21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[Liz in Eastbourne]

On 8/6/2014 at 10:53, MBrockway said:

At Liz's suggestion, here are the two officers from Fiona's photo with the officer from the Aldershot 5 Platoon formal group alongside ...

21-KRRC - unidentified platoon, undated (via Pal Fiona fox29) - Officer (left).jpg21-KRRC - unidentified platoon, undated (via Pal Fiona fox29) - Officer (right).jpg21-KRRC - B Coy, 5 Platoon, Aldershot 1916 - Officer.jpg

Thank you very much, Mark.

I've been trying since Fiona sent me that picture to match the baby-faced officer on the left, but can't. I wonder if he came out when they were in France. Anyway, he doesn't help me identify the platoon, unfortunately, though perhaps someone else will know who he is.

BUT

I can believe the officer on the right is the same one as the 5 Platoon man you've put below, who is, I think, Meysey-Thompson.

He certainly looks more like him than my other candidates, as B Company subalterns, Baxter

and Leatham.

Sorry - these images could be improved upon by someone better at it. But looking at the original group photo from which they come, I am sure they are not that man.

Liz

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photos

[EdLJ]

Hello All.

I am researching Rifleman Soliman Bayliss, of the 21st Battalion of KRRC, R 12523.

He was killed on 12/06/17, has no known grave and is commemorated on the Menin Gate.

I recently bought, from the National Archive, the digitised version of the 21st Battalion war diary for the year including June 1917, but, unfortunately, the only month missing was June 1917!

They have reviewed the original material in their possession and find that it not present there either.

Does anybody know where the 21st Battalion KRRC were on 12/06/17, I am assuming Messines, when the big mines went up.

If anybody has maps of their disposition, I would be very grateful to see them.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Ed

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Ed

It was after the big mines went up - the battalion had moved on to Ravine Wood and experienced much heavier casualties on 12th June than they had done in the Messines battle the previous week, from shells and machine guns. Both Anthony Eden in Another World and G V Dennis in A Kitchener Man's Bit mention this. The KRRC Annals have nothing to say on the subject.

I do have a few notes on Rfn Bayliss even though he wasn't one of the 'originals' for whom I started the thread. He joined the battalion on 12th Oct 1916, after the battles at Flers and Gird Ridge had left it terribly depleted and large new drafts arrived. I guess you've found his military record? I thought 'Soliman' was a mis-spelling of 'Solomon', as his father's name was spelt in the traditional way on the 1919 relatives' form. My notes also suggest '12523' without 'R', as given on the CWGC record, is the correct number - but I may be wrong, I haven't re-checked this.

Liz

[EdLJ]

Thanks very much for your information Liz.

Indeed, I did find his military record, and it makes very sad reading. All that came home was a couple of razors, handkerchiefs and a pack of playing cards.

I'm sorry if I confused with the 'R' before his number, I wanted it to denote 'regimental'.

Do you have the regiment's war diary for the month of June 1917, and if so, how did you obtain it?

Thanks again for your help.

Cheers

Ed

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Ed

No, I haven't got the June 1917 war diary - if the NA said they haven't got it and that's why it's not digitised I fear it must be lost. I had the same problem with a number of appendices which I hoped would bring clarity to their very scrappy war diary for Sept - Oct 1916, but they are lost too. I don't think I ever asked the RGJ Museum in WInchester but I doubt if they'd have it, though it might be worth a try.

All I know about that month is from the two books I have mentioned, which I recommend if you can get hold of them.

If you search on CWGC for 21/KRRC deaths 12-15 June 1917 you'll find there are indeed about twice as many as for the period 6-7 June.

I am no expert on numbers but you don't put R on to denote 'Regimental' - certain categories have R, others don't, and the original Yeoman Riflemen recruited in late 1915 have a C/ prefix and range from C/12000 to about C/13100. That was why I checked it, as you do sometimes see the C missed off by mistake and the number is within the range. You'll find other threads on this subject.

Liz

[MBrockway]

I have the same issue with my own copy of the war diary :-(

KRRC Chronicle doesn't add much I'm afraid ...

Relieved 13/Middlesex (73rd Brigade, 24th Division) in the line on 11 Jun 1917. Exact location is not explicit, but appears to be in the RAVINE WOOD - VERHAEST FARM area just west of HOLLEBEKE.

"We consolidated the line and the construction of new trenches was commenced. During the whole of this period the Battalion was heavily bombarded and suffered heavy casualties. On June 14th the Battalion on our left attacked and captured Olive Trench. Our front line Company also established posts about 200 yards in advance of our front line. We were relieved on June 16th by the 26th Battalion Royal Fusiliers and proceeded to support trenches."
[KRRC Chronicle 1917 p.226]

OLIVE TRENCH runs into the SE corner of RAVINE WOOD from the E. Presumably 21/KRRC were to the S of this if the battalion to their left were in action there.

Some good maps from the 73rd Brigade War Diary showing the 24th Division objectives are here: 13th Middlesex Regt. - Transcribing War diary along with a transcription of the 13/Middlesex war diary describing their position from which the 21/KRRC relieved them on night of 11/12 Jun.

Mark

Edited 16 January , 2018 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

With respect to 12523 Rfn Soliman BAYLISS's Service Number, it does not have a letter prefix because he enlisted as a Regular for 12 years - 7 with the Colours and 5 with the Reserve - not for the Duration of the War.

Had he survived, he would have continued with the KRRC as a peacetime professional soldier.

Accordingly he was trained in 6/KRRC at Sheerness and was posted to 21/KRRC as a replenishment draft.

Mark

[EdLJ]

Many thanks to both of you. That has added some great, detailed information.

Next time that my friends and I, one is Soliman's great-niece, visit the battlefields, we shall know where to go.

Just to make it entirely clear, I added the 'R' to Soliman's number to make it obvious what it was. Obviously it had the opposite effect!

Thank you yet again for your amazing knowledge and assistance.

Ed

[MBrockway]

Just to make it entirely clear, I added the 'R' to Soliman's number to make it obvious what it was. Obviously it had the opposite effect!

Ed

No worries Ed - unbeknowns to you, the KRRC (and the RB) service number schema made rather exotic use of various letter and number prefixes!

R/xxxxxxx would typically indicate a Kitchener volunteer in the K1-K3 battalions (7th to 13th). The later 'Pals' type KRRC battalions (16th to 21st) raised by organisations (Church Lads Brigade, British Empire League) or individuals (Arts & Crafts, Yeoman Rifles) typically had C/xxxxxx type service numbers.

Regulars had plain numbers with no prefixes.

This is the simplified tip of a very large subject and for which there almost as many exceptions as there are rules!

[trenchtrotter]

Re the image in post 444. Has to be Summer 1916 or later. The wound tripes are visable and were not approved till early July 1916. Unlikely to have been issued soon after the approval. My guess from foliage would be August 1916 / Sept 1916 or if not then it would be Summer 1917?

TT

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Many thanks to both of you. That has added some great, detailed information.

Next time that my friends and I, one is Soliman's great-niece, visit the battlefields, we shall know where to go.

Just to make it entirely clear, I added the 'R' to Soliman's number to make it obvious what it was. Obviously it had the opposite effect!

Thank you yet again for your amazing knowledge and assistance.

Ed

I'm glad Mark came along, Ed, as not only has he much more depth of KRRC knowledge generally, but service numbers aren't my speciality at all - the one thing I do have is a sort of knee-jerk reaction to any number beginning C/12*** for the 'original' Yeomen, and to a lesser extent C/13***, but the picture soon became much more complex, especially after September 15 1916.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Re the image in post 444. Has to be Summer 1916 or later. The wound tripes are visable and were not approved till early July 1916. Unlikely to have been issued soon after the approval. My guess from foliage would be August 1916 / Sept 1916 or if not then it would be Summer 1917?

TT

Thanks TT, that seems to narrow it down. August or early September 1916 seem the most likely dates for it then, to fit with the circumstantial evidence. As Hardcastle never returned to the battalion after being wounded at Flers, I can't see why the family would have a summer 1917 photo without him...unless it turned out to be the 2nd battalion after all, which I also find intrinsically unlikely.

We still need to identify the officers and men - we're looking at some other photos to try to select Hardcastle.

Liz

[Wilts Rover]

Liz

With regard to the two Crowle men from the Yeoman Rifles; C/12550 Rifleman Ralph Jaques and C/12983 John Johnston Cranidge, you may be interested to know that coincidently they are two of the three members of Crowle Church Choir who died during the war and had a memorial lectern purchased to commemorate them. To add only slightly more detail to what you already have:

Born at Crowle in 1888, Ralph was the third son of Walter and Jane Jaques (nee Farthing). The family lived at Commonside where his father was a farmer. With his other brothers helping out on the farm, Ralph went to work at Fox's Brewery. Starting as an office clerk, by the time he enlisted he was the manager of the bottling store. He was also a leading member of Crowle Choral Society and Crowle Town Tennis Club.

Born at Crowle in June 1895, John was the third youngest of the eight surviving children of Peter and Caroline Cranidge (ne King). His father had worked on the railway in the 1880's but was running a maltings at the time of John's birth. Shortly sfterwards he became the landlord of the Mason's Arms in the High Street.

When he enlisted in the army at Crowle on 9th December 1915, aged 20 years and 9 months, John was working as a grocers' assistant in the Co-operative Stores on the High Street. He originally asked to enlist as a driver in the motor transport section of the Army Service Corps. Instead the army posted him to join Ralph Jaques in D Company of the Yeoman Rifles.

Hope this is useful

Paul

[DaveBrigg]

Earlier this year Liz and Mark gave me a lot of help on this thread identifying the exact location of the 21st KRRC attack on Flers in September 1916. With your help we managed to film near Delville Wood, and the results are included in the commemorative video here http://vimeo.com/99930542 It's about 11 mins in, referring to Joe Neall. We were there on a windy day, which brought its own challenges.

The students were particularly excited to find shrapnel balls and larger pieces of shrapnel in the field next to the road and have given these to the town museum for an exhibition about local casualties which will open in September. We wouldn't have been able to include so much detail without your help, so on behalf of the group can I thank you again for sharing your knowledge.

[MBrockway]

Earlier this year Liz and Mark gave me a lot of help on this thread identifying the exact location of the 21st KRRC attack on Flers in September 1916. With your help we managed to film near Delville Wood, and the results are included in the commemorative video here http://vimeo.com/99930542 It's about 11 mins in, referring to Joe Neall. We were there on a windy day, which brought its own challenges.

The students were particularly excited to find shrapnel balls and larger pieces of shrapnel in the field next to the road and have given these to the town museum for an exhibition about local casualties which will open in September. We wouldn't have been able to include so much detail without your help, so on behalf of the group can I thank you again for sharing your knowledge.

A fantastic piece of work. I'm so proud to have been able to help with it. Tell your team 'Very well done!'

Cheers,

Mark

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Earlier this year Liz and Mark gave me a lot of help on this thread identifying the exact location of the 21st KRRC attack on Flers in September 1916. With your help we managed to film near Delville Wood, and the results are included in the commemorative video here http://vimeo.com/99930542 It's about 11 mins in, referring to Joe Neall. We were there on a windy day, which brought its own challenges.

The students were particularly excited to find shrapnel balls and larger pieces of shrapnel in the field next to the road and have given these to the town museum for an exhibition about local casualties which will open in September. We wouldn't have been able to include so much detail without your help, so on behalf of the group can I thank you again for sharing your knowledge.

It's very impressive work, Dave, many congratulations from me too. I am also very glad to have been able to contribute a little help - the officer's diary gave a bit of immediacy, didn't it. I've just watched the first 12-ish minutes so far, to the end of Joe Neall's bit, but can say it's an engaging format with the men's homes being pointed out and then their military lives and final days. It is really moving to see how engaged your students became.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz

With regard to the two Crowle men from the Yeoman Rifles; C/12550 Rifleman Ralph Jaques and C/12983 John Johnston Cranidge, you may be interested to know that coincidently they are two of the three members of Crowle Church Choir who died during the war and had a memorial lectern purchased to commemorate them. To add only slightly more detail to what you already have:

Born at Crowle in 1888, Ralph was the third son of Walter and Jane Jaques (nee Farthing). The family lived at Commonside where his father was a farmer. With his other brothers helping out on the farm, Ralph went to work at Fox's Brewery. Starting as an office clerk, by the time he enlisted he was the manager of the bottling store. He was also a leading member of Crowle Choral Society and Crowle Town Tennis Club.

Born at Crowle in June 1895, John was the third youngest of the eight surviving children of Peter and Caroline Cranidge (ne King). His father had worked on the railway in the 1880's but was running a maltings at the time of John's birth. Shortly sfterwards he became the landlord of the Mason's Arms in the High Street.

When he enlisted in the army at Crowle on 9th December 1915, aged 20 years and 9 months, John was working as a grocers' assistant in the Co-operative Stores on the High Street. He originally asked to enlist as a driver in the motor transport section of the Army Service Corps. Instead the army posted him to join Ralph Jaques in D Company of the Yeoman Rifles.

Hope this is useful

Paul

Many thanks, Paul, for giving us more information. For other readers of the thread, this and the following posts contain my original references to the two Crowle men:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151966&p=1812648

That's two further reports from Lincolnshire, yours and Dave's - it's very rewarding to see how these researches are interacting with other people's.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I'm seeing ...

• two officers without cuff rank
• a serjeant (possibly a CSM) with Musketry skill at arms badge and two wound stripes on left cuff (see left crop below)
• rifleman on the right hand end of the first standing rank has one wound stripe and possibly a LSGC chevron (see right crop below - right hand edge)
• rifleman sitting at right hand end of front row possibly has a LSGC chevron (see right crop below - bottom left edge)
• possibly a few March 1916 soft service caps, but these could also be well broken down SD caps - see lower crop below - the stitch lines on peak and band are clearly visible
• wooden board held in the centre probably has the unit name chalked on it - graphics tool jiggery-pokery has so far failed to reveal any writing :-(

21-KRRC - unidentified platoon, undated (via Pal Fiona fox29) - CROP 5.jpg 21-KRRC - unidentified platoon, undated (via Pal Fiona fox29) - CROP 4.jpg

21-KRRC - unidentified platoon, undated (via Pal Fiona fox29) - Soft Service Caps detail.jpg

EDIT I'm not 100% certain of the LSGC chevrons. In the crop above, I've darkened the image and increased the contrast, which makes the possible chevrons stand out a little more. If they are indeed LSGC chevrons, then that may give us a 'No Earlier Than' date.

One LSGC chevron would indicate two year's unblemished service, so for the original establishment of the Yeoman Rifles that would be Nov 1917. Of course, any riflemen transferred into 21/KRRC who had enlisted into another battalion earlier than Nov 1915, would be entitled to the badge earlier. Certainly the vast majority of these men do NOT appear to have LSGC chevrons.

I might be able to lift any writing off the wooden board using my graphics software tools if I had a better resolution image. In the version posted, I can get a hint of lettering with my graphics tools, but the resolution is so low, i cannot be sure. Same applies for the LSGC chevrons. Liz has my e-mail address. EDIT - no joy on this so far even on the original :-(

Mark

EDIT: following arrival of a better resolution version of the photo from Fiona, I have replaced the crops above and made some in-line edits to the original text. Mark

I'm going back to the unresolved question of the two group photos I thought John Thomas Hardcastle might be on, the other one being the No 5 Platoon photo. I think I've found Hardcastle on the platoon photo (more on that anon) by comparing it with a family photo and a smaller KRRC group photo Fiona has, yet to be put on the thread. But this picture is not the same group of men as the No 5 Platoon although it may have a few of the same men, including Hardcastle.

I am pondering whether this picture may not be a platoon photo at all but a photo taken of a course or group of specialists from the whole battalion. Could the fact that the sergeant is displaying his musketry badge suggest they may be on a musketry course?

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

group2001web.jpg

Liz and I have been looking at one of the photographs I have found and need help to identify if this photograph is also of No. 5 Platoon. This one looks like it was taken in France and Liz (thanks Liz) thinks probably between May 1916 and Sept 1916. We're not sure if this also has Meysey-Thompson on. If it is then some of men should be on both the earlier picture on this thread and also on this one.

For ease of reference I am bringing this picture back up.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

No takers for my last query...but I am now going to concentrate on John Thomas Hardcastle. It was to find him and his friends that I started this thread four years ago, and thanks to Fiona (whose husband is a cousin of mine, probably second and removed but I'm not very good at those complications) I can now show a photo of him and some friends relaxing at what appears to be a hogroast in France in late spring or summer 1916. The back of the photo is a British postcard, Fiona tells me, but we agree the front appears to be a photo taken in France.

Hardcastle is the chap on the far right with a pipe and tobacco pouch in his hands.

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I think I have found Hardcastle on the 5 Platoon photo, second from front, second from front, but my efforts to select and enlarge him for easier comparison have failed - if anyone can assist please get in touch!

It's even trickier with Fiona's group photograph, but I think there he's second from the back, fourth from right. The hogroast picture was easier not only because it's a smaller group but because he is standing at the same angle as on the family group before the war. in the others we are looking at faces from the front. But he has large, distinctive ears.

I'll post Sue's group photo soon for more identification fun.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Here is the photograph kindly contributed by Sue, who will I hope add any comments she may have. Her grandfather is on the right in the second row from the front, and also enlarged inset.

We have discussed it a bit and don't think it is a platoon or perhaps even company-based group because one or two faces look familiar from other photos Could it be bombers? I think I spot Norman Ward who was on the 7 Platoon photo and was a bomber, as Sue's grandfather was. Here he is.

Liz

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[sue somerset]

I hope those more knowledgeable will be able to shed some light on this photo. In a chapter of my granddad's memoirs he appears to be made a bomber by naively putting his hand up when the company were asked if anyone was good at cricket!! My totally inexperienced naked eye seems to see differences in cap badges and an awful lot of officers - but no Anthony Eden.......

Any thoughts will be most gratefully received.

Sue

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Sue, what you say about how your grandfather came to be a bomber is echoed by Norman Ward's story. This is a post I made on an interesting thread about bombers several years ago:

In Gerald V. Dennis's book A Kitchener Man's Bit (ed Michael Hickes, pub. 1994 MERH books) about the 21st Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps (Yeoman Rifles), formed at Helmsley in Yorkshire, there is this passage:

I asked Bram how he came to be one of the Bombing Section and his explanation as to how the section had been formed was quite amusing. On parade one morning in the good old Helmsley days a Sergeant had asked all cricketers, especially bowlers, to step forward. A number of men, thinking there was going to be a cricket match, stepped forward from the ranks and received the news "You are now Bombers."

This was corroborated by the website for Kirkby Wharfe/ Ulleskelfe WW1 Memorial, where Rifleman Norman Ward, C/12713, of Ulleskelf, is said to have been a member of the Ulleskelfe Cricket Club when he was a clerk at the Prudential and a bomb thrower when he was in the Yeoman Rifles.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

There's another thread about bomb throwing here, with some rather chilling anecdotes. A search on 'bomb thrower' produces a lot of results, but what I am not sure about is whether there could be a bomb-throwers' group across the whole battalion and not just a company, since we appear to have men from B and C companies, at least, in this photograph. Perhaps it is from a training session. Why are there so many officers?

Liz