914 poppy display at the Tower and were subsequently able to arrange for his name to be read out on 6^th November. John’s namesake, my uncle, is still alive. Unfortunately he has no information (or pictures)  about his uncles. His father, like many soldiers as far as I can tell, didn’t talk much about the war or about close family or friends that died.

J J Cranidge's war gratuity shows he was paid for 27 months qualifying service. This indicates enlistment in the month from 30 December 1915.
 

He went missing in action and was later accepted as having been killed.

Craig

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Craig.  Yes - that's on his main record.  He enlisted on 9.12. 1915.

 

Liz

[Margrave]

Liz & Craig, thanks for your replies. Yes I still have access to Ancestry and from there had 3 original records until today when I checked again. The old records I had were his medal record (just 2 medals), his signing up (attestation?) original and the CWG entry. Today I found a new item - 'Register of soldiers effects' which amounted to £20.3.4 plus maybe £12.10.0 gratuity. There was also another members photo described as a gravestone in Pozieres which is unfortunately not legible. I can't see anything about transfer to the 12th or his wounding in 1917. Would the record of his wounding in 1918 indicate which action he was involved in at the time? (St Quentin, Vaux/Rumignon, Rosieres?) Is there another way to find his military record?

Is there a way to get intouch with Paul to find out his source of material from Crowle?

thanks

Margrave

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Margrave

Just to take the record first...

I recall that when I first looked at a military record on Ancestry - it was the one belonging to the man who started me off on all this, John Thomas Hardcastle, my great-aunt's fiance - I only found the attestation and was mystified when Mark Brockway produced a great long transcription of his record. 

 

The reason was that I had failed to move on to the next page, and the next, which had all these other documents - casualty forms and whatnot.  It's also worth going backwards just to check that the attestation was the first document.  Could you perhaps be making the same mistake?  I forget what it is you have to click - an arrow or just a next-page number - but once you look for it I think it's fairly obvious.

 

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Just been to look and there's an arrow halfway down each side of the page to go backwards and forwards.  That's what you want.

The only way we can get in touch with Paul is by private message and it will only work if he is getting notifications to his email, as he hasn't been on the forum since last summer.  I have just sent him a message asking if he would please come back and join the conversation. EDIT and I'm glad to say he's just replied to say he'll try to come on here tomorrow.

 

To send a pm, hover over the member's name or avatar and a panel comes up with a summary of their profile and three options, the left hand one being to send a message, so you click on that.  The right-hand one enables you to see the person's recent posts.  I've never tried the middle one!

 

Liz

Edited 3 March , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Margrave

I wouldn't worry about the member's photograph, as it is of the Pozieres memorial and there are plenty of better ones available, though of course you would like the panel on which his name is carved.  There's no gravestone, as his body was never found. If you go to the CWGC website instead of accessing the information via Ancestry, they have some information and a photo of the Pozieres memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1579400/cranidge,-john-johnson/

 

Liz

[Wilts Rover]

Hi Margrave (and thank you getting in touch Liz)

 

I am the author and publisher of the website Crowle and Ealand Soldiers http://www.crowlesoldiers.co.uk that contains all the information i could find on the men of Crowle, Ealand and the village of North Axholme who lost their lives in the Great War. You may have already seen Jack (as he was known) entry on there, but for ease of reference and to let others know who we are talking about I will post it below. The image at the foot of the post is the inscription to him on the memorial lectern in St Oswald's Church, Crowle.

John Johnston (Jack) Cranidge

Rifleman, C/12983, 12th (Service) Battalion, Kings Royal Rifle Corps, died of wounds, 29th March 1918, aged 23.

Born at Crowle in June 1895, Jack was the third youngest of the eight children of Peter and Caroline Cranidge (nee King). His father was running a maltings at the time of Jack’s birth but shortly afterwards became the landlord of the Mason’s Arms in the High Street.

When he enlisted in the army at Crowle on 9th December 1915, Jack was working as a grocers’ assistant at the Crowle Co-operative Stores. He originally asked to enlist as a driver in the motor transport section of the Army Service Corps. Instead the army also posted him to join Ralph Jaques in D Company, 21st (Service) Battalion (Yeoman Rifles), King’s Royal Rifle Corps.

Jack served with the Yeoman Rifles in their first campaign at Flers, where Ralph Jaques lost his life, and in subsequent actions at Messines and the

Menin Road

. In the summer of 1917 he spent a short time in hospital in Etaples, suffering from a swelling of his joints, but was well enough to rejoin his unit in November 1917 prior to their transfer to Italy. The Yeoman Rifles only spent a short time in Italy, returning back to France in February 1918, just in time to be disbanded in the March 1918 reorganisation of the army. Following the reorganisation Jack was posted to the 12th (Service) Battalion, KRRC.

Five days later, on 21st March, the 12th KRRC were in reserve on the Somme, between Vaux and Rumignon, when Operation Michael broke through. The unit then played a major part in the defensive actions that followed, known as the First Battle of the Somme as the British tried to hold the massive German attack.  Covering the retirement of the forward divisions, the 12th KRRC held their position to check the enemy advance to the Somme River on the 23rd March and then fell back to assist in holding the Somme crossings until ordered to retire on the 24th. On the 26th and 27th March they held off more attacks during in the Battle of Rosières, before going into reserve at the end of the month.

Although the army declared Jack missing in action on 21st March, news of what happened to him had actually already reached Crowle in a letter from his friend Rifleman Arthur Wells, another Crowle soldier in the KRRC. Arthur said that he had been told that Jack had died shortly after being hit on the head by a piece of shrapnel, either on the 28th or 29th March. His body was never recovered and John Cranidge was accepted dead by his unit on 29th March. One of the 885 men the KRRC lost in the retreat from Vaux. He is commemorated with many of them on the Pozieres Memorial to the Missing.

Despite the news from France John’s family never gave up hope and it was only in July that they decided to hold a memorial service for him at St Oswald’s. John was the third member of the Church Choir to die in the war and it was during his memorial service that the Vicar announced that the Church wished to do something to commemorate them. Initially it was conceive to create a memorial window in the chancel ‘above where the three members used to sit’, but the fund was such that they are now commemorated on a memorial lectern in the church.

Four of Jack’s brothers also served in the War, one of whom, Margrave, was badly gassed. Arthur Wells was wounded in the action and sent home to LincolnHospital.

[Wilts Rover]

Now to give you some more detail on my sources.

 

Like you my starting point was all I could find on Ancestry and the CWGC and then the fantastic work Liz had already done on this thread. The information about the actions he was involved in came from the unit war diaries (that I had to pay for) but you can now access with your Ancestry subscription.

 

The British Newspaper Library was closed at the time, it was during their move from Collindale to Boston Spa, so I went looking for further details in the relevant copies of the Scunthorpe Star at Scunthorpe Library, Goole Times at Goole Library but of more relevance, the copies of the Crowle Advertiser and Epworth Bells held at Epworth Mechanics Institute Library. A wonderful place and invaluable to anyone researching anything about the Isle of Axholme http://epworthmechanics.wixsite.com/epworthmechanics

 

Today the Bells and Advertiser are the same newspaper but in the early 1900's were different newspapers, that carried quite a lot of the same news. So sometimes the death of a Crowle soldier is mentioned in the Bells and an Epworth soldier in the Advertiser, but not always. Which was frustrating as the Library have a full run of the Bells for the war period but not the Advertiser.

 

At the time there was nothing online at the https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ for the Epworth Bells but some stories of local soldiers could be found in the Hull Daily Mail. I believe they have now began to put the Bells online, although not yet the Great War period the last time I looked. If you have not already been on there it is worthwhile you looking as there is a great story about Jack being charged with poaching at Eastoft (he was given the benefit of the doubt).

 

I wont post the image I have of that cutting on here, as it is not really relevant to this thread, but what you will want to see is the clipping from the Crowle Advertiser on 20th April 1918 which has Arthur Well's letter. I didn't photograph the story on his memorial service and announcement of the fund for the members of the choir, but that appears on 20th July 1918. You may find it interesting not just for Jack but also for your namesake Margrave:

Edited 4 March , 2018 by Wilts Rover

[Wilts Rover]

Two more pieces.

 

I have so far given four talks to Crowle and Ealand Heritage Society https://www.facebook.com/crowleandealandheritagesociety/ on my research. At the first one a local gentleman came up to me and said he had a list that the Crowle Advertiser published at the end of the war of all Crowle men who had served in the war. I have yet to find a printed contemporary copy of this but I reproduce that relevant to your family from the digital copy I have. This may explain why James is not mentioned on the CWGC. The mark next to Jack indicates he died in the conflict.

 

At the time I wondered how and why Jack and Ralph Jaques would want to join a battalion from North Yorkshire. Why not join the Lincolnshire Regiment or King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry as most local men did? How did they know about the 21st KRRC? This (extremely badly photographed even when enhanced) cutting from the Epworth Bells in December 1915 may go some way to partially answering that.

[Wilts Rover]

Finally, it may be of interest to you that Crowle & Ealand Heritage Society are intending to put on an exhibition later in the year commemorating Jack and the other local men who served in the war. I have offered all my research, the photographs, maps etc, that I have for this, so watch their website, Facebook page for further details.

 

I understand also that there is to be a publication on Crowle and Ealand men who lost their lives in the war coming out sometime this year. I am not involved in this as the author wished to do all their own research, so I was surprised to hear that a notice in a local newsletter a couple of weeks ago about this publication noted that it contained information taken from my website! You and I may both await this publication with interest.

 

I hope this has been useful too you.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Paul

Many thanks for all this - Margrave has a fair bit to read when he comes back!  I hope you get a proper credit when the publication comes out. These things can be more than a little annoying...

 

I'd just like to add a bit re your point about why men joined this battalion.  Though it was raised by the Earl of Feversham in North Yorkshire, it was stated from the very beginning that it would be for men from the whole area of the Northern Command, including Lincolnshire.  The notice  announcing the new battalion was placed in The Times and major regional newspapers of the north, such as the Yorkshire Post, in October and picked up by many local newspapers.  The relevant paragraph read:

 

'It has been decided by Lord Kitchener and the Army Council to raise a battalion of farmers in the area of the Northern Command, which comprises the counties of Northumberland, Durham, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Staffordshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and Rutland.  The battalion is to be called the 21^st Service Battalion the King’s Royal Rifle Corps (Yeoman Rifles) and will be known as the “Yeoman Rifles”.'  

 

As you say the Epworth Bells  may well have been what inspired the local men to enlist in the YRs.

 

Liz

Edited 4 March , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Guest]

I am not sure how this dialogue works but can anyone help me with any information on R/27542 Rifleman Frederick Thomas Miller, 21st Battalion KRRC. He died of wounds at No 11 Casualty Clearing Station, Godevaersfelde on 14 August 1917. I have seen the War Diary of the Battalion but it does not list any likely action in which he might have been wounded. He was my father's eldest brother, aged 19 at his death. One family story was that he was a Signaller  - Ed Miller

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Welcome to the forum, Ed, and thanks for telling us about your uncle.  Have you got hold of 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' by Gerald V Dennis?  He was a signaller but I don't think he mentions him - not that that proves anything, and regardless of that, he does give a good picture of life in the battalion, at least from the point of view of a sober schoolmasterly young man!

 

If you look back to this post you'll see I listed the men I had recorded who died in the first two weeks of August 1917.  This list didn't include your uncle, so thanks for helping to improve it.  What it does show is the fact that men were getting killed and wounded all the time, even when there was no 'action'.  The ones at the top of the list were the result of the action at Pilckem Ridge, after that they were from shelling, or perhaps occasionally a sniper.

 

Liz